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Cherry: CHL should stop letting Americans and Europeans to play in CHL (merged)

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Old
01-09-2013, 12:20 PM
  #701
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The CHL, which feeds the NHL, of which 77% of the teams are located in the U.S. where Canadians, Americans, and whomever else make obscene amounts of money, but heaven forbid foreigners play in Canada's unpaid, amateur league. .

Shut up, Don. Go kill another innocent loveseat for your next blazer.

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01-09-2013, 12:31 PM
  #702
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No, he said the Canadian economy.

There are also around 150 Canadian CHL players on American teams who have not contributed anything to the USA either, and apparently you're fine with that. Don't you think that sounds pretty hypocritical?
I am quite aware that he did say Canadian,I said North American because the Canadian junior league does not consider American players as imports and is fully open to any number of American players willing to play in it.It is just that the US has the NCAA which may or may not be a better hockey program,but is by far superior to anything that the CHL has to offer in the way of education and I would assume most American athletes follow that path.If I were an American I would insist that my child go the NCAA route.

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01-09-2013, 01:06 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
I am quite aware that he did say Canadian,I said North American because the Canadian junior league does not consider American players as imports and is fully open to any number of American players willing to play in it.
That's so gracious of you to allow American teams to sign American players.

Canadian teams make up around 85% of CHL teams, Canadian players make up around 85% of CHL players. Certainly seems fair, so I have to ask again: why in the world would you think Canadian players are entitled to more than that?

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01-09-2013, 01:20 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
That's so gracious of you to allow American teams to sign American players.

Canadian teams make up around 85% of CHL teams, Canadian players make up around 85% of CHL players. Certainly seems fair, so I have to ask again: why in the world would you think Canadian players are entitled to more than that?
I don't think they are entitled to more ,but,if Canadians take up 85%,imports take 9%(2 per team),that only leaves 6% of the league as Americans,I don't know if that is the number,but if it is,they are being under represented by a mile.

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01-09-2013, 01:29 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Don Cherry credits Canada for international juniors' success

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...l-twitter.html





discuss
Cherry was a junior hockey owner for a while, his team the ice dogs wouldn't use imports, and they were the worst team in the league every year. I pay money to watch junior hockey, and its a better product today because of the influx of imported talent. I would much rather see an exciting import like Khokhlachev play in the league than whatever Canadian scrub lost his job to make room for him. What's really funny, the one player Cherry's lousy junior team managed to develop was an american kid who Cherry drafted first over all, Patrick O Sullivan. I guess the birth certificate isn't so important is it Don? Do us all a favor and shut the hell up until you have something worthwhile to say. We get it, you're Canadian Don. You're also an idiot.

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01-09-2013, 01:34 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
I don't think they are entitled to more ,but,if Canadians take up 85%,imports take 9%(2 per team),that only leaves 6% of the league as Americans,I don't know if that is the number,but if it is,they are being under represented by a mile.
Which is actually another thing that doesn´t agree with Cherry´s statements. He is trying to say that the non-Canadians in the CHL are the reason why other teams are improving at Canada´s expense. Yet as you say Americans are actually under represented in the CHL and despite that they have managed to beat Canada big time this time around. The truth is that the CHL and how many non-Canadians play in it has little to no impact on the fact that USA, Sweden and Russia can play at Canada´s level or even better. And if imports/Americans were to be forbidden CHL it would not mean that Canada would start steam rolling through those three teams every single year. The only place where that would happen is in Don Cherry´s dreams...

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01-09-2013, 01:55 PM
  #707
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Im sure the Swedish Hockey federation would happily agree with this! They want nothing more than to keep Swedish talent in Sweden!!!

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01-09-2013, 02:12 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
That'd be counterproductive as elite Canadian players would not have decent competition and would stagnate.

One of the main reasons I would not go the CHL route as a young hockey player (you are free to laugh at this thought because I'm a terrible player but hypothetically) is because of the NHL-CHL agreement can result in stalled development for many players.

