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THE OFFICIAL BUYOUT THREAD: Bourque or Kaberle?

View Poll Results: Who do you buy out?
Gomez 72 67.29%
Bourque 16 14.95%
Kaberle 64 59.81%
Markov 2 1.87%
other 0 0%
I only buy out 1 player 8 7.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-08-2013, 10:54 PM
  #276
not quite yoda
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Which 2 contracts do you buy out this summer to make room under the cap?

Which 2 contracts do you buy out this summer to make room under the cap?

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01-09-2013, 12:41 AM
  #277
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If we want to trade Gomez we could retain half his salary in the deal. I think he would be easy to trade next summer if we agree to pay half of his 2013-2014 salary. We might even get something like a 4th or 5th rounder.

I presume retaining some of his salary means we would retain some of his cap hit. Does anyone know how much? I'm guessing it would just be the actual value we pay him but I suppose it could be 50% of his cap hit.

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01-09-2013, 12:47 AM
  #278
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Okay checking in another thread, I see that if you retain x% of the salary you also retain x% of the cap hit. So retaining some of his salary defeats the purpose of trading him.

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01-09-2013, 12:53 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
If we want to trade Gomez we could retain half his salary in the deal. I think he would be easy to trade next summer if we agree to pay half of his 2013-2014 salary. We might even get something like a 4th or 5th rounder.

I presume retaining some of his salary means we would retain some of his cap hit. Does anyone know how much? I'm guessing it would just be the actual value we pay him but I suppose it could be 50% of his cap hit.
You have the equivalent fraction of the cap hit as you agree to pay in salary. So you can pay anywhere from 0-50% of the cap hit or in Gomez's case 0-3.68M on the cap.

That's not likely to matter anyway. Compliance buyout is probably Montreal's best option, they need the space for Subban and Desharnais' new contracts.


Unfortunately, the Habs will have to be more cap efficient then they used to be going forward since they are now paying market cost for good goaltending rather than having their starter on an RFA deal.


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01-09-2013, 01:25 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
You have the equivalent fraction of the cap hit as you agree to pay in salary. So you can pay anywhere from 0-50% of the cap hit or in Gomez's case 0-3.68M on the cap.

That's not likely to matter anyway. Compliance buyout is probably Montreal's best option, they need the space for Subban and Desharnais' new contracts.


Unfortunately, the Habs will have to be more cap efficient then they used to be going forward since they are now paying market cost for good goaltending rather than having their starter on an RFA deal.
aside from making a bold move in-season to bolster a cup contending team (and even then...), a well-run team is ALWAYS cap efficient.

It is precisely the lack of ability in managing the cap efficiently that has relegated us to sustained mediocrity the past 5-6 years despite being one of the top-spending teams year-in year-out.

Hopefully, the new management team appreciates this and will manouevre the new CBA and the inevitable roster-juggling that it will mandate over the next 1-2 years in a way that shows the kind of long-term strategic planning the previous leadership so clearly lacked.


In a very weird way, our best bet is in having Gomez, Bourque & Kaberle (and you could arguably add Gionta to that list) playing big roles this year and "succeeding" (at this stage, it's highly improbable that any of them play "up to" their respective cap % hits, but we only need them to play well enough to entice another organization to be willing to part with assets to acquire them).

Bottom line is that our organization is better off with a pure subtraction of Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, given their cap ramifications and the fact that far cheaper players are easily & readily available who can provide what they are likely to contribute.

Since buy-outs don't come into play until next summer, and we have a short-term 70M$ (pro-rated) cap to work with, might as well get them on the ice, and cross our fingers that they do enough to be tradeable...

imo, MB & MT will really show their astuteness if they were to aggressively use all 3 in the most flattering of roles possible (lots of PP time, heavy Offensive zone starts, skilled linemates).

if we could translate those 3 into a 2nd round pick & no bad contracts coming back... that would be a BIG win!

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01-09-2013, 01:52 AM
  #281
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I can see this topic is going to get intresting as the year goes on. One thing has to be considered, do we want to see Montreal to buyout contracts to remain competitive and try to make playoff runs or try to do a small rebuild. And by a rebuild, buyout all the former FA players and do some trades that Gainey and Gauthier brought in which we can all agree have seriously damaged the franchise.

