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Old
01-09-2013, 01:11 PM
  #51
CaptainCrunch67
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If Calgary was going to aquire a center a Sam Gagner type is not the center they would be looking for, they already have enough undersized players up front.

If they were going to trade Bou for a center they would certainly want to bring in a skilled center with size who is a defensive zone faceoff specialist.

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01-09-2013, 01:12 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
With the addition of the salary cap trading that is apparently rumored to be included in the CBA http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...re-cba-details

Flames get: Sam Gagner (1 year $3.2)
keep $1.5 of Bowmeesters salary for each of the two years

Oilers get:
Bowmeester (2 years $6.68 - $1.5 = $5.18)

Oilers get a speedy 1-2 Defenceman who will be able to keep up with their fast young team at a $5M salary for 2 years
Flames get a great young C who could fit anywhere from lines 1-3
No thanks, and I like Gagner. I wouldn't give you Bouw straight up for him, let alone pay him to play for the Oilers.

Gagner is more of what we already have. 2nd-3rd line inconsistent C's.

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01-09-2013, 01:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
No thanks, and I like Gagner. I wouldn't give you Bouw straight up for him, let alone pay him to play for the Oilers.

Gagner is more of what we already have. 2nd-3rd line inconsistent C's.
Take it for what you will but Sam Gagner would have been by far the 5th leading scorer on the Flames last year and only 2 points off 3rd (albeit in more games but with less PP time and less ideal linemates than Tanguay). Even Cammaleri only scored at a pace 4 points better than Gagner in a Flames uniform. Not really tying to argue for anything just pointing out that perhaps you have less Gagners than you think.

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01-09-2013, 01:37 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Take it for what you will but Sam Gagner would have been by far the 5th leading scorer on the Flames last year and only 2 points off 3rd (albeit in more games but with less PP time and less ideal linemates than Tanguay). Even Cammaleri only scored at a pace 4 points better than Gagner in a Flames uniform. Not really tying to argue for anything just pointing out that perhaps you have less Gagners than you think.
Tangauy/Cammy will be filling those top line center spots (we will see how that goes). I think Gagner would help the flames, but he is a redundant piece right now and we open a huge hole on D without fixing our C issue.

Cervenka will also probably post comparable numbers to Gagner.

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01-09-2013, 01:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
With the addition of the salary cap trading that is apparently rumored to be included in the CBA http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...re-cba-details

Flames get: Sam Gagner (1 year $3.2)
keep $1.5 of Bowmeesters salary for each of the two years

Oilers get:
Bowmeester (2 years $6.68 - $1.5 = $5.18)

Oilers get a speedy 1-2 Defenceman who will be able to keep up with their fast young team at a $5M salary for 2 years
Flames get a great young C who could fit anywhere from lines 1-3
Please just shut up no one wants washed up bowmeester for 4 mil let alone 5.18...and trading a young stud where the Sky is still the limit would sound pretty stupid...

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01-09-2013, 01:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kresco View Post
hahaha once again someone who looks at paper stats. Who was Smid's partner?
Jeff Petry

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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
Was Smid matched up consitantly agains the Malkin's / Stamko's of the league?
Yes

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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
Bowmeester was paired with Butler a kid who couldnt crack Buffalo's line up even on the bottom paring. Bowmeester was then matched up against the top offensive lines in the NHL with a guy who would be a 5-6 Def max on most teams.
Smid plays with Petry who would be a 5-6 on most teams.

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Originally Posted by kresco View Post
He was not given alot of PP time as we was used alot for the PK.
So was Smid.

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Originally Posted by HellsBells View Post
Welcome to HFBoards... where guys like Ladislav Smid can be better Jay Bouwmeester.

You realize Bouwmeester makes 7 million a season right? I'd much rather have Smid, no question.

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Old
01-09-2013, 01:45 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?

3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0

I'm not a huge fan of JBo but people forgetting he was a mobile offensive dman previous to playing in Calgary and almost all teams trying to get him ufa.

Overpaid? Yes
5/6 dman? Not likely
Worth more than Smid to non oilers? Very likely.

For the record, I think Smid is a good 2nd pairing defensive guy.
Points points points points points and more points.

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01-09-2013, 01:49 PM
  #58
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It doesn't matter if Smid is better than Bouwmeester or not since the OP doesn't have Smid going the other way.

The issue is whether or not Bouwmeester is worth trading Gagner for (from an Edmonton POV), which I'm not so sure he is. And I like Bouwmeester.

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01-09-2013, 01:54 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?

3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0


I'm not a huge fan of JBo but people forgetting he was a mobile offensive dman previous to playing in Calgary and almost all teams trying to get him ufa.

