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Is it time for Detroit to begin a full rebuild?

View Poll Results: Time for Detroit rebuild?
Yes, if they aren't in the playoffs by the deadline, start dealing 30 18.07%
Not yet, lets try one more year 15 9.04%
No, just re-tool, wheel and deal 91 54.82%
No, things are fine 30 18.07%
Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-09-2013, 12:37 AM
  #26
The Note
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Retool. They've got some good prospects and a pretty good team as is, full rebuild would be ill-advised

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01-09-2013, 12:37 AM
  #27
Chris Hansen
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The Wings are in the same boat as, I'd say, Chicago. Although after losing Lidstrom and not replacing him, I'd put Chicago a clear step ahead.

Still, I see the resemblance. Both teams are playoff quality, both have several elite players. Additionally they each have some glaring holes in the roster... holes that are too obvious and too important for them to challenge seriously for a Cup.
Wings are not winning it all, nor are they missing the playoffs barring a crazy rash of injuries.

I suppose you could say they're in "retooling" mode, although I'm not sure how easy that's going to be or if it will work at all. They're a number of pieces away from being a serious championship contender.

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01-09-2013, 01:02 AM
  #28
Rorschach
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The problem I'm observing with their retooling is they haven't gotten a great player in the draft in many years, some decent to good ones I'm sure but no Datsyuk or Zetterberg let alone a Lidstrom, and they were completely shut out in the UFA market. That's because Holland is still trying to sell the Red Wing mystique and expecting top UFAs to sign for less when they now are signin for way more. They don't have an excess of anything to trade and their first rounders are middling at best. They need multiple top players right now especially on defense.

Maybe IF they could retool they may have a couple more good years but I have seen Detroit try to do so and not.

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01-09-2013, 01:29 AM
  #29
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DRW had one of the best, or possibly the best record in the NHL until fairly late in the season, and won 23 consecutive games at home, and then finished badly, in large part b/c of injuries to datsyuk and lidstrom.

first 60 games: 41-17-2
last 22 games: 7-11-4

those 7 wins were against CBJ x2, minnesota, LAK, carolina, florida (SO), STL (SO)


record without datsyuk: 3-8-1
record without lidstrom: 3-6-2

but both datsyuk and lidstrom missed several of those games.


datsyuk was one of the top scorers in the NHL, but then injured his knee in a collision with toews in mid january. he scored only 16p in his last 27 games (including playoffs) and his skating did not return to normal until later in the summer.


although lidstrom was obviously past his prime, he was still very important, and DRW had a bad record without lidstrom since '91 and especially since lidstrom became elite, which is a very bad sign for this coming season. brad stuart was also lost.

my biggest worries for next season are health and special teams. i would not be shocked if they missed the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Rolen View Post
And to stay on topic I think the wings should retool. That doesn't mean to trade away their stars such as Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but acquiring younger players, preferably age 22-26, is ideal. Brunner was a great start to that. Detroit also has some good prospects coming up such as Nyquist, Smith and Tatar, although it's seems like Holland has rid most of them at their chance to make the roster by signing guys such as Samuelsson and Tootoo.
agree

holland seems generally very conservative, and likes to sign players he knows well and who have played for him before.

samuelsson, osgood, hasek, conklin, joey macdonald, bertuzzi, quincey, mccarty, jason williams and possibly others, have been brought back after service with another team.

during the free agency period, several of us joked that holland would sign samuelsson again, and then he actually did.


blueline badly needs to be rebuilt. holland knew years ago that lidstrom and rafalski were close to retirement, and that brad stuart preferred to play in california to be closer to his family, but none of them have really been replaced, even though he had a lot of cap space available.

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If I was Detroit I wouldn't be too worried. So long as they stop trading draft picks for players such as Quincey I think they are in a safe position. Competitive now, and a promising future (yet to be seen).
that trade made little sense to me.

babcock and many of us fans thought a W was needed (and a F was especially important b/c datsyuk's injury), but holland for some reason traded a 1st round pick for a depth d-man when he could have just used brendan smith or kindl. and i was hoping for matt finn or andrey vasilevski.

after a few games, i said holland traded for quincey to prove that waiving him in 2007 was not a bad move.

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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Again, not comparing them now to the Flames now. I'm saying if the time to rebuild is now and you wait a few years instead when your top players are like 35+, then your situation at that time will be like the Flames now.

