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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

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Old
01-08-2013, 11:22 AM
  #26
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I agree 100%. In so many sports, conditioning is probably the number 1 thing to have going for you. In something like rugby or MMA, someone can have better skills, and just be useless without the ability to go all game.
Ya, the sociological environments & conditions play a large role in shaping and determining ones approach to any given sport from a psychological perspective, and plays a huge part in determining success. Your term "going all game" sums it up nicely. If you cant beat em in the alley..... desire. Never say die, quit or give up.

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:05 PM
  #27
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I agree 100%. In so many sports, conditioning is probably the number 1 thing to have going for you. In something like rugby or MMA, someone can have better skills, and just be useless without the ability to go all game.

I just think it is a very hard thing to rate based on the eye test. We don't know if those mistakes are mistakes or fatigue. We don't know how much they are exerting each shift. Someone mentioned Bure's long shifts in Florida, and I think that's what made me want to get rid of the category. You can stay out there for endless minutes if you are mostly floating around, 45 seconds can have your legs rubberized and lungs on fire if you go Tazmanian Devil.

It's just hard to rate compared to shooting, passing, physical play is all, and I sort of wanted to wash the board of it, because all these guys, at least at one time, trained like demons. Actually, that's the other thing - conditioning in a player varies from week to week, dependent on injury, time of season... I think all of these guys, at one time, when healthy and hungry, would be 10/10 in endurance/conditioning.... it isn't really a skillset piece, it's a frame of mind, over a long enough duration of training, to achieve a standard.... one that is likely quite close to equal in all top athletes, genetically speaking.
on the other hand, pavel bure was one of the best conditioned NHLers of all time. 5'10/180lbs and he tested as physically the strongest player on the canucks, could skate all day, logged big minutes at ES and on both special teams.

but as you said upthread, all of these guys were big minute guys at their best so maybe it doesn't make sense to compare. i would say, though, that some guys are freaks and for those special few endurance is part of the metric that made them such special players. bure was in unbelievable shape but he wasn't really a freak of nature like chelios or ray bourque. those guys could play 40 minutes of a game if they had to; i think of the guys on this list, only fedorov truly belongs in that category.

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:38 PM
  #28
tombombadil
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
on the other hand, pavel bure was one of the best conditioned NHLers of all time. 5'10/180lbs and he tested as physically the strongest player on the canucks, could skate all day, logged big minutes at ES and on both special teams.

but as you said upthread, all of these guys were big minute guys at their best so maybe it doesn't make sense to compare. i would say, though, that some guys are freaks and for those special few endurance is part of the metric that made them such special players. bure was in unbelievable shape but he wasn't really a freak of nature like chelios or ray bourque. those guys could play 40 minutes of a game if they had to; i think of the guys on this list, only fedorov truly belongs in that category.
Ya, i thought of that about Bure. It's actually what got me going on the "they all were ta one time, it varies from week to week thing"

To tie this in with what Killion just said, if i can hope to do it concisely.....

Not everyone/many who hasn't played or trained at a high level understands that these guys want it on and off the ice. It isn't good enough to go out onto your playing field like a mad dog, the ability to do so is just the icing on the cake after your training. Guys I used ot train with/know all said that the fight is the easy part, it's a product of training. Desire must be exhibited behind the scenes, at meal choices, gyms, etc. Your body will wilt no matter how tough-minded you are, if you haven't pushed it through it's paces in training.

To tie in with Bure - Muhammad Ali said, "Anyone at the top has killed themselves in training at one time in their lives" He's a good example of it, too. He was out of shape in his second career, but his mind and body new what limits could be pushed, so he seemed to be able to 'gut it out' even if his training wasn't as thorough later in life.

Fedorov does appear to be the 3-zone, high-minute guy. How much of that is due to his effortless skating? Other guys are skating through mud compared to him. Was he in better shape, or in similar shape and expending less energy?

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Old
01-08-2013, 12:51 PM
  #29
11MilesPerJohan
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Good lists...I won't comment on all of it, but I def. agree with you when it comes to Sakic for wrist shot and certainly Fedorov had a deadly slap-shot/one-timer...I would just say that you may be slightly underrating Modano's shooting ability. He was pretty good with the one-timer from the half-wall on the PP as well.

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Old
01-08-2013, 08:17 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87center View Post
I remember reading a book back in the 90's that ranked NHL players in several catergories. When they were in their prime how would rank Lindros, Forsberg, Jagr, Fedorov, Bure, Modano, Selanne, Kovalev, Mogilny and Sakic in the following categories.


Slap Shot (Combination of Accuracy and Power)
1) Fedorov
2) Bure
3) Selanne
4) Jagr
5) Sakic
6) Lindros
7) Mogilny
8) Modano
9) Kovalev
10) Forsberg


Thoughts?
Too many to go through, though I see your rankings as very good. Although I do disagree with this slap shot portion. I think Lindros, Modano, and Kovalev should be placed above Selanne, Jagr, and Sakic.

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Old
01-08-2013, 08:38 PM
  #31
BenchBrawl
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I was entering the thread with all the best intentions , but if I'm about to work that hard for hockey history purposes today I'll work on something more important and useful than that.

The thing I'll do is rank them as overall players and careers:

1.Jaromir Jagr
2.Joe Sakic
3.Sergei Fedorov
4.Peter Forsberg
5.Teemu Selanne
6.Eric Lindros
7.Mike Modano
8.Pavel Bure
9.Alexander Mogilny


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-08-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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Old
01-08-2013, 10:49 PM
  #32
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I was entering the thread with all the best intentions , but if I'm about to work that hard for hockey history purposes today I'll work on something more important and useful than that.

The thing I'll do is rank them as overall players and careers:

1.Jaromir Jagr
2.Joe Sakic
3.Sergei Fedorov
4.Peter Forsberg
5.Teemu Selanne
6.Eric Lindros
7.Mike Modano
8.Pavel Bure
9.Alexander Mogilny
Interesting list as far as careers go though it seems strange to put Selanne 5th, Lindros 6th and Modano 7th.

I can see why some would have Forsberg as high as 4th, for playoffs ect.. over Selanne, but then having Lindros over Modano seems to break up that line of thought.

Just curious on the 3 guys I mentioned at 5-7.

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Old
01-09-2013, 01:05 AM
  #33
TAnnala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Interesting list as far as careers go though it seems strange to put Selanne 5th, Lindros 6th and Modano 7th.

I can see why some would have Forsberg as high as 4th, for playoffs ect.. over Selanne, but then having Lindros over Modano seems to break up that line of thought.

Just curious on the 3 guys I mentioned at 5-7.
My thoughts too. If Lindros is behind Selanne due to short career but Forsberg is ahead and Modano is at last is seems kind of inconsistent.

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Old
01-09-2013, 06:00 AM
  #34
BenchBrawl
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To make this short , I rank Forsberg over Selanne because of the playoffs.Selanne was also one-dimensional while Forsberg was a complete player.The differance between Forsberg's reputation as a big playoff player and Selanne's reputation as a guy losing his touch in the playoffs is too big not to choose Forsberg in this case.Eric Lindros don't have the same kind of playoff resume which is why he doesn't deserve to pass Selanne.

I also wasn't only judging by careers , but by overall player and tried to balance both of these factors into my ranking , which I admittedly did very quickly and without much thoughts.

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