Two examples I can think of recently are Brett Conolly and Nino Niederreiter. Connolly dominated after his draft year was cut short by an injury. He clearly was done with junior and another year would not add anything to his development. He wasn't quite ready for the NHL either, but under the NHL-CHL agreement he had only those two options. The Lightning choose to keep him in the NHL but play him sparingly, giving him limited minutes and scratching him for several games because he simply wasn't NHL ready. The same thing happened with Niederreiter where he was clearly done with junior but not NHL ready. He spent 55 games in the NHL, got hurt and scored 1 point. Now he's in the AHL where he belongs and has a chance to improve. Under the CHL agreement he could only stagnate another year in junior or be overwhelmed in the NHL.

A little bit off topic but to bring it back if you want elite players to develop they need to play up a year against quality competition. John Tavares would have gained absolutely nothing playing in a league of 15 year olds when he was 15. At the same time he would have gained nothing playing as a 19 year old in the CHL. If you want elite Canadian players to develop they have to play against players who are better than they are, which means older since by being elite they are the best for their age group. Filling the entire league with 16-17 year old Canadian boys would just result in stagnating players across the country. The same happens if you water down the league by taking out quality talent. The fact is that some players simply aren't good enough and to hurt the ones that are just to make an exception for them would be the opposite of the goal of making the Canadian Junior Team better.
As a major junior fan, I have to agree with you. Using another Lightning example, the same thing happened with James Wright, IMO. I think he was good enough to be playing pro at 19. Played 48 games with the Lightning, totalling 2g, 3a, 5p before they sent him back down to the Vancouver Giants, but by that point playing in the WHL wasn't probably the best thing for him.

It's times like these I kind of wish the ECHL truly was more of a AA option between Major Junior and the AHL/NHL. Not trying to start an argument between the quality of play between Major Junior and the ECHL, just looking it as a possibility for those 19 year olds stuck in the middle.

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01-09-2013, 02:28 PM
  #709
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I love Don Cherry as a character (note that doesn't mean I agree with what he has to say) but this post is unfortunately short-sighted. The CHL is the best junior league in the world. Canadian kids benefit by playing against the best competition available. Anything that would decrease the quality of play in the CHL would not benefit Canadian players at all, especially the elite ones who play for Team Canada at the WJC.

I guess maybe Cherry is saying that the benefit other countries get from having their players in the CHL is greater than the benefit Canadian players get from having the chance to play with/against them. Not sure about that either way.

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01-09-2013, 03:00 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
I guess maybe Cherry is saying that the benefit other countries get from having their players in the CHL is greater than the benefit Canadian players get from having the chance to play with/against them. Not sure about that either way.
There is very little evidence of any benefit to the other countries.

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01-09-2013, 03:33 PM
  #711
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Maybe decline is a bit going overboard.But if I am interpeting your post correctly you are saying that the import auto manifacturers have facilities here and contribute to our economy.But that is exactly what Cherry is saying,that whomever has paid for the import players minor hockey career has not contributed a penny to the North American hockey economy.

Are you also saying that if the import players continue to improve ,that eventually if we (North Americans)do not improve as fast or faster of a pace than they do, that the home grown hockey player should be no more.
By this logic, Canadian kids with rich parents who pay more taxes should be picked for the league over Canadian kids with lower or middle class parents regardless of their respective talents. Because after all, the rich kid's parents have contributed far more to the Canadian economy. Why not just let the kid's parents make a big contribution to a political party or Hockey Canada and buy a spot on a team? Obviously I'm making a stretch here but it's hardly more ridiculous than Cherry's jingoistic sore loser airborne screed.

As a fan of USA Hockey I'd love to see the CHL closed off to American kids. Let them improve the leagues here, though obviously they're improving tremendously with or without the CHL. As a rational adult human being I think it's the dumbest idea I've heard all week.


