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Just trying to liberate both sides here by adding what it sounds like each team wants.
This is much more fair. Maybe still not perfect as Stajan has struggled but still it is better, both sides get an upgrade in there spots and Edmonton isn't left with a gaping hole on there 2nd line.
I can see Oilers fans not wanting to give Smid since they love the guy so much but J-Bo is the better player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HellsBells
Welcome to HFBoards... where guys like Ladislav Smid can be better Jay Bouwmeester.
Considering the team has finished 30th,30th and 29th the last 3 years I suspect the momentum shift lasted about 30 seconds.
Considering JBo has never set foot in the playoffs, and oddsmakers seem to think that trend will continue, I'd like to know what intangibles you feel he brings to the game. Must be his passionate play and the sacrifices he makes. Like the way he sacrifices puck possession in the corners in order to not be hit.
But please, stay on your high horse and believe your team has a hope of making the playoffs. That way you guys can keep Iggy all year and receive zero assets for him when he bolts in free agency.
Welcome to HFBoards... where guys like Ladislav Smid can be better Jay Bouwmeester.
Smid at his salary is better than JBo at his salary, it's as simple as that and Smid fills a need with his toughness while JBo is a buttercup.
Also, the Oilers aren't parting with their #2C as flawed as he is for Bouwmeester even though he would be a nice addition but not at that price.
This is much more fair. Maybe still not perfect as Stajan has struggled but still it is better, both sides get an upgrade in there spots and Edmonton isn't left with a gaping hole on there 2nd line.
I can see Oilers fans not wanting to give Smid since they love the guy so much but J-Bo is the better player.
No kidding.
This is 100000 times worse. Horcoff>>Stajan. Smid>=Bouwmeester, at least to Oiler fans and there is multiple reasons as to why.
I hate this site. I dont know why I come here people on here are so stubborn and blind. Everyone here sees their players better than eveyone else. I admit that Smid is a good defensive def man and is is better than all our def with the exception of GIO & Boumeester and possibly wideman (havent seen him alot so not to sure yet). But to say flat out that Smid is better than Bouwmeester is like saying backlund is better than Nuge. Its just ludicrous. I wish people would just sit back and look at value of other players without be unbiased and stop valuing their own players to ridiculous proportoins. I agree we would not gte duchene for bouwmeester thats why i created the thread for Gagner NOT duchene. But everyone who sees bouwmeester as a horrible player is either blind or has been listening to to many HF threads of people who hate without actually watching.
Considering the team has finished 30th,30th and 29th the last 3 years I suspect the momentum shift lasted about 30 seconds.
You know the team was winning the games at evens when Smid was out there, right? I'll break it down for you and others:
Smid is still fairly young. It's pretty obvious that he broke out last season (and partially in the latter half of the year before). At the end of the day Smid was doing very well, winning the game inside the game. Despite facing the toughest competition on the team and a tough ZS Ladi Smid was a plus player. +/- has it's faults but typically it's due to the unfairness in accounting for role, Smid's +/- is outstanding still despite the fact he had a very tough role. Smid was an ace on the PK. He's an elite defensive dman at this point and he brings the intangiables Bouwmeester doesn't. Smid's breakout season also correlated with a 30 goal improvment in goals against and the teams plus minus improved from -76 in 10-11 to -27 in 11-12 (not that he gets credit for it all). There is certainly a littany of evidence that Smid had a monster season last year as a defensive dman.
BTW in terms of offense Smid and Bouwmeester had the same number of goals and Bouwmeester only had 5 more points at even strength than him. Bouwmeester added another 10 on the PP, and although it's a bonus i don't think teams are picking him up for the PP, he's a mediocre PP player and the Oil have Petry, Whitney, and Schultz, Potter to play those minutes. IMO the small offensive advantage isn't worth as much as the defensive/intangiable advantage Smid has.
That btw is called making an argument supported by facts (not really directed at the poster i'm quoting in particular). Believe it or not bringing up straw men like Johnson, using emoticons like , ect... it's not really a valid argument.
I hate this site. I dont know why I come here people on here are so stubborn and blind. Everyone here sees their players better than eveyone else. I admit that Smid is a good defensive def man and is is better than all our def with the exception of GIO & Boumeester and possibly wideman (havent seen him alot so not to sure yet). But to say flat out that Smid is better than Bouwmeester is like saying backlund is better than Nuge. Its just ludicrous. I wish people would just sit back and look at value of other players without be unbiased and stop valuing their own players to ridiculous proportoins. I agree we would not gte duchene for bouwmeester thats why i created the thread for Gagner NOT duchene. But everyone who sees bouwmeester as a horrible player is either blind or has been listening to to many HF threads of people who hate without actually watching.
Instead of crying about how much you dislike other peoples opinion why don't you put that energy into making a factual argument to disprove said opinions.