Overpaid? Yes
5/6 dman? Not likely
Worth more than Smid to non oilers? Very likely.

For the record, I think Smid is a good 2nd pairing defensive guy.
How many seasons has he put up those kind of numbers since going to Calgary?

The funny thing is Smids offense is almost non-exsistant and he actually tied Bouwmeester in goals last year (after not scoring for two years)

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01-09-2013, 01:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?

3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0
And when was the last time he hit either of those marks? Smid is a black hole offensively and he had just as many goals as Bouwmeester last year (the highest goal totals for both players in the last 3 seasons). What does that tell you? We're also talking about Bouwmeester's 178+ minutes of powerplay time last year vs just under 5 minutes for Smid.

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01-09-2013, 02:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
You could get Arnott for your 2nd line center? It's much harder to find a Top pairing capable d vs 2c.
Arnott is not a 2nd line center caliber player, this is ludicrous. Even if he was how do we know he would he sign here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?

3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0

I'm not a huge fan of JBo but people forgetting he was a mobile offensive dman previous to playing in Calgary and almost all teams trying to get him ufa.
By that logic Horcoff should be judged on the seasons he had before his big contract. This just makes no sense. There's a lot more wrong with this post but the basic premise is so ridiculous i won't bother to waste my time.

Quote:

Worth more than Smid to non oilers? Very likely.
Proof? What did Bouwmeester do last year that was so muh more impressive? Is 5 more EVstrength points and his ability to ideally play 2nd unit PP worth that many millions more? Is it worth getting a guy who by the stats and eye is a clearly less capable defensive player? I like Bouwmeester and really do feel he's a #2 guy, like Smid, but his contrat is prohibitive and giving up Gagner for him when we have Smid is a very poor idea.

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01-09-2013, 02:07 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Arnott is not a 2nd line center caliber player, this is ludicrous. Even if he was how do we know he would he sign here?



By that logic Horcoff should be judged on the seasons he had before his big contract. This just makes no sense. There's a lot more wrong with this post but the basic premise is so ridiculous i won't bother to waste my time.



Proof? What did Bouwmeester do last year that was so muh more impressive? Is 5 more EVstrength points and his ability to ideally play 2nd unit PP worth that many millions more? Is it worth getting a guy who by the stats and eye is a clearly less capable defensive player? I like Bouwmeester and really do feel he's a #2 guy, like Smid, but his contrat is prohibitive and giving up Gagner for him when we have Smid is a very poor idea.
No, its his Minutes per Game and his ability to take just about anyone (Butler as an example) onto his pairing make them look better. Bouwmeester may be overpaid, under producing and soft but one thing he does really well is slow down the game for the rest of the line, and makes his defensive partner look great. I don't think Smid has those abilities to the same degree as Bouwmeester. Smid is obviously less soft and not overpaid like Bouw however.

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01-09-2013, 02:13 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
No, its his Minutes per Game and his ability to take just about anyone (Butler as an example) onto his pairing make them look better. Bouwmeester may be overpaid, under producing and soft but one thing he does really well is slow down the game for the rest of the line, and makes his defensive partner look great. I don't think Smid has those abilities to the same degree as Bouwmeester. Smid is obviously less soft and not overpaid like Bouw however.
Smid had the most TOI of any Oiler last year and took Petry under his wing and he looked very good.

Bouwmeester does play a lot more minutes (PP time helps) but even with the extra 500 minutes he played last season he still only outscored Smid by 5 ES points and had the same amount of goals even though JayBo gets PP time and Smid gets virtually none.

I wouldn't mind having Jbo just not at the expense of Gagner or Smid, not worth it.

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01-09-2013, 02:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
Smid had the most TOI of any Oiler last year and took Petry under his wing and he looked very good.

Thats irrelevant to Bouw though as he still played far more minutes per night.

Bouwmeester does play a lot more minutes (PP time helps) but even with the extra 500 minutes he played last season he still only outscored Smid by 5 ES points and had the same amount of goals even though JayBo gets PP time and Smid gets virtually none.

Like I said, we all know Bouw under produces I am not trying to argue his has more offensive ability than Smid.

I wouldn't mind having Jbo just not at the expense of Gagner or Smid, not worth it.

And for the Flames we wouldn't mind having Gagner but not at the expense of our best defenseman. Looks like this is a non starter for both clubs.
In bold.

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01-09-2013, 02:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Arnott is not a 2nd line center caliber player, this is ludicrous. Even if he was how do we know he would he sign here?



By that logic Horcoff should be judged on the seasons he had before his big contract. This just makes no sense. There's a lot more wrong with this post but the basic premise is so ridiculous i won't bother to waste my time.