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01-09-2013, 05:06 PM
  #712
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If Canada wants to blame someone for losing in the World Juniors blame the US National Development Team Program. US Hockey was a joke before the NDTP was formed in 1996 and really took by the mid-2000's. It's been a successful centralization effort to bring the best hockey players in the United States and get them training and playing together from the time they are 16. The team's main goal is to win the Under-18 World Championship in April. This has been very successful recently with the US winning that tournament four straight years and six of the last eight years. Even though the U-18's are the main emphasis, the chemistry formed has translated over to the U-20's with the US now winning 3 Golds and 2 Bronzes in the last 10 tournaments compared to 0 Golds, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze in the previous 25 tournaments.

From this year's WJC squad you had 8 players who were graduates of the 1993 USNDTP squad (Miller, Grimaldi, Bardreau, Pietila, Biggs, McCabe, Murphy, and Gibson) along with 5 graduates of the 1994 USNDTP team (Hartman, Barber, Trouba, Jones, Sieloff).

Aside from those guys you had Lucia, Vesey, Gostisbehere, Reilly, Gaudreau, and Kuraly all receive their training in the United States in US High Schools or the USHL (and all now play in the NCAA).

Vince Trocheck and Alex Galchenyuk are the only ones you would say have been primarily developed by the CHL as they left the United States when they were 16 to get their training up in Canada (Trocheck plays for an American team in Saginaw not too far from where he played AAA in Detroit as a 15 year old).

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01-09-2013, 07:37 PM
  #713
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I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian

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01-09-2013, 07:47 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian
The man is a cartoon.

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01-09-2013, 07:50 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian
You're not helping your cause.

I have strong doubts about the legitimacy of that poll. Only a country of idiots would put Don Cherry on the same level as Alexander Graham Bell, Frederick Banting, Tommy Douglas, Lester Pearson, etc.

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01-09-2013, 09:46 PM
  #716
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You're not helping your cause.

I have strong doubts about the legitimacy of that poll. Only a country of idiots would put Don Cherry on the same level as Alexander Graham Bell, Frederick Banting, Tommy Douglas, Lester Pearson, etc.
Did you notice that Gretzky is also there.It goes to show how passionate Canadians are about hockey and part of the reason I have been on here trying to explain what DC is trying to say in a more politically correct manner.

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01-10-2013, 12:17 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
If Canada wants to blame someone for losing in the World Juniors blame the US National Development Team Program. US Hockey was a joke before the NDTP was formed in 1996 and really took by the mid-2000's. It's been a successful centralization effort to bring the best hockey players in the United States and get them training and playing together from the time they are 16. The team's main goal is to win the Under-18 World Championship in April. This has been very successful recently with the US winning that tournament four straight years and six of the last eight years. Even though the U-18's are the main emphasis, the chemistry formed has translated over to the U-20's with the US now winning 3 Golds and 2 Bronzes in the last 10 tournaments compared to 0 Golds, 1 Silver, 1 Bronze in the previous 25 tournaments.

From this year's WJC squad you had 8 players who were graduates of the 1993 USNDTP squad (Miller, Grimaldi, Bardreau, Pietila, Biggs, McCabe, Murphy, and Gibson) along with 5 graduates of the 1994 USNDTP team (Hartman, Barber, Trouba, Jones, Sieloff).

Aside from those guys you had Lucia, Vesey, Gostisbehere, Reilly, Gaudreau, and Kuraly all receive their training in the United States in US High Schools or the USHL (and all now play in the NCAA).

Vince Trocheck and Alex Galchenyuk are the only ones you would say have been primarily developed by the CHL as they left the United States when they were 16 to get their training up in Canada (Trocheck plays for an American team in Saginaw not too far from where he played AAA in Detroit as a 15 year old).
Galchenyuk played a season and a half in the CHL. I wouldn't say he's primarily developed in the CHL.

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01-10-2013, 12:20 AM
  #718
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As a major junior fan, I have to agree with you. Using another Lightning example, the same thing happened with James Wright, IMO. I think he was good enough to be playing pro at 19. Played 48 games with the Lightning, totalling 2g, 3a, 5p before they sent him back down to the Vancouver Giants, but by that point playing in the WHL wasn't probably the best thing for him.

