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Rick Tocchet or Owen Nolan?

View Poll Results: well
Tocchet 34 70.83%
Nolan 14 29.17%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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01-06-2013, 05:18 PM
  #26
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Nolan got a lot of PK time, but that may have been the result of him being one of the Sharks' few offensive threats for a couple of seasons and the fact that he could hit like a freight train. I don't remember him being that good defensively.


And I also don't think Nolan's peak ever matched Tkachuk's.
wow, a sharks fan with a tkachuk username. i'll take that testimonial as definitive.

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01-06-2013, 05:46 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1) Recognizing that Tocchet's best seasons were in a significantly higher scoring era than Nolan's is "creative 'measuring'?" Are you serious?
Um... Tocchet's best two seasons on a PPG basis were the two years right before Nolan's rookie year, and Nolan's 2nd and 3rd highest point totals came smack dab in the middle of Tocchet's 5 year "scoring prime". Hardly comparing vastly different eras here. And there isn't too much helping Nolan between then and the San Jose powerplay sparking his goal scoring back up again in '99/00.

And then there's the playoffs - both in terms of individual performance and offensive scoring stats/aggregate totals. If the playoffs hold any weight, the balance must be heavily in Tocchet's favour.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
2) It's quite possible I did underrate the effect of Sakic and Forsberg on Nolan. His second best season was 1994-95 playing with them, though that's nothing like Lemieux. Nolan wasnt really in his prime when he played with Sundin, I don't think.
Maybe not "in his prime", but playing seasons that gave him point totals that make this comparison look closer than it really is, imo. Follow the powerplay goals.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3) What makes Nolan "one-dimensional" compared to Tocchet? Tocchet was a much better fighter, that's for sure.
I guess it's a large mix of skill sets and intangibles. I'd consider both guys as fighting top liners, but Tocchet just seemed better at a lot of things (passing, for example, playing defense, for another). I also understand that Nolan held down a captaincy for much longer than Tocchet, but I think just about anyone close to the game will remember them in reverse order when it came to guys you'd follow into battle. Also, I mean by comparison to Tocchet, not compared to all the players who have ever been referred to as "one dimensional".

I also think Nolan was more dependent on the quality of his linemates for success than Tocchet was - regardless of how well either actually did in their opportunities to play with top players on their teams.

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01-06-2013, 05:53 PM
  #28
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Rick Tocchet

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01-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #29
MadLuke
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
And I also don't think Nolan's peak ever matched Tkachuk's.
Prime maybe not, but peak Noal (2000 sharks) was crazy good, if I remember correctly, the way they beat the first position Blues.

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01-06-2013, 07:02 PM
  #30
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Prime maybe not, but peak Noal (2000 sharks) was crazy good, if I remember correctly, the way they beat the first position Blues.
I don't know. Nolan started that series off pretty hot (2 goals, 5 points, +3 in the first 3 games), but wasn't as good at the end (2 goals, 3 points, -3 in the last 4 games). Now, technically you're right, as his goal was the game winner in game 7 vs. the Blues. But it was in the first period and it's the only shot on goal he was credited with all game, so...

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01-06-2013, 07:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't know. Nolan started that series off pretty hot (2 goals, 5 points, +3 in the first 3 games), but wasn't as good at the end (2 goals, 3 points, -3 in the last 4 games). Now, technically you're right, as his goal was the game winner in game 7 vs. the Blues. But it was in the first period and it's the only shot on goal he was credited with all game, so...
That goal was more because of Roman Turek badly misjudging the shot than because of any scoring ability from Nolan


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01-06-2013, 07:42 PM
  #32
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I liked Nolan alot, I think he's really underrated....but it has to be Tocchet for me. He was one nasty SOB to go with his skill set.

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01-06-2013, 08:07 PM
  #33
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Looked up a couple of stats about Tocchet:

- In his big 92-93 season, he had 23 points in the 23 games where Lemieux was out of the lineup. The following year he had 30 points in 36 games without Lemieux.

- The gamelogs on hockeyreference only go back to 87-88, so I'm not sure about his first three seasons, but in the four seasons from 87-88 to 90-91, Philadelphia's record in games where Tocchet was out of the lineup was 10-28-6 (.295); with Tocchet they were 127-117-32 (.522).


One random memory: during the 92-93 season I used to often listen to Dick Irvin doing the play-by-play on the radio for Montreal games, and a couple of times when they played Pittsburgh he stated that Tocchet's play in one of the games in the Stanley Cup Final against Chicago in '92 was "the most perfect game he'd ever seen a right wing play". Probably hyperbole, but still high praise from somebody who saw a lot of Howe and Richard in their prime.