I think we also need to look at our cap numbers going into this season and then the next. Looking at this current year, we are 10th in total cap size, this is without PK Subban signed, which would mean more then likely another 5million will be added to this number. Next year in 2013-2014 is going to look scary for Montreal, every team's payroll will drop because of contracts expiring and every one of them will go below the 60million cap figure with the exception of Montreal, which if we figure Subban's salary in with probably be 65million with 17 players signed. 6million over the next closest team.

What does this mean? Well we obviously have to buyout Scott Gomez to get back under the Cap ceiling, but that leaves us with only 2 million to fill out our roster, so we need to exercise another buyout to give us more space to sign more players. At this point, we may be forced to look at the situation as how good are we going to be by the end of the 2013 season and then decide if we need to do a makeover.

If we barely squeak into the playoffs then go out in the first round, then I would have to say Montreal needs to do a rebuild to fix some of their core issues. Bigger forwards, younger players. Montreal has a good nucleus to build from, it wouldn't have to be a total rebuild, but trading some players to free up cap space and get some draft picks would go a long way to righting the Habs ship.

I'm not saying that Montreal needs to do a rebuild or they should consider it now in this shortenned season, but the question has to be asked with our cap situation, trading several underperforming players would go a long way to fixing key issues with the club. And since we can't do buyouts until after this season, the Habs performance up the the trade deadline could be a good gauge whether the Habs need to do a rebuild.

Here are the potential players we could either buyout or trade. Gomez will be our obvious first choice.

Andrei Markov. He's had two seasons where in essence his whole season was wiped out. He's a great quarterback to a powerplay and when healthy a top 5 defenseman. PK Subban has had to step up to replace Markov's lost production, but we can agree Subban doesn't have Markov's puck distribution on the PP. So Markov does have value to the franchise. But he's had two injury plagued seasons now, his cap hit is 5.75million which is significant for a player that isn't playing. If he has a healthy season, then his value goes up and potentially his trade value as well. He may not be worth a first rounder with his age and injury history, but a second wouldn't be out of the question. If he does get reinjured this season, then its pretty manditory that Montreal buyout Markov and free up the 5.75million cap hit.

Tomas Kaberle. A decent puck moving defenseman with a fairly high cap hit at 4.25million. A gauthier trade that many fans regret, one of his last moves that is another drag on the club, but his cap hit isn't excessive like Markov's and could be moved via trade. Potentially a second rounder could return for Kaberle so buying out Kaberle shouldn't be too high on the list because of this. His contract is over in the 2014 season as well.

Brian Gionta. Another injury plagued player with softer production then we expected for his high salary. 5million cap hit is quite excessive and for many of us a bad contract to make. I think with the Gomez trade, these two contracts were the worst moves Gainey did and will effect the Habs organization for years to come, At 5million, his trade value is very low, it would take a significant incentive by Montreal to get any team to take on Gionta. His contract though is over in 2014, so one saving grace. Gionta should be very high on the buyout list. (It may be possible to trade him via taking on some of his cap hit with the new CBA rules)

Rene Bourque. A big forward that doesn't play like a powerforward. Could he return to his past production that is the question. His cap hit is 3.33million. Its the least excessive of the 4 players here and one of the more easily tradable. The question though will be is he the best value to buyout when the 2013-2014 cap will be still very high for Montreal? We may be forced to buyout another player to create more cap space. Bourque's potential buyout is low because of this. His contract will be over in 2016.

How should Montreal proceed after this season is over? Well if Montreal stands pat and buyouts Scott Gomez and either Kaberle or Bourque like many here suggest. Then Montreal will not have alot of wiggle room to make any impact in free agency. Montreal will be hard up on the cap. Other teams like Toronto will have 20million free next year and next years free agency should see many quality players available.

But if Montreal decides on a rebuild, then our team can look very different by the end of this season. We could trade underperforming players with big contracts to clear up cap space. When free agency comes along, Montreal can then decide to go after some of those players or stand pat and promote from the farm club and bring up players like Tinnordi, Beulieu to replace players like Markov and Kaberle and by then Alex Galchenyuk will be at the club level playing as well. Montreal will get bigger and much younger as well and we would free up a space to make some signings as well in free agency.

To go about this, I would suggest by the trade deadline, move Gionta and do a cap and trade deal with the other club, get a draft pick for him. Move Kaberle and hopefully just get a draft pick without taking on any of his cap hit. At the end of the season, buyout Gomez and Markov and Montreal then frees up potentially 22.2million in cap space or less if a cap and trade deal happens. With this cap freed, Montreal then can make a splash in free agency and go after some marquee FA players like Ryan Getzlaf and Correy Perry who are both 27yrs, Travis Zajac 27yrs, Valterri Filpulla 28yrs. Some of these forwards would go a long way to fixing some of our defeciences on size and playmaking skills.