It's times like these I kind of wish the ECHL truly was more of a AA option between Major Junior and the AHL/NHL. Not trying to start an argument between the quality of play between Major Junior and the ECHL, just looking it as a possibility for those 19 year olds stuck in the middle.
Most of these 19 year olds could play at the AHL level and improve. I'm not sure even the ECHL is really needed. Guys who are close to the NHL but clearly beyond the CHL should have a way to play in the AHL early, but I understand why the CHL doesn't want to lose marquee players.

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01-10-2013, 12:32 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
In the scenario all the applicants are new graduates(including the one fromChina)with only their grades as the basis for qualification.Also,what if the applicant from China has been competing against lesser engineers than who you were ,would this not make his qualifications artificially higher than if he was competing in the same environment that you were.
A scenario that may be hard to grasp for you: what if the Chinese engineer really IS more talented than the Canadian engineer? Is that so hard to believe?

As for your examples, the same can be said for the Canadian's achievements, what if his grades made his status artificially higher because the competition of his school was so poor that he literally was in a league of his own? Or what if he had competed with lesser engineers as you alluded...it's a pointless discussion to be frank and we're nitpicking to find an excuse rather than you bringing up a defense for opportunities being available for Canadians only.

Tbh what I can't understand is why Canadians feel the need to be entitled to their own things? I mean I'm Canadian and all, but I'm not going to be all irrationally patriotic and say that "foreigners" don't deserve to play even if they have already proven themselves to be great/good/elite/etc. There's a reason why we need to be objective when assessing talent.


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01-10-2013, 05:44 AM
  #720
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).
Most of the Canadians here can come up coherent arguments to debunk Cherry's pathetic populistic rants such as this most recent one.

So why don't you get off your high horse for a moment and tell us how do you feel about all the talented Canadian youngsters who go abroad to develop in all other sports?

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01-10-2013, 05:50 AM
  #721
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian
Both you and Cherry are xenophobes who can share a bag for lunch.

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01-15-2013, 03:16 PM
  #722
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He is wrong, but he's Don Cherry, he's not necessarily trying to be right. I think of Don Cherry as kind of like the Ann Coulter of hockey in Canada: he says a lot of controversial things and half the time it's just for the sake of being controversial and not because he means them. If it were another Canadian---like Mario Lemieux or Stephen Harper---I might be a little bothered by it. But you have to consider the source.

Just to humor Mr. Cherry though, let me be the first to congratulate the CHL on their victory in the 2013 World Junior Hockey Championships!

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01-15-2013, 03:21 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian
I've only ever spoken to one Canadian in person about Don Cherry. His exact words: "Grapes is a total windbag."

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01-16-2013, 02:35 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Galchenyuk played a season and a half in the CHL. I wouldn't say he's primarily developed in the CHL.
True, he played his hockey in Russia until he was 15

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01-18-2013, 03:08 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I just wanted to come on and say how ironic it is that people who have so much anger, hate and contempt for Don Cherry do so because of the so-called hate he apparently spreads.

If we had to use a sliding scale, the amount of dislike Don has for Europeans is far, far less (I would argue none) than the amount of hate spewed forth from those who love to see the man kicked and kicked again just because he has a different point of view than you do. Some of you sound not only angry, but violently so.

I am sorry, but you are in the minority. Most Canadians (maybe not the enlightened ones on here, of course) love Don Cherry and what he stands for. Intsead of reading snippets of articles and casting gloom over every word out of his mouth without actually looking into why he says certain things, we dig deeper and try to see all sides, and respect the fact the guy just loves Canada (I know, crazy concept - one which perhaps eludes the younger generation who can't read more than a 100 character tweet).

If you feel as though I am wrong, I have statistics that speak to the contrary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian
Those who love him do so because of the buffoon in him. That's his gig - he deliberately says outrageous things that please some element of the Canadian viewing audience because it puts money in his pocket - something that his coaching or playing would never have done. He's a paid buffoon, and as long as he keeps taking it to the bank with him, it just makes good sense for him to say the things that are going to stir up the pot the most.

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