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Old
01-09-2013, 04:08 PM
  #426
JGRB
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
You totaly agree with "he has only played two full seasons in the NHL and has yet to establish himself as a true #1 defenseman on and off the ice" yet don't think Markov is the #1.

Who is?
Markov has yet to prove he can play at the level he once did. I'm going off actual facts, and you know what? Almost every hockey analyst had said the same. So there's that.

If Markov reaches his previous level of play, he will eclipse PK.

HE HAS YET TO PROVE THIS.

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01-09-2013, 04:10 PM
  #427
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The Markov is elite talk is just as ridiculous as Gomez being a top line center. Are we back in 2007?

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01-09-2013, 04:14 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The Markov is elite talk is just as ridiculous as Gomez being a top line center. Are we back in 2007?
elite for our team yes.

Elite in the NHL? not anymore (it's hard to judge)

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01-09-2013, 04:16 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Markov has yet to prove he can play at the level he once did. I'm going off actual facts, and you know what? Almost every hockey analyst had said the same. So there's that.

If Markov reaches his previous level of play, he will eclipse PK.

HE HAS YET TO PROVE THIS.
Ditto for PK. I guess they both have a lot of proving to do. Hopefully they both will and the Habs will have 2 #1 defensmen.

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01-09-2013, 04:16 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The Markov is elite talk is just as ridiculous as Gomez being a top line center. Are we back in 2007?
It's almost trolling is what it is.

The guy has barely played any hockey in almost 3 years now and has had two major surgeries on a key component of his mobility.

Thinking he will be as good as new, while entirely possible, is extremely naive.

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01-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #431
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yes but remeber that Markov had just come back from his second major knee surgery and the Habs were already out of the playoffs. Markov was inthe line up more to get his feet wet than to compete. Many people were saying to leave him out all together until he for sure knew his knee was 100% during the off season.

With his play in the KHL and another summer of rehab, there's no reason now to think his knee isn't at 100% and he canbare the ice time he used to play before the injury. He's averaged more than 21min. a gme in the KHL this year.
Well, there's no reason to believe he's 100% back to form either. 20ish games in the KHL is far from proving anything. Not to mention, he got injured to the upper body during that time. I'm not saying Markov is finished, far from it, all I'm saying is you can't definitively say he's our #1. He needs to prove it, and prove it in the NHL, not the KHL.
This debate however, is pretty useless and stupid. Both PK and Markov are key players for us that need to be at the top of their game. Who'll be more effective is a crap shoot at this point.

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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
I think many people forget just how good Andrei Markov was in his prime. At one time, he was one of the best defenseman in the world, if you ask me.
I certainly didn't forget. I was arguing he was a top 5 D in the NHL during his prime. His vision, passing, defensive skills and overall play was just crazy good. It's a damn shame he got injured just as he entered his prime.
However, Markov has suffered major injuries these past couple years and barely played in the NHL. It's only normal for him to have taken steps backwards, and I don't think 20ish games in the KHL means he can come back in the NHL and be amazing right off the bat.
The one thing he has going for himself is that unlike many other NHLers, he comes into camp having played some hockey, so hopefully that helps him not be a step behind the others.

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Because the Pens have no depth at centre right?
Well then you're contributing our record without Markov to the lack of depth more so than to his presence.
The loss of a #1 D on an average team is undeniable. Imagine our record without PK two years ago? Or heck, even last year despite our already poor record.
You can look at our POs record too, when we lost Markov but had PK, and still beat Pittsburgh, the defending champs.
Having both those guys is amazing. Both can be on par, but because of Markov's injuries and age, it's only normal for PK to be ahead. But that can change if Markov proves to be solid and back to his good ways. In the end however, as I said before, it doesn't really matter, they are both top Dmen.

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01-09-2013, 04:20 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Ditto for PK. I guess they both have a lot of proving to do. Hopefully they both will and the Habs will have 2 #1 defensmen.
PK may be inconsistent, but in he was very good late in the year in both his seasons. He's become a great penalty killer and an excellent even strength defenseman. We know what to expect from him at this point.

I hope to god your right about Markov. I'm just trying to be realistic and not get my hopes up.

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01-09-2013, 04:20 PM
  #433
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Ditto for PK. I guess they both have a lot of proving to do. Hopefully they both will and the Habs will have 2 #1 defensmen.
What do you mean ditto for PK?? He has been a stud Dman for us these past two years. He needs to prove he can get into the 50-60pt mark, Markov not only needs to prove that but also show that he can remain healthy. PK doesn't have to show this at all, he's been healthy.