I hate this site. I dont know why I come here people on here are so stubborn and blind. Everyone here sees their players better than eveyone else. I admit that Smid is a good defensive def man and is is better than all our def with the exception of GIO & Boumeester and possibly wideman (havent seen him alot so not to sure yet). But to say flat out that Smid is better than Bouwmeester is like saying backlund is better than Nuge. Its just ludicrous. I wish people would just sit back and look at value of other players without be unbiased and stop valuing their own players to ridiculous proportoins. I agree we would not gte duchene for bouwmeester thats why i created the thread for Gagner NOT duchene. But everyone who sees bouwmeester as a horrible player is either blind or has been listening to to many HF threads of people who hate without actually watching.
Okay, then prove to me that Bouwmeester is better than Smid. Cause I simply do not see it other than more people know his name, and he makes more money. I see lots of posts here pointing out stats that make Smid better than JBo, but none the other way around.
BTW, your analogy is deeply flawed in that Backlund has not proven anything in the NHL yet, while Nuge has. Both Smid & JBo played similar roles in the NHL last year, other than the fact that JBo gets much more PP time. They are fairly easily comparable, and in my view Smid comes out on top.
I hate this site. I dont know why I come here people on here are so stubborn and blind. Everyone here sees their players better than eveyone else. I admit that Smid is a good defensive def man and is is better than all our def with the exception of GIO & Boumeester and possibly wideman (havent seen him alot so not to sure yet). But to say flat out that Smid is better than Bouwmeester is like saying backlund is better than Nuge. Its just ludicrous. I wish people would just sit back and look at value of other players without be unbiased and stop valuing their own players to ridiculous proportoins. I agree we would not gte duchene for bouwmeester thats why i created the thread for Gagner NOT duchene. But everyone who sees bouwmeester as a horrible player is either blind or has been listening to to many HF threads of people who hate without actually watching.
Bouwmeester is a better player than Smid although not by as much as you would think (especially the way Smid played last year) but when taking into account salary and need, i would take Smid over Bouwmeester for sure. The Oilers don't need another ultra soft defenseman who can log big minutes, they already traded away a Bouwmeester-lite in Gilbert because of that. Smid is tough as nails and is emerging as a leader so he's pretty much becoming a staple on the blueline for the Oilers. No way would i trade that for Bouwmeester especially at his salary.
Considering JBo has never set foot in the playoffs, and oddsmakers seem to think that trend will continue, I'd like to know what intangibles you feel he brings to the game. Must be his passionate play and the sacrifices he makes. Like the way he sacrifices puck possession in the corners in order to not be hit.
But please, stay on your high horse and believe your team has a hope of making the playoffs. That way you guys can keep Iggy all year and receive zero assets for him when he bolts in free agency.
LMAO, I think your reply could be defined as a momentum shift in that discussion...
hahaha once again someone who looks at paper stats. Who was Smid's partner? Was Smid matched up consitantly agains the Malkin's / Stamko's of the league?
Petry and yes.
Bowmeester is a good minute eater but that's about. He's an excellent skater, plays positionally sound and will eat up a ton of minutes but he doesn't bring a whole lot else to the table. He doesn't hit, doesn't shoot, isn't effective on the PP, doesn't really use his size, doesn't block a ton of shots etc etc. Before Ryan Whitney hurt his ankle he was a much, much better player and after Smids breakout last season I'd probably take him to although its close. At the end of the day Bows contract simply sucks.
Wow, where do I start! This is something I may consider doing for a young center, top line potential, say Duchene. Gagner will be a good second line center but he doesn't have top line potential. Bouwmeester could return a less developed prospect, with the same potential, easily. No chance!
The Flames would make out like bandits to get a decent 2nd line C for JayBo. I don't know what world you live in that makes you think JayBo is worth a Duchene type player. I would trade MD for 3 JayBo's with a 800K cap hit.
Dont care what people think of Gagner, we can't move him as we do not have a legit 2C to replace him. I would give a decent prospect and a 2nd for JBo but that is it.
bouwmeester is a top pairing d-man on any team in the nhl. he would easily become the top guy in edmonton (smid is not nearly as good, sorry oiler fans).
gagner is a number 2 centre in the nhl who has been extremely inconsistent throughout his career.
Okay, then prove to me that Bouwmeester is better than Smid. Cause I simply do not see it other than more people know his name, and he makes more money. I see lots of posts here pointing out stats that make Smid better than JBo, but none the other way around.
BTW, your analogy is deeply flawed in that Backlund has not proven anything in the NHL yet, while Nuge has. Both Smid & JBo played similar roles in the NHL last year, other than the fact that JBo gets much more PP time. They are fairly easily comparable, and in my view Smid comes out on top.
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?
3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0
I'm not a huge fan of JBo but people forgetting he was a mobile offensive dman previous to playing in Calgary and almost all teams trying to get him ufa.
Overpaid? Yes
5/6 dman? Not likely
Worth more than Smid to non oilers? Very likely.
For the record, I think Smid is a good 2nd pairing defensive guy.
In my opinion Bouwmeester for Gagner is very good value for the oilers, but that would destroy the team. Gagner is more important for the oilers at the moment than Bouwmeester would be.
In my opinion Bouwmeester for Gagner is very good value for the oilers, but that would destroy the team. Gagner is more important for the oilers at the moment than Bouwmeester would be.
You could get Arnott for your 2nd line center? It's much harder to find a Top pairing capable d vs 2c.
, ect... it's not really a valid argument.