And that's IF you believe it's time for them to rebuild possibly, which I do but others don't. This the poll...
DRW's future a few years from now could very well be crappy. core players most likely will be at the end of their primes. it will be hard to sign good UFAs if the team is not a contender, and holland generally does not offer big contracts.

holland also seems to prefer to offer less to big UFA's than other teams.


Last edited by nik jr: 01-09-2013 at 01:39 AM.
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Old
01-09-2013, 01:35 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
The problem I'm observing with their retooling is they haven't gotten a great player in the draft in many years, some decent to good ones I'm sure but no Datsyuk or Zetterberg let alone a Lidstrom, and they were completely shut out in the UFA market. That's because Holland is still trying to sell the Red Wing mystique and expecting top UFAs to sign for less when they now are signin for way more. They don't have an excess of anything to trade and their first rounders are middling at best. They need multiple top players right now especially on defense.

Maybe IF they could retool they may have a couple more good years but I have seen Detroit try to do so and not.
Do you mean they haven't drafted high in many years? Because that is true. They have had the lowest average picks of any team for the past 20+ years.

Yet still they have guys like Smith, Nyquist (if these aren't high-end prospects, what are?), Tatar, Jurco, Almqvist, Jarnkrok, Ouellet, Sproul, Mrazek...

If you don't follow prospects, then I can see where your misgivings come from, but to say they have a shallow pool of prospects is simply incorrect.


I also find it funny how people can so easily claim how poor their defense is when they haven't even played a single game together.

Believe it or not, the Wings have pretty darn good depth defensively... what they are lacking is the true #1 dman, however with the depth on D - in terms of actual defenders, forwards and a system that focuses on defence - I don't see how the loss of one player (a 42 year old, who people like to assume retired while still in his prime, which he didn't) will be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking from jealous fanbases. The same wishful thinking I've been hearing for the past 15 years. I guess if you keep it up forever its bound to one day come true....

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01-09-2013, 02:03 AM
  #31
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Retool.

They have a fantastic core still, especially with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Rebuilds are better suited for teams that have an aging core and consistently miss/struggle to make the playoffs. Retooling is great for a team with a solid core that just needs to make a few adjustments to return to the next level.

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01-09-2013, 02:35 AM
  #32
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Full rebuild is not DRW style and overall is admitting that you're a fail of a manager. Not to mention it's very risky (ask Toronto). Can't see it.

Detroit's problem is that they broke the chain of elite players changing each other: now they have a situation when the prospects are still prospects, while Lidstrom retired and Euro twins are still good, but accumulate injuries. Guys like Nyquist look very promising, but a) they will need a couple of years to bloom and b) I'm not convinced they are players that will be ready to replace superstars. Depth is there, but a team without elite front line players won't win the Cup.

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01-09-2013, 03:24 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
Still think they should've gone after Semin a lot harder than they did. Datsyuk - Semin would've been awesome.
There were some reports that Datsyuk himself didn't want Semin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
The Wings are in the same boat as, I'd say, Chicago. Although after losing Lidstrom and not replacing him, I'd put Chicago a clear step ahead.

Still, I see the resemblance. Both teams are playoff quality, both have several elite players. Additionally they each have some glaring holes in the roster... holes that are too obvious and too important for them to challenge seriously for a Cup.
Wings are not winning it all, nor are they missing the playoffs barring a crazy rash of injuries.

I suppose you could say they're in "retooling" mode, although I'm not sure how easy that's going to be or if it will work at all. They're a number of pieces away from being a serious championship contender.
I'd agree with this.

As long as we have Dats, Z and Babs, I'm not that worried. But but..

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01-09-2013, 03:56 AM
  #34
Rorschach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
Do you mean they haven't drafted high in many years? Because that is true. They have had the lowest average picks of any team for the past 20+ years.

Yet still they have guys like Smith, Nyquist (if these aren't high-end prospects, what are?), Tatar, Jurco, Almqvist, Jarnkrok, Ouellet, Sproul, Mrazek...

If you don't follow prospects, then I can see where your misgivings come from, but to say they have a shallow pool of prospects is simply incorrect.


I also find it funny how people can so easily claim how poor their defense is when they haven't even played a single game together.