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01-09-2013, 04:21 PM
  #434
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Non-related question here but did markov had the same surgery that rg3 got today?

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01-09-2013, 04:33 PM
  #435
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Non-related question here but did markov had the same surgery that rg3 got today?
Both had torn ACL's. Markov had a torn meniscus too the 2nd time (in December 2010), while RG3 also has LCL damage.

Both surgeries were done by Dr. James Andrews too. And this is RG3's 2nd ACL tear on the same knee, just like Markov.

EDIT: Apparently RG3's ACL wasn't completely torn, if he wasn't an athlete he wouldn't need surgery. But they still re-did it today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...1/?sf8466200=1

BTW, if it's true the PA is taking until Saturday to ratify the deal and nothing can happen transaction wise until then, chances are probably fairly strong Subban won't be signed once camp opens on Sunday, which will be a total frenzy for media. Ugh. There won't be a lot of time to get a deal done, probably less than 24 hours.


Last edited by Marc the Habs Fan: 01-09-2013 at 05:10 PM.
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01-09-2013, 04:33 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, there's no reason to believe he's 100% back to form either. 20ish games in the KHL is far from proving anything. Not to mention, he got injured to the upper body during that time. I'm not saying Markov is finished, far from it, all I'm saying is you can't definitively say he's our #1. He needs to prove it, and prove it in the NHL, not the KHL.
This debate however, is pretty useless and stupid. Both PK and Markov are key players for us that need to be at the top of their game. Who'll be more effective is a crap shoot at this point.


Well then you're contributing our record without Markov to the lack of depth more so than to his presence.
The loss of a #1 D on an average team is undeniable. Imagine our record without PK two years ago? Or heck, even last year despite our already poor record.
You can look at our POs record too, when we lost Markov but had PK, and still beat Pittsburgh, the defending champs.
Having both those guys is amazing. Both can be on par, but because of Markov's injuries and age, it's only normal for PK to be ahead. But that can change if Markov proves to be solid and back to his good ways. In the end however, as I said before, it doesn't really matter, they are both top Dmen.
I agree with the fact it's a useless debate. Fact is, they can both be top tier defensmen. They both need to show they can play well consistantly and be as good as they've both shown they can be.

I take issue with people making PK our defacto #1 when he's had two inconsitent, up and down seasons to his name. I'm not ready to concede he's the #1 but I do agree that Markov has to play to the level he did before he got injured. His play at the end of last season and in the KHL are very positive signs thus far. His upper body is not his knee.

Quote:
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PK may be inconsistent, but in he was very good late in the year in both his seasons. He's become a great penalty killer and an excellent even strength defenseman. We know what to expect from him at this point.

I hope to god your right about Markov. I'm just trying to be realistic and not get my hopes up.
As I said above, PK has has 2 up and down seasons and has been far from consistnet. It's completely normal for a rookie defensmen to go through what he did and he heldup very well to the pressure. Still, he hasn't proved he's the #1 just yet with his play just yet.

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What do you mean ditto for PK?? He has been a stud Dman for us these past two years. He needs to prove he can get into the 50-60pt mark, Markov not only needs to prove that but also show that he can remain healthy. PK doesn't have to show this at all, he's been healthy.
I don't know what games you've been watching but I don't think you will find a single Habs fan or otherwise who can honestly say that PK was a stud for 2 entire seasons. He was wildly inconsistent and his play was erratic for most of the time. He played well down the stretch but in both seasons he had terrible starts. If you honestly beleive he was a "stud" for the past 2 years than arguing this point with you will be moot. Quite simply put, he wasn't.

Markov has already paid his dues and shown he can be a top tier defensman. I don't think it's a matter of Markov proving anything but rather getting back to a level of play he's demonstrated this year and last that he's capable of playing.

I'm always going to give the edge to a player who's accomplished something over one who hasn't yet. I hope I'm wrong and they give each other a run for their money. That's when you know the Habs will have a great defense corp.

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01-09-2013, 04:50 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I agree with the fact it's a useless debate. Fact is, they can both be top tier defensmen. They both need to show they can play well consistantly and be as good as they've both shown they can be.

I take issue with people making PK our defacto #1 when he's had two inconsitent, up and down seasons to his name. I'm not ready to concede he's the #1 but I do agree that Markov has to play to the level he did before he got injured. His play at the end of last season and in the KHL are very positive signs thus far. His upper body is not his knee.



As I said above, PK has has 2 up and down seasons and has been far from consistnet. It's completely normal for a rookie defensmen to go through what he did and he heldup very well to the pressure. Still, he hasn't proved he's the #1 just yet with his play just yet.



