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The Out of Town Thread part XLVI All talk from around the league here

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Old
01-09-2013, 04:40 PM
  #701
Watsatheo
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Oh yeah, now the leafs get to have Seguin destroy them for years in their own division. What a winning move! Instead of Kessel they could probably have had Hall and a couple top 5 picks the next two years, brilliant.

Gauthier over Burke everyday of the week, he might not have made big moves but every step Gauthier took was one towards a brighter future, Burke is just flailing in the dark.
Gauthier could have traded 1st rounders in addition to those 2nd and 3rd rounders during his stint. Habs will definitely thank him plenty for not completely draining the team of picks in 2010 and 2011.

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01-09-2013, 04:41 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Gauthier over Burke everyday of the week, he might not have made big moves but every step Gauthier took was one towards a brighter future, Burke is just flailing in the dark.
If we take out the Kaberle and SKost trades, that's kind of true. But he never really tried anything.

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01-09-2013, 04:47 PM
  #703
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Oh yeah, now the leafs get to have Seguin destroy them for years in their own division. What a winning move! Instead of Kessel they could probably have had Hall and a couple top 5 picks the next two years, brilliant.

Gauthier over Burke everyday of the week, he might not have made big moves but every step Gauthier took was one towards a brighter future, Burke is just flailing in the dark.
Gauthier ???? What ????

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01-09-2013, 04:49 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
They would have been even worse 2 years ago and drafted RNH instead of Hamilton since they would have been lower in the standings
Don't forget the Leafs also traded Tuuka Rask. Although, that can't be blamed on Burke.

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01-09-2013, 04:49 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Gauthier could have traded 1st rounders in addition to those 2nd and 3rd rounders during his stint. Habs will definitely thank him plenty for not completely draining the team of picks in 2010 and 2011.
He could have destroyed the team or let it just limp its way to a 10th place finish, then we could all talk about who we would have picked with our 14 overall pick and watched as Toronto got Galchenyuk.

I guess I shouldn't take stuff said in here too seriously, these are the same people who WANTED Pierre Mcguire as our next GM!

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If we take out the Kaberle and SKost trades, that's kind of true. But he never really tried anything.
On this team Skost would be a third liner just like Grabovski, he didn't have a future here and I for one am more than happy to see his drama gone. Kaberle cost us a terrible Spacek and despite the ravings here is still good for 40 points with a decent partner. He is a top 4 dman no matter how many people here try to drag Gauthiers name through the mud.

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01-09-2013, 05:10 PM
  #706
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Oh yeah, now the leafs get to have Seguin destroy them for years in their own division. What a winning move! Instead of Kessel they could probably have had Hall and a couple top 5 picks the next two years, brilliant.

Gauthier over Burke everyday of the week, he might not have made big moves but every step Gauthier took was one towards a brighter future, Burke is just flailing in the dark.
I would hope given the opportunity of Burke or Gauthier the habs choose Burke. Part of that reason is it didn't work with Gauthier so you gotta try something new, the other because Burke is the better GM.

I am fairly certain Burke will have a GM job before Gauthier. I am not sure Gauthier will ever find another GM job to begin with.

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01-09-2013, 05:14 PM
  #707
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Would that be a bad thing? The Leafs have some nice pieces going forward but would you rather have their prospect pool, or Edmonton's?

As good as Kessel can be, you can't build around him the way you could around Hamilton and Seguin. Would you trade Galchenyuk and Subban for Kessel?
I said right move, wrong time. Hence, I agree they should have rebuilt...

They traded valuable assets and got Kessel, a 35-40goal first line winger. We traded valuable assets and got Scott Gomez. At least they walked out with a consolation price... We got vomited on.

That's the kind of trade that can vault a good team into contender status, Brian Burke greatly over estimated what he had back in 2009 and that was his fatal mistake. Just about all of his other moves we're ok-to-great, would you agree?

How many homeruns did Gainey hit? Balej for Kovalev and Gorges+1st for Rivet are the only two good ones, compared to a couple REAL stinkers... Niinimaa for Ribeiro and Gomez for Mcdonaugh/Higgins stand out. I'd even go as far as to say trading our first in 2008 was almost as bad for us as Toronto trading theirs was, and this is BARELY ever mentioned here. The team had a banner year, and was considered a contender but in reality it largely overachieved and instead of drafting a quality player (rumor is, John Carlson was Timmins' guy) we got 1 year of Alex Tanguay. It's not the end of the world, but we essentially lost yet another valuable asset for sweet **** all.

Gauthier had an admirable trading reputation going until he acquired Kaberle and Bourque. His trading history is very... Bland.

Burke got Phaneuf (