Believe it or not, the Wings have pretty darn good depth defensively... what they are lacking is the true #1 dman, however with the depth on D - in terms of actual defenders, forwards and a system that focuses on defence - I don't see how the loss of one player (a 42 year old, who people like to assume retired while still in his prime, which he didn't) will be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking from jealous fanbases. The same wishful thinking I've been hearing for the past 15 years. I guess if you keep it up forever its bound to one day come true....
Nah, the Kings fans aren't afraid of Detroit at all. And we're the last team to be jealous.
And you're sounding a bit like an Oiler fan talking about how your pile of second tier prospects will take you to the promised land...except the Oiler fans' prospects include three consensus #1s. Hey, the Kings have a ton of defensemen prospects too. They'll also maybe be full time NHLers just like yours might...when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are almost retired.

And I didn't say the loss of one guy on defense was everything. I'm saying your defense wasn't that good with that guy AND you lost that guy to boot.

Detroit has brought up some decent to good young role players and a few second liners the last three years but there hasn't been a move that whole time to acquire the players who will take over the team. Right now, Detroit is a non-factor in the West...a bubble team. That's not what I call Red Wings hockey.

Maybe they need a new GM who is willing to make big trades and throw money at UFAs. I don't know. What I see is them on the decline with no special player who is coming aboard to turn things around.

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01-09-2013, 07:23 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Right now, Detroit is a non-factor in the West...a bubble team. That's not what I call Red Wings hockey.

Maybe they need a new GM who is willing to make big trades and throw money at UFAs. I don't know. What I see is them on the decline with no special player who is coming aboard to turn things around.
I don't think any team is a non-factor when they've got Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Helm down the middle and a solid goalie like Howard in net. This is a little bit exaggerated.

The other thing is, Holland threw a ton of cash at Suter. He's willing to do that. He just wasn't willing to throw a ton at Parise, and that was the difference maker.

Even so, I think you underrate Nyquist and Smith. They're only second tier prospects if the first tier is made up of top 5 picks. Who doesn't want a top six winger and a top 4 offensive D?

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01-09-2013, 10:43 AM
  #36
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I'm not sold on guys like Nyquist and Brunner coming in and being able to save the sinking ship. At least not yet. Though if you look around the league, every team has gaping holes in their lineup so I'm not counting the Wings out. They have a lot of assets for trade, I imagine they would have to put them to use and they will have to be quite aggressive - not quite Holland's shtick. If they aren't succesful they are going to have to have a change in their building scheme, which relied heavily on having hall of fame players to coach around.

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01-09-2013, 10:46 AM
  #37
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IIRC, when the Flames lost Erixon, they were already worse than Detroit is right now and had one of the most barren prospect pools ever.

The Red Wings should be fine without selling off top-end assets.

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01-09-2013, 10:53 AM
  #38
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Option 3. Make tweaks as needed but no need for a full re-build.

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01-09-2013, 10:56 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Stars are aging but still have value, they have a young back end as well...they aren't able to improve enough to be a contender any more...

So, should they rebuild, retool or try to be the next Flames?
why would the Red Wings, the most succesful franchise of the last 2 decades, want to emulate the Flames who have either missed the playoffs or gone out in the first round every year but one since 1990? The Red Wings are the masters of draft and development. Look at the Maple Leafs. Now at the Red Wings. Now back at the Leafs. Which team was drafting higher and which team was drafting smarter? They will have a few lean years and possibly miss the playoffs a few times, but they won't be bad long.

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01-09-2013, 11:00 AM
  #40
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Full rebuild would be giving up on Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall too. No way we should do that.

But seriously gut most of the middle core. The Cleary's, Bertuzzi's, Quincey's, Kindl's etc. etc. need to GO. They're taking up spots for better players. I personally think they should have dealt Filppula and + for a #2 defenseman over the offseason because the guy isn't going to hit last year's numbers again. They sign Samuelsson (Just WHY?!), and have a logjam of ready prospects who won't be able to play. Not to mention how disappointing Abdelkader, Kindl, and Emmerton are. It's a mess in disguise.

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01-09-2013, 11:26 AM
  #41
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They'll be a contender for years. They have some good prospects in their system who will be emerging in the next 2-3 years.

And when I say contender, I mean they'll make the playoffs. This parity thing is really getting to me. Detroit gets punished for having a well run franchise while crappy teams get rewarded with top 10 picks year after year until their "can't miss" draft picks start adding up.

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01-09-2013, 01:04 PM
  #42
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Nah, the Kings fans aren't afraid of Detroit at all. And we're the last team to be jealous.
And you're sounding a bit like an Oiler fan talking about how your pile of second tier prospects will take you to the promised land...except the Oiler fans' prospects include three consensus #1s. Hey, the Kings have a ton of defensemen prospects too. They'll also maybe be full time NHLers just like yours might...when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are almost retired.