I don't know what games you've been watching but I don't think you will find a single Habs fan or otherwise who can honestly say that PK was a stud for 2 entire seasons. He was wildly inconsistent and his play was erratic for most of the time. He played well down the stretch but in both seasons he had terrible starts. If you honestly beleive he was a "stud" for the past 2 years than arguing this point with you will be moot. Quite simply put, he wasn't.

Markov has already paid his dues and shown he can be a top tier defensman. I don't think it's a matter of Markov proving anything but rather getting back to a level of play he's demonstrated this year and last that he's capable of playing.

I'm always going to give the edge to a player who's accomplished something over one who hasn't yet. I hope I'm wrong and they give each other a run for their money. That's when you know the Habs will have a great defense corp.
The bolded part I definitely agree with you on. His starts in 2010 and 2011 were both borderline abysmal. I think this season is a pretty good test for PK, as a matter of fact. It's a shortened season and every game matters. He needs to play strong from start to finish here if he wants to truly establish himself as a bonafide #1 defenseman.

I think ATM P.K Subban is a poor man's #1 defenseman. He still has to get more consistent, and needs to put up another 10-15pts per season in order to get into the "elite" #1 defenseman category. His PK-ES play has been at the level of an elite #1 defenseman *when he's been on his game* (down the stretch in 2011, and down the stretch in 2012). Today, on a great team PK is an elite #2 and on a team like Montreal he is an average #1. Markov was an elite #1 on a great team, a Top-5 defenseman league wide. Subban is quite easily in the top 30-35 right now. So he's close to being a "#1 defenseman".

I think they will both have very comparable seasons actually, and unfortunately this debate (I agree also that it's pointless) will continue to rage on through next season. I'm expecting around .5PPG from both guys.

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01-09-2013, 04:55 PM
  #438
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The bolded part I definitely agree with you on. His starts in 2010 and 2011 were both borderline abysmal. I think this season is a pretty good test for PK, as a matter of fact. It's a shortened season and every game matters. He needs to play strong from start to finish here if he wants to truly establish himself as a bonafide #1 defenseman.

I think ATM P.K Subban is a poor man's #1 defenseman. He still has to get more consistent, and needs to put up another 10-15pts per season in order to get into the "elite" #1 defenseman category. His PK-ES play has been at the level of an elite #1 defenseman *when he's been on his game* (down the stretch in 2011, and down the stretch in 2012). Today, on a great team PK is an elite #2 and on a team like Montreal he is an average #1. Markov was an elite #1 on a great team, a Top-5 defenseman league wide. Subban is quite easily in the top 30-35 right now. So he's close to being a "#1 defenseman".

I think they will both have very comparable seasons actually, and unfortunately this debate (I agree also that it's pointless) will continue to rage on through next season. I'm expecting around .5PPG from both guys.
I hope it's a debate over who's better for a long time. Habs and fans will be benefactors of such a debate for the better.

No doubting PK has all the talent, he needs to stop talking and worry about his game until he's consistent enough to be able to run his mouth.

One good thing about Therrien (as much as it pains me to say it) is that I doubt he lets PK run around without cracking the whip. I agree with you that this should be a very important year for PK's development. I hope it's one where he can have a breakout year like Patches did last year. I'm starting to think he won't because of all the publicity he gets. He needs to put his head down and work to be the best he can be, if he can do that, he'll be better than Markov.

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01-09-2013, 05:11 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I'm not sure what you mean with your post. Could you please elaborate.

If I'm not supposed to use the last 2 full seasons that Markov was in and out of the line up, than what else am I supposed to use. The facts are they facts. When he was in the line up, they won. When he wasn't they lost. I think that's pretty clear. Saying they have a different team now and so on doesn't change what their record was with and without Markov. Trying to extrapolate anything from that is futile and only muddy's the waters, which is why you're not seeing it for what it is. Habs are much better with Markov than not. Don't see how you're arguing against this.
Let's look at the latest record:

With the small sample we have from the 11-12 season; with Markov 5-3-5, without Markov 26-32-11. This actually does coincide with the Habs being stronger with Markov.

Where I am skeptical is how much better are the habs with Markov in this lineup. I don't believe, probably because I am pessimistic after last season, that the teams previous success (With Koivu, Kovalev the team achieved first in the east and with Gomez and company they went to the east finals) with Markov is any gauge at how this team will perform this season.

But after reading the person you quoted and seeing what you were arguing against...