So by no means am I suggesting we tank and rebuild, there are other possiblities out there that we can explore. But to put more emphasis on what I am trying to say. Montreal should be exploring ways to give themselves more cap room to operate and simply not standing pat on this roster if they just squeak into the playoffs this year. They could remake their roster and improve themselves at the same time. If Montreal just squeaks into the playoffs and we only do buyouts then we really are not improving the club and its hard to see in the short term, Montreal competing for Stanley Cups with the current roster.

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01-09-2013, 02:08 AM
  #282
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aside from making a bold move in-season to bolster a cup contending team (and even then...), a well-run team is ALWAYS cap efficient.

It is precisely the lack of ability in managing the cap efficiently that has relegated us to sustained mediocrity the past 5-6 years despite being one of the top-spending teams year-in year-out.

Hopefully, the new management team appreciates this and will manouevre the new CBA and the inevitable roster-juggling that it will mandate over the next 1-2 years in a way that shows the kind of long-term strategic planning the previous leadership so clearly lacked.


In a very weird way, our best bet is in having Gomez, Bourque & Kaberle (and you could arguably add Gionta to that list) playing big roles this year and "succeeding" (at this stage, it's highly improbable that any of them play "up to" their respective cap % hits, but we only need them to play well enough to entice another organization to be willing to part with assets to acquire them).

Bottom line is that our organization is better off with a pure subtraction of Gomez/Bourque/Kaberle, given their cap ramifications and the fact that far cheaper players are easily & readily available who can provide what they are likely to contribute.

Since buy-outs don't come into play until next summer, and we have a short-term 70M$ (pro-rated) cap to work with, might as well get them on the ice, and cross our fingers that they do enough to be tradeable...

imo, MB & MT will really show their astuteness if they were to aggressively use all 3 in the most flattering of roles possible (lots of PP time, heavy Offensive zone starts, skilled linemates).

if we could translate those 3 into a 2nd round pick & no bad contracts coming back... that would be a BIG win!
Cap efficent is a relative thing though, it not a linear in value. If you manage to maximize cap efficency you'll end up with a terrible team and a lot of dead cap space. And dead cap space that is not being used is worthless.

In the latter part of the first cap CBA, being cap efficent everywhere didn't help. The endlessly rising cap and liberal contract rules meant that in general, impact players were much more valuable than cap space because teams rarely had to give up on a player they really wanted for cap reasons, which resulted in a heavily inflated UFA market due to lack of supply to meat the ample demand. Especially since the rising cap meant that an overpayment in year 1 of a long term deal could easily be fair market value by year 3 or 4. Teams like Philadelphia built very good teams with a "screw the cap, get the impact player" approach. It only blew up in their face when they went after bridge too far in chasing a goaltender.


In Montreal's case, a combination of cheap goaltending and the absence of veteran elite home-grown talent with the presence of a lot of cheap homegrown depth players gave the team a lot of leeway in spending cap hit on veteran imports. The outside veterans weren't cap efficent, but there wasn't anything cap efficient to use that money on anyway. The only other use for it would be to either sign another UFA or to trade for an player with a big contract another team was trying to get rid of. Otherwise the space lies fallow and useless.

E.G. Hamrlik wasn't cap efficient at 5.5 million, but if you got rid of him for free then its unlikely you'd have anything drastically more efficient to spend that 5.5 million on anyway so it was better to have a solid 2nd defenseman than 5.5 million in new cap space as he filled a need.

It will be interesting to see how the new CBA works out. The new rules and declining revenue growth might make capspace a valuable commodity again. Or we could have a couple years of forced restraint by the scaled back cap ceilling and no rollback followed to a reversion to pre-lockout 2.0 status quo.

This isn't to say that cap inefficency is a virtue, far from it. But its not the highest virtue when looking at value. The cap is like the draft, a resource to be exploiting help create a better team not a virtue in of its self.

Now if the previous regime was a lot stronger on asset management in general, of which cap management is a component but not the entirety, they'd be much better off. In the most cases it was squandered player assets rather than squandered cap that hurt. The only time a team got assets in trade for cap space was the Chicago post Cup fire-sale. And only one team out of 30 benefited there.

