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Habs-Flyers proposal

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Old
01-09-2013, 07:54 AM
  #151
jpchabby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Sorry to interject. However, I would point out that if we do stuff like that then Subban is MILES ahead of Chara because of how much significantly better Subban's 1st two years have been than Chara's 1st two years were. Would you take Subban over Chara for the next 3 years? Right now, who would you rather have, Chara or Subban? Most teams would say Chara unless they were a rebuilding team. Using your logic, though, Subban will be even better than Chara because his 1st two seasons in the NHL were significantly better than Chara's.

The whole problem with potential and figuring out values is that people always assume their rookie WILL achieve that great potential. The reality is that far more fall off than jump on, so to speak. Yes, Couturier shows the potential to be like or even better than Plekanec. However, it was ONE season. He may very well regress, or slow down in his development, or any other number of things. Potential is not a guarantee. That is why a player in his prime is going to be worth more, to certain teams, than a rookie who might exceed, equal, or never get to that established player's value.

I seem to recall having this exact same argument with some Philly fans after JvR had his great post season run a few years back. He was also untouchable and would become the next best thing to sliced bread. Where is he playing, again? I am not trying to be a smart@$$, just making a point about how perceived potential is not always better than actual proven production. If you tell me Couturier is better than Sam Gagner, I agree in a heartbeat. If you tell me he is better than Plekanec, I would say not yet, and maybe not ever. "Potential" vs "Actual". Something to think about.
That was exactly my point. I don't completely reject the possibility that Couturier might one day have better offensive numbers than Plekanec or anything of the kind. But since it's his potential and therefore has a possibility of not happening, I don't think a gm would consider him to have more value than Plek.

That is unless the gm wants to do a complete rebuild and start a new team with young players. Then it's different...

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Old
01-09-2013, 07:56 AM
  #152
PATCHESx67
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
Wow, just wow. If the Flyers offered Couts for Plekanec straight up some of you would say no? That is amazing. A #1 center for the next 10 years and you'd say no. Just wow.
Couts will not be a #1 center

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Old
01-09-2013, 08:05 AM
  #153
IceDaddy
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Couts will not be a #1 center

Neither is Pleks.

Id rather have Coots than Pleks.

Gally
Coots
Eller


not a bad 1-2-3 for the next 10ish years

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Old
01-09-2013, 08:14 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
I don't consider myself a homer at all, but after watching hockey for 40 + years, I know how valuable an outstanding defenceman is. If the Flyers could get PK straight up for Couts, they would be all over it. The only possible fly in the ointment will be the kind of contract PK gets in the next few days. If he's severely over paid, his value might drop.
Until a contract gets inked, I wouldn't move a piece like Couturier for an asset that could very well disappear on you.

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Old
01-09-2013, 08:48 AM
  #155
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
Couts will not be a #1 center
Incorrect. He is not a #1 center, yet. He might never be. He might become the next Giroux. It is up in the air.

I would also have to point out that Plekanec is not a #1 center, either. At least, he shouldn't be.

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Old
01-09-2013, 10:10 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Incorrect. He is not a #1 center, yet. He might never be. He might become the next Giroux. It is up in the air.

I would also have to point out that Plekanec is not a #1 center, either. At least, he shouldn't be.
I don't want Couturier on the Canadiens ever for the simple fact that I'm tired of hearing about how amazing he is HFboards!

I'd rather him bust in Philadelphia than get traded to Montreal and become a HOFer!

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Old
01-09-2013, 01:10 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Stizzle View Post
I think most Couts supporters have given up on this thread, and with good reason.
You do know that Couturier played 3 years in Quebec for Drummondville and a lot of Hab fans are also Q fans and have followed and watched him play for close to 5 years now. In this thread it's like Philly fans are acting like no one on the Hab's know anything about their players.

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Old
01-09-2013, 02:13 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
You do know that Couturier played 3 years in Quebec for Drummondville and a lot of Hab fans are also Q fans and have followed and watched him play for close to 5 years now. In this thread it's like Philly fans are acting like no one on the Hab's know anything about their players.
Doesn't matter what team you're a fan of, if you believe it's reasonable that Plekanec holds more value than Couturier in a trade you don't know anything about Couturier or his potential. There's a reason why players like Couturier get hyped and "overrated" like already developed stars like Toews, Datsyuk, Bergeron, M.Richards. Plekanec is 30 Couturier is 19

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01-09-2013, 02:48 PM
  #159
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What's a proven asset in a trade ? A player that had one great first season and could improve or one that has been reliable for six seasons ?