And I didn't say the loss of one guy on defense was everything. I'm saying your defense wasn't that good with that guy AND you lost that guy to boot.

Detroit has brought up some decent to good young role players and a few second liners the last three years but there hasn't been a move that whole time to acquire the players who will take over the team. Right now, Detroit is a non-factor in the West...a bubble team. That's not what I call Red Wings hockey.

Maybe they need a new GM who is willing to make big trades and throw money at UFAs. I don't know. What I see is them on the decline with no special player who is coming aboard to turn things around.
Lol ok and now we all see the point of this thread.

Not a single thing you've said above is true.

They had the 6th best GAA in the league last year (including major stretches without their three best defensive players). Saying they had bad defense is simply untrue. The fact that you have to make up things to attempt to discredit a team is kind of pathetic.


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-10-2013 at 02:40 AM. Reason: not needed
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01-09-2013, 01:27 PM
  #43
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Looking at Babcocks projected lineup it seems as though they may not be retooling. Nyquist on the 4th line/press box is a complete joke if it happens.

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01-09-2013, 01:32 PM
  #44
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Holland...

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01-09-2013, 02:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Nah, the Kings fans aren't afraid of Detroit at all. And we're the last team to be jealous.
And you're sounding a bit like an Oiler fan talking about how your pile of second tier prospects will take you to the promised land...except the Oiler fans' prospects include three consensus #1s. Hey, the Kings have a ton of defensemen prospects too. They'll also maybe be full time NHLers just like yours might...when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are almost retired.

And I didn't say the loss of one guy on defense was everything. I'm saying your defense wasn't that good with that guy AND you lost that guy to boot.

Detroit has brought up some decent to good young role players and a few second liners the last three years but there hasn't been a move that whole time to acquire the players who will take over the team. Right now, Detroit is a non-factor in the West...a bubble team. That's not what I call Red Wings hockey.

Maybe they need a new GM who is willing to make big trades and throw money at UFAs. I don't know. What I see is them on the decline with no special player who is coming aboard to turn things around.
Man that was a sorry first paragraph.

The Red Wings will re-tool and be just fine.


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01-09-2013, 05:23 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
The problem I'm observing with their retooling is they haven't gotten a great player in the draft in many years, some decent to good ones I'm sure but no Datsyuk or Zetterberg let alone a Lidstrom, and they were completely shut out in the UFA market. That's because Holland is still trying to sell the Red Wing mystique and expecting top UFAs to sign for less when they now are signin for way more. They don't have an excess of anything to trade and their first rounders are middling at best. They need multiple top players right now especially on defense.

Maybe IF they could retool they may have a couple more good years but I have seen Detroit try to do so and not.
Missing out on the UFA market in a single season isn't a big deal in my opinion. If you have the cap space something will come up eventually. On average there's usually about 1 star player a season who falls out of favour with his team and gets traded, and at least 2 big names in the UFA market every summer.

It's a bit of a gamble but sometimes if you have a hole it's better to wait than to rush out and grab whoever is available at the time and end up having to settle with someone like Dennis Wideman for 5 years. And it becomes less of a gamble if you have a strong organization that players actually want to play for.

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01-09-2013, 10:40 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
Still think they should've gone after Semin a lot harder than they did. Datsyuk - Semin would've been awesome.
yeah I was pretty upset about that

it didn't seem like they were interested in him at all for some reason

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01-09-2013, 11:05 PM
  #48
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They'll be fine. Their prospects should do some good hole-filling, and they have cap space to eat up one or two previously-overpaid UFAs when the amnesty buy-outs occur.

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01-10-2013, 01:11 AM
  #49
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Definitely retool. Although at the same time, there have been mistakes made.

Not keeping Hudler over a matter of a couple hundred thousand dollars is one of the most glaring ones, as well as keeping Stuart and Lebda around longer than they were useful.

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01-10-2013, 04:16 AM
  #50
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They are called the constant rebuild for a reason

They are already trading down with their first picks to get more picks and still pick players that turn out 1st round material. It may feel as a big %#ck you to other nhl clubs and fans feeling embarrassed and jealous but still why insult them by thinking they need a bigger rebuild? They definately have guys to take over we are just seeing a little transition period atm.

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