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My point is winning% can't be tied to one player unless it's a goalie.
A team can win more because of one top end player in the lineup, and who loses more when said player is missing. Markov is proof that the Montreal Canadiens had this one player in the 09-10 season.


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That's silly because you completely ignore all other factors that contribute to wins and losses. It's silly.
This is what he said:

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
What does winning % have to do with anything?? Really? If a team wins the vast majority of the games they play with a particular player and loses the vast majority of games without him, then yes, I put stock in that.
He is right to put stock in a teams ability to win more with one player than when that player is missing. He didn't say he was putting the farm on this one aspect, just some stock. It's not the only thing he thinks is important, it's one of many.

Markov finding his form and influencing the game the same way as he did would be great, and even better if it can compliment Subban' style. I hope they can co exist and bring success. Again, I am just pessimistic.

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01-09-2013, 05:18 PM
  #440
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So in one week we have people saying that we should trade Subban and buyout Markov? Thank the lord none of you are GMs

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01-09-2013, 05:46 PM
  #441
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So in one week we have people saying that we should trade Subban and buyout Markov? Thank the lord none of you are GMs
Who is saying that?

The only scenario in which trading Subban makes sense is if he asks for more than he's worth and refuses to accept his real value. Then you trade him to someone willing to pay him and receive a great asset in return, it's the only way I'd do it.

Buyout Markov isn't even an option either, barring an absolute bomb of a season. He'd have to be outplayed by every defender on this club including Kaberle.. It's just not going to happen.

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01-09-2013, 06:30 PM
  #442
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Same people who says to sign him now are the same people who'll bash the Habs if it's for too much. In a similar market, this guy deserve John Carlson's money. Tyler Myers??? Well that's 5,5 M$ cap hit in the old CBA. Add the fact that we have Price who has a 6,5 M$ salary cap and should be our best paid guy, and you might have a Subban between 5 M$ and 5,5 M$ at best, for 5 years. Everything more than that is ludicrous and unfair, and Bergevin shouldn't move from this.

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01-09-2013, 06:54 PM
  #443
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PK is gonna get around 5M and there is no way around it...just pony up boys, and then market him as one of the core...

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01-09-2013, 07:01 PM
  #444
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At this point, as King and GM, I trade his money grubbing antics for a (some first rounders next year)! Trying not get banned so I am using as many smilies as I can match my emotions...

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01-09-2013, 07:09 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
yes but remeber that Markov had just come back from his second major knee surgery and the Habs were already out of the playoffs. Markov was inthe line up more to get his feet wet than to compete. Many people were saying to leave him out all together until he for sure knew his knee was 100% during the off season.

With his play in the KHL and another summer of rehab, there's no reason now to think his knee isn't at 100% and he canbare the ice time he used to play before the injury. He's averaged more than 21min. a gme in the KHL this year.
Markov has actually had three major knee injuries since the end of the 09 season.

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01-09-2013, 07:14 PM
  #446
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PK is gonna get around 5M and there is no way around it...just pony up boys, and then market him as one of the core...
He will be signed by the weekend.

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01-09-2013, 09:20 PM
  #447
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carried the team to last place, loved that Gionta interview from yesterday

"Havent seen Pk in 6 months guess theres not enough promo work for him to be in Montreal"

+A couple weeks ago gionta was pissed at him for not inviting any of the habs player training in montreal to play in the team subban vs team stamkos game
Where's this interview - I'd like to read it. Or is it a video?

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01-09-2013, 09:26 PM
  #448
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Both had torn ACL's. Markov had a torn meniscus too the 2nd time (in December 2010), while RG3 also has LCL damage.

Both surgeries were done by Dr. James Andrews too. And this is RG3's 2nd ACL tear on the same knee, just like Markov.

EDIT: Apparently RG3's ACL wasn't completely torn, if he wasn't an athlete he wouldn't need surgery. But they still re-did it today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...1/?sf8466200=1

BTW, if it's true the PA is taking until Saturday to ratify the deal and nothing can happen transaction wise until then, chances are probably fairly strong Subban won't be signed once camp opens on Sunday, which will be a total frenzy for media. Ugh. There won't be a lot of time to get a deal done, probably less than 24 hours.
Meehan knows this and will use it as a bigger leverage against Bergevin.

The guy doesn't run his mouth all over like Walsh but he clearly is a GM's nightmare.

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01-09-2013, 10:17 PM
  #449
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Oh! Yeah! Gotta sign PK. Question is, for how much? 30 million over 6 years? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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01-09-2013, 11:11 PM
  #450
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Interesting fact: Don Meehan graduated from Mcgill University!

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