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01-07-2013, 12:38 PM
  #34
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First..thank God for these kinds of threads, not Bourque vs Lidstrom or Hasek vs. Roy over and over again.

Owen Nolan is/was one of my favourite players, on the other hand I feel no bias against Tocchet I liked him too.

Numbers (posted by TDMM) shows very slight but very clear advantage for Nolan, even without so called Lemieux effect, which favours numbers even more for Nolan.
Throw in TOP 10 finishes in goals (2nd, 3rd and 10th vs -/-) and points (6th vs. -/-) and again...
It's safe to say Nolan was better offensive player. And better leader.
Can Tocchet's mean streak clear the difference? In my honest opinion, all of you who claim yes are overrating mass over talent.

Is possible that Nolan would win retrospective Richard Trophy if no lockout?

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01-07-2013, 01:40 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Best seasons by adjusted points:

Nolan: 91, 85, 75, 67, 65, 64, 62, 61, 55, 53
Tocchet: 88*, 80, 67, 64, 63, 60, 57, 53, 52, 52

*Played on the same line as peak Mario Lemieux

Nolan was definitely the better offensive player.

Did Tocchet really bring that much more to the table



Tkachuk > Nolan > Tocchet IMO. Tocchet was a great complementary piece, but teams were built around Tkachuk.

I took Nolan, but it is extremely close overall. Nolan was a demonstrably better producer, but as ornery as he was, I would take Tocchet as a hitter, fighter and puckwinner. They are probably a wash defensively.

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01-07-2013, 02:12 PM
  #36
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I took Nolan, but it is extremely close overall. Nolan was a demonstrably better producer, but as ornery as he was, I would take Tocchet as a hitter, fighter and puckwinner. They are probably a wash defensively.
Yeah, it's definitely close. My argument here is with the "Tocchet and it isn't close" crowd. I think Tocchet has major advantages in playing in a higher scoring era, for higher profile teams, with better teammates that helped him do more in the playoffs.

And I do think there's a nostalgia effect involved when comparing late 80s/early 90s guys with dead puck era guys.

Even though vadim is arguing for Tocchet, I pretty much agree with the rest of what he's saying - Nolan is better at being the star of a team (but the team probably won't go all that far with him as its star), and Tocchet is better at being a complimentary piece. It probably depends on what you are looking for.


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01-07-2013, 02:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I took Nolan, but it is extremely close overall. Nolan was a demonstrably better producer, but as ornery as he was, I would take Tocchet as a hitter, fighter and puckwinner. They are probably a wash defensively.
I personally don't think so at all. More than just an edge in favour of Tocchet, imo. And Nolan was only a "demonstrably better producer" when the setting was just right. What's the difference between 14-24 goal Nolan between '97 and '02, and 44 goal Nolan in '99/00? The quality of his centreman and having two linemates dish him the puck preferentially all year. Tocchet, on the other hand, was Tocchet - pretty consistent from Philly to Philly, with lord knows how many different sets of linemates/centres over his 7 stop career.

Seriously though, black out '99/00 and Nolan is little more than a big body (crazy to think 6'1 215 was "big and solid" at some point back in the day) with good hands who stood in front of the net/at the hashmarks on Sakic/Forsberg led powerplays and pulled the trigger. I personally don't see enough in any of that to put him above someone like Tocchet, who might not meet the arbitrary top-10 thresholds for offensive production in his era, but was pretty consistently just as good as we remember him (c.f. Nolan who was never as good as we remember him from '99/00 - even with those point totals at age 19/20).

Plus, Tocchet has at least 5 runs in the playoffs that would compare just fine with whichever of Nolan's appearances would be deemed "best". Yeah, teams play a factor in the opportunities, but look at how each guy performed individually in those post season runs and tell me honestly that you'd prefer to walk into the playoffs with Nolan instead of Tocchet. I just don't see it.

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01-07-2013, 02:22 PM
  #38
vadim sharifijanov
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maybe i'm out to lunch, but i remember tocchet being good defensively. in fact, the exact memory is that he was put on mario and stevens' line after the '92 trade because that line needed someone who could skate with the big boys while also making up for them being complete defensive liabilities (man, stevens in particular was just awful defensively).

keenan loved the guy, and tocchet came into the league on those excellent defensive 80s flyers teams. i'm pretty sure tocchet's role on the '87 CC team was on the shutdown line with propp and brent sutter. like i said above, i'm not saying tocchet was a selke guy, but i think he was a good defensive winger.

my memory is that nolan had a reputation for being below average defensively. upthread, tkachuk4MVP (a sharks fan) says that he doesn't remember nolan being "that good defensively." but on the other hand, nolan was 9th in SH goals in the decade between 2000 and 2010 (proving at least that he was trusted with a lot of PK icetime), so maybe i'm remembering wrong.