As far as the new regime goes, I don't think the guy who signed Prust to a 2.5M contract is heavily concerned with cap efficiency.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 01-09-2013 at 02:16 AM.
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01-09-2013, 10:49 AM
  #283
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Which 2 contracts do you buy out this summer to make room under the cap?
Why does this need to be brought up every day? Good news is we have a full(ok half) season to see what those guys do and make up our mainds. Gomez looks to be a no brainer but after that there is no obvious choice.

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01-09-2013, 11:14 AM
  #284
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Why does this need to be brought up every day? Good news is we have a full(ok half) season to see what those guys do and make up our mainds. Gomez looks to be a no brainer but after that there is no obvious choice.
This

Why do we need to take a decision right now when we could wait a season and see those players perform.

Gomez looks like a no brainer now as you said but maybe he'll bounce back

Maybe we'll take another bad contract along with a good player so we could buyout the bad contract for a "poor" team.

Lets say Buffalo wants to buyout Leino but the GM doesnt want to look stupid because he gave that contract and the owner doesnt want to pay him to play elsewhere.

A rich team like Montreal, Toronto, NYR could take that contract along with a good player

Then the rich team uses his buyout on Leino.

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01-09-2013, 11:21 AM
  #285
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we may be surprised in the "buy out department", there's no rush to buy anyone out (even Gomez) unless we're a competitive team by 13/14. I mean, we buy out Gomez and then what, we use the $ to acquire a player that will get us 10th in the east instead of 13th ? really ?

After that, Markov, Gionta, Gomez, Kaberle are all off the books, that's over 20 Mil right there. And by then, some of the Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, etc may have developped their game enough to take one of those player's spot for cheap ($ wise).

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01-09-2013, 11:28 AM
  #286
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we may be surprised in the "buy out department", there's no rush to buy anyone out (even Gomez) unless we're a competitive team by 13/14. I mean, we buy out Gomez and then what, we use the $ to acquire a player that will get us 10th in the east instead of 13th ? really ?

After that, Markov, Gionta, Gomez, Kaberle are all off the books, that's over 20 Mil right there. And by then, some of the Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, etc may have developped their game enough to take one of those player's spot for cheap ($ wise).
Regardless of the status of the team for 13-14. I think Bergevin and co will still want to be agressive on the UFA market if they can improve the team. Plus, if Gomez isn't a top 9 guy after this year they'll probably just buy him out to save 1/3 of his 4.5 mil salary. No sense havinga guy making 4.5 mil in the press box or 4th line.

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01-09-2013, 11:30 AM
  #287
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we may be surprised in the "buy out department", there's no rush to buy anyone out (even Gomez) unless we're a competitive team by 13/14. I mean, we buy out Gomez and then what, we use the $ to acquire a player that will get us 10th in the east instead of 13th ? really ?

After that, Markov, Gionta, Gomez, Kaberle are all off the books, that's over 20 Mil right there. And by then, some of the Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, etc may have developped their game enough to take one of those player's spot for cheap ($ wise).
Cap space will have to be cleared for next season - whether the Habs are competitive or not.

Might not be buyouts - which would be a huge positive because that would mean 2 of Gomez, Bourque, or Kaberle played well enough to generate positive trade value.

There is an opportunity to evaluate the situation with this shortened season and that is great...we will find out next summer what direction management takes.

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01-09-2013, 11:31 AM
  #288
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Regardless of the status of the team for 13-14. I think Bergevin and co will still want to be agressive on the UFA market if they can improve the team. Plus, if Gomez isn't a top 9 guy after this year they'll probably just buy him out to save 1/3 of his 4.5 mil salary. No sense havinga guy making 4.5 mil in the press box or 4th line.
that 1/3 will likely be the cost for a replacement, or close to it. So you'd be saving a few hundreds K at best. And that's for one season only as he's UFA after that.

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01-09-2013, 11:34 AM
  #289
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Cap space will have to be cleared for next season - whether the Habs are competitive or not.

Might not be buyouts - which would be a huge positive because that would mean 2 of Gomez, Bourque, or Kaberle played well enough to generate positive trade value.

There is an opportunity to evaluate the situation with this shortened season and that is great...we will find out next summer what direction management takes.
considering he's making 3 Mil or so, I highly doubt Bourque will be bought out.

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01-09-2013, 11:35 AM
  #290
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One of those names are not like the others. Don't think Kaberle is valueless enough to buyout. I'm sure some team will want a puck moving D, with the ability to reduce player's cap in trades he shouldn't be that hard to deal. Bourque makes less than 1M more than Prust, again he's not a good player by any stretch but doubt he's valueles. Markov is either a good asset or injured, definitely not buyout material.