Proof? What did Bouwmeester do last year that was so muh more impressive? Is 5 more EVstrength points and his ability to ideally play 2nd unit PP worth that many millions more? Is it worth getting a guy who by the stats and eye is a clearly less capable defensive player? I like Bouwmeester and really do feel he's a #2 guy, like Smid, but his contrat is prohibitive and giving up Gagner for him when we have Smid is a very poor idea.
Read the posts I was responding to and the premise makes a lot more sense.

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01-09-2013, 03:14 PM
  #66
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bouwmeester is a top pairing d-man on any team in the nhl. he would easily become the top guy in edmonton (smid is not nearly as good, sorry oiler fans).

gagner is a number 2 centre in the nhl who has been extremely inconsistent throughout his career.

no way gagner alone gets jbo.
Gagner is one of the most consistent players in the NHL

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01-09-2013, 03:47 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
In bold.
Don't disagree with any of that.

It's actually insane how many minutes Bouwmeester plays

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01-09-2013, 03:49 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Howabout a career 59 points in 409 games vs 285 in 717?

3 seasons of 40 points vs 0
3 seasons of 10 goals and more vs 0

I'm not a huge fan of JBo but people forgetting he was a mobile offensive dman previous to playing in Calgary and almost all teams trying to get him ufa.

Overpaid? Yes
5/6 dman? Not likely
Worth more than Smid to non oilers? Very likely.

For the record, I think Smid is a good 2nd pairing defensive guy.
There is more to defense than scoring points.

You're looking at the single worst aspect of Smid and comparing it to the single best aspect of Bouwmeester.

I could do the same thing with hits and blocks.

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01-09-2013, 04:36 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
Don't disagree with any of that.

It's actually insane how many minutes Bouwmeester plays
Hes the only D on the team that can really log those kind of minutes and hes been doing it since he arrived. Its probably part of the reason why his offense dried up, on a team like Chicago if he was on the second pairing, I think we would see his production jump back up a bit.

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01-09-2013, 04:39 PM
  #70
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There is more to defense than scoring points.

You're looking at the single worst aspect of Smid and comparing it to the single best aspect of Bouwmeester.

I could do the same thing with hits and blocks.
Oh the irony, not specifically you. In the context of this thread though, gold.

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01-09-2013, 04:43 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Haatley View Post
bouwmeester is a top pairing d-man on any team in the nhl. he would easily become the top guy in edmonton (smid is not nearly as good, sorry oiler fans).

gagner is a number 2 centre in the nhl who has been extremely inconsistent throughout his career.

no way gagner alone gets jbo.
Come on , Gagner inconsistent is a joke . He been very consistent year to year . over 40 points a year never hit 50 ,how more consistent can you get ? He has just never broke out like was expected . Look at his dad ,he never broke out until his mid 20s

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01-09-2013, 04:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Hes the only D on the team that can really log those kind of minutes and hes been doing it since he arrived. Its probably part of the reason why his offense dried up, on a team like Chicago if he was on the second pairing, I think we would see his production jump back up a bit.
It is easy to log big minutes when you don't block shots don't hit and avoid being hit

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01-09-2013, 04:46 PM
  #73
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Come on , Gagner inconsistent is a joke . He been very consistent year to year . over 40 points a year never hit 50 ,how more consistent can you get ? He has just never broke out like was expected . Look at his dad ,he never broke out until his mid 20s
Consistency is measured between games, not over seasons.

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01-09-2013, 04:54 PM
  #74
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Take it for what you will but Sam Gagner would have been by far the 5th leading scorer on the Flames last year and only 2 points off 3rd (albeit in more games but with less PP time and less ideal linemates than Tanguay). Even Cammaleri only scored at a pace 4 points better than Gagner in a Flames uniform. Not really tying to argue for anything just pointing out that perhaps you have less Gagners than you think.
I am probably one of the few Flames fans that like Gagner and think he would fit in well with our team but we just can't move Jbo for him. He was greatly miss used by Sutter and I fully expect him to return to around 40 points a year under Hartley. Also I think he would fit in really well with the Oilers run and gun style and I would hate for him to burn us while we are paying him to do it.

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01-09-2013, 05:02 PM
  #75
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I am probably one of the few Flames fans that like Gagner and think he would fit in well with our team but we just can't move Jbo for him. He was greatly miss used by Sutter and I fully expect him to return to around 40 points a year under Hartley. Also I think he would fit in really well with the Oilers run and gun style and I would hate for him to burn us while we are paying him to do it.
I agree, I think he would be a lot more effective in the Oilers system, him on a pairing with Smid would actually be pretty daunting.

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