Here we are not talking about value at all, we're talking about proven assets. Plekanec has proven being an incredible asset, compiling impressive defensive skills while adding points and playing with questionable wingers.

In terms of VALUE only, Couturier is definitely better than Plekanec, there's no question about it. The reason is POTENTIAL. Couturier has the potential to become a player like Pavel Datsyuk, Patrice Bergeron, Tomas Plekanec or Jordan Staal. Though, the only outstanding player in there is Pavel Datsyuk that is a 1st center and won the Selke 3 years in a row.

Patrice Bergeron won a Selke trophy and had 22 goals, 64 points that year and was +36. The same year, Plekanec had 22 goals, 57 points but was +8. Does that mean Bergeron is better offensively ? Not really. Defensively ? It really depends in which situation they were playing and who were their wingers.

Now, what will Couturier become ? A Datsyuk, Bergeron/Plekanec or a Staal ? He has the potential to become a Datsyuk, but he ONLY PLAYED ONE YEAR. Plus he's only 20 years old.

Plekanec has been playing for six seasons now and has become the most reliable forward of the team that can play in every situation. He plays against top lines, in PP, PK, always with different wingers.

At the moment, for the Habs, I'd rather have a proven reliable player like Plekanec that we know very well what he can do, than having a very promising young player that could as well end up a Plekanec as well. Especially not at the expense of PK Subban.

Like mentionned by some others, we already have someone that has great potential to be better than Plekanec and that is Eller. Flyers fans will not agree, but Blues fans might, since some were quite displeased to hear they had lost Eller to get Halak. Eller is bigger than Plekanec and has a great vision for good plays. If he could put on some muscle and play more physically, he'd be even greater than Plekanec. But at the moment, he needs to be shown the way.

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Old
01-09-2013, 03:02 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Doesn't matter what team you're a fan of, if you believe it's reasonable that Plekanec holds more value than Couturier in a trade you don't know anything about Couturier or his potential. There's a reason why players like Couturier get hyped and "overrated" like already developed stars like Toews, Datsyuk, Bergeron, M.Richards. Plekanec is 30 Couturier is 19
I don't think anyone here honestly thinks that the Flyers would trade Couturier for Plekanec straight up. To me, the deal was - more or less - Subban for Couturier
Pleks for Voracek.


Personally, I wouldn't trade Subban for less then Couturier + 2013 1st, otherwise I'd keep Subban. Philly might not like it but that's to me what it would take. Overpayment, but not by much.

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01-09-2013, 05:24 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I don't think anyone here honestly thinks that the Flyers would trade Couturier for Plekanec straight up. To me, the deal was - more or less - Subban for Couturier
Pleks for Voracek.


Personally, I wouldn't trade Subban for less then Couturier + 2013 1st, otherwise I'd keep Subban. Philly might not like it but that's to me what it would take. Overpayment, but not by much.
thats why its been so frustrating. voracek for subban is about fair with the other two there for arguments sake

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Old
01-09-2013, 10:43 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
thats why its been so frustrating. voracek for subban is about fair with the other two there for arguments sake
LOL no.

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Old
01-09-2013, 10:45 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
thats why its been so frustrating. voracek for subban is about fair with the other two there for arguments sake
LOL, that's hysterical! And if you believe that then you are totally out of touch.

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Old
01-09-2013, 10:49 PM
  #164
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Pleks and Markov for

Couturier and 1st probably in the range of 25-30?

Markov is healthy and can play big minutes again, played over 18 just on Tuesday I believe

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Old
01-10-2013, 05:55 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by AmeriHab View Post
Pleks and Markov for

Couturier and 1st probably in the range of 25-30?

Markov is healthy and can play big minutes again, played over 18 just on Tuesday I believe
Maybe 5 years ago when Markov was dominating. Now though, the flyers dont touch this. Not even close....

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Old
01-10-2013, 07:48 AM
  #166
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Maybe 5 years ago when Markov was dominating. Now though, the flyers dont touch this. Not even close....
I am glad they don't touch this. Markov looks like he is healthy and is getting his legs and timing back. A nice, short season like this to get him back to even close to what he was and he will easily be worth more than a 1st. If he regresses? We can always dump him for a lower pick or buy out his contract. The possibility that he returns to some semblance of his former self is just worth too much to lose him for a late 1st at this point in time.

I don't see Philly risking a 1st on him either, by the way. As far as the Couturier vs Plekanec part, anyone who wants can re-read the thread.

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