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01-07-2013, 02:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post

my memory is that nolan had a reputation for being below average defensively. upthread, tkachuk4MVP (a sharks fan) says that he doesn't remember nolan being "that good defensively." but on the other hand, nolan was 9th in SH goals in the decade between 2000 and 2010 (proving at least that he was trusted with a lot of PK icetime), so maybe i'm remembering wrong.
Pavel Bure got a ton of SHGs too. Some guys were just good penalty killers, without translating that into good even strength defense.

Perhaps I was underrating Tocchet's defense. I'm not sure his superior hitting ability overcomes the offensive gap, but superior defense probably would.

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01-08-2013, 04:32 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Prime maybe not, but peak Noal (2000 sharks) was crazy good, if I remember correctly, the way they beat the first position Blues.

Nolan had some great prime years with the Sharks, and you're right that his peak was probably that '99-00 season, but he never hit the highs that Tkachuk did with regards to ability or output. Had KT been healthy he would've cruised past 600 goals, that's elite company.



Tocchet is a more apt comparison. I'd agree with some of the others in here who say that Tocchet was a better playmaker and better defensively, but Nolan was the better goal scorer. I also think they were VERY close hitting and fighting-wise, almost too close to choose one or the other (Rick's been getting a lot of love here, but Nolan was nasty to play against in his heyday). Both were also tough as nails and as willing to stick up for their teammates as anybody. Nolan had a a higher peak than Tocchet IMO, but Rick was a little more consistent.

This is a really close call, not even sure who I'd pick at this point.

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01-08-2013, 04:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Nolan had some great prime years with the Sharks, and you're right that his peak was probably that '99-00 season, but he never hit the highs that Tkachuk did with regards to ability or output. Had KT been healthy he would've cruised past 600 goals, that's elite company.



Tocchet is a more apt comparison. I'd agree with some of the others in here who say that Tocchet was a better playmaker and better defensively, but Nolan was the better goal scorer. I also think they were VERY close hitting and fighting-wise, almost too close to choose one or the other (Rick's been getting a lot of love here, but Nolan was nasty to play against in his heyday). Both were also tough as nails and as willing to stick up for their teammates as anybody. Nolan had a a higher peak than Tocchet IMO, but Rick was a little more consistent.

This is a really close call, not even sure who I'd pick at this point.
Tocchet was a legitimate heavyweight fighter, though. Was Nolan?

www.dropyourgloves.com has Tocchet listed as a "light heavyweight" with 228 fights and an incredible recorded record of 106-18-59 (.740).

Nolan is listed in the same class but with just 100 fights and a record of 38-10-17 (.715).

If you look at the list of players they both fought, there is a stark difference.

Tocchet was the better fighter. He fought twice as often, against better competition, and had a higher win% against them (though Nolan's was good too)

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01-08-2013, 09:39 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Nolan put up points better than Tocchet, by what I think is a small but clear margin. Was Tocchet's ability to intimidate and win puck battles better enough than Nolan to make up the gap?

It wasn't just Mario Lemieux, Tocchet was the 4th or 5th best forward on the Penguins when he won the Cup - behind Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, and possibly a young Jagr.

Tocchet was the best player on the 1989-90 Flyers (largely because Mark Howe missed half the season), but that team didn't make the playoffs: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1317089
Well, I don't think that's much of a knock either to be placing him 4th on the 1992 Pens. Let's take a gander at those players. I'm not sure I would consider Tocchet to be a worse point getter either. Neither in my opinion has a clear advantage either way. I guess if I were picking a team my thoughts would be to take Tocchet first. It isn't a blowout of course and Nolan isn't a poor choice either, which makes it a good thread, but if I were to choose one of them........

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01-09-2013, 10:38 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Tocchet was a legitimate heavyweight fighter, though. Was Nolan?

www.dropyourgloves.com has Tocchet listed as a "light heavyweight" with 228 fights and an incredible recorded record of 106-18-59 (.740).

Nolan is listed in the same class but with just 100 fights and a record of 38-10-17 (.715).

If you look at the list of players they both fought, there is a stark difference.

Tocchet was the better fighter. He fought twice as often, against better competition, and had a higher win% against them (though Nolan's was good too)


Wow, well you've certainly put my argument to shame with those numbers.

I'd always considered Tocchet a light heavyweight, but that is quite the pedigree.


I'm strictly going off of watching them play, and Nolan handled himself well against guys guys like Odjick and Potomski even if he didn't fight as often. I also made a point of including hitting in my post because I think Nolan was every bit the hitter that Tocchet was. My overall point was that the "intangible" levels for these two weren't that far apart.

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