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01-09-2013, 11:39 AM
  #291
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One of those names are not like the others. Don't think Kaberle is valueless enough to buyout. I'm sure some team will want a puck moving D, with the ability to reduce player's cap in trades he shouldn't be that hard to deal. Bourque makes less than 1M more than Prust, again he's not a good player by any stretch but doubt he's valueles. Markov is either a good asset or injured, definitely not buyout material.
Agreed, some fans forget that with the Habs he did well offensively, he had a pace of 40+ pts, if he can keep it up and do something close, he'll have some value even though he isnt all that great defensively.

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01-09-2013, 11:41 AM
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that 1/3 will likely be the cost for a replacement, or close to it. So you'd be saving a few hundreds K at best. And that's for one season only as he's UFA after that.
But they have a ton more cap room if a good player becomes available. Plus if Gomez isn't playing top 9 I doubt he is a happy camper. It's not all about money it's about a happy and cohesive team.

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01-09-2013, 11:42 AM
  #293
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considering he's making 3 Mil or so, I highly doubt Bourque will be bought out.
I have my doubts as well. More importantly, I'd like to give all three a chance to play before deciding which one should be bought out.

But, cap space will still have to be cleared and compliance buyouts make it easy to do (much easier than finding a trading partner for a player that has played bad enough to deserve a buyout - without taking on a problem in return - which is very important considering the goal is to clear cap space).

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01-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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considering he's making 3 Mil or so, I highly doubt Bourque will be bought out.
That's a point I have been making for a few days...at 3.3 mil cap hit Bourque doesn't need to be Jerome Iginla to be worth his cap hit or have trade value.

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01-09-2013, 11:43 AM
  #295
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But they have a ton more cap room if a good player becomes available. Plus if Gomez isn't playing top 9 I doubt he is a happy camper. It's not all about money it's about a happy and cohesive team.
dont remember the details but I think it hasnt changed in regards to buyout, unless he's part of amnesty buyout, the % of salary you pay still count against the cap.

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01-09-2013, 11:46 AM
  #296
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That's a point I have been making for a few days...at 3.3 mil cap hit Bourque doesn't need to be Jerome Iginla to be worth his cap hit or have trade value.
Think people tend to forget how much 50/60 pts players cost... some seems to think that by freeing 3mil you save enough to grab one of those guy.

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01-09-2013, 11:50 AM
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dont remember the details but I think it hasnt changed in regards to buyout, unless he's part of amnesty buyout, the % of salary you pay still count against the cap.
Amnesty buyouts cost 2/3 of the money but ZERO of the cap hit...so with Gomez you vacate 7.35 mil for next year. Makes it an automatic.

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01-09-2013, 11:53 AM
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Think people tend to forget how much 50/60 pts players cost... some seems to think that by freeing 3mil you save enough to grab one of those guy.
Yup, if Bourque goes 12-12-24 and you buy him out...well you have to turn around and spend at least as much and probably more to sign a similar UFA who will have his own "zits".

If he ends up on the 4th line and puts up 5-8-13 then it's a no brainer.

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01-09-2013, 11:56 AM
  #299
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Amnesty buyouts cost 2/3 of the money but ZERO of the cap hit...so with Gomez you vacate 7.35 mil for next year. Makes it an automatic.
chances are, he'll be the only one bought out if cap space is needed. at 4Mil Kaberle just has to keep producing offensively like he did with us to have trade value, Markov is either on IR or one of our top 3 D like someone else mentionned, and at 3 Mil there's no point in buying out Bourque as his replacement would cost the same or close so there would be no space saved.

But, lets say you manage to trade Kaberle or another 4 / 5 mil guy, you have saved money, you may not need to buyout Gomez and his huge cap hit for ONE year.

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01-09-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yup, if Bourque goes 12-12-24 and you buy him out...well you have to turn around and spend at least as much and probably more to sign a similar UFA who will have his own "zits".

If he ends up on the 4th line and puts up 5-8-13 then it's a no brainer.
not too worried about stats as shorted seasons can mess them up a lot (good or bad), I mean if Moen is on fire for 10/15 games he could end up with 25/30 pts, but that doesnt make him a 2nd liner...

same for Bourque, as long as work ethic is there as he's developping chimestry with Plekanec (dont think he will, defensive load is too heavy fr Bourque imo) or anoher C thats good to me, and put up some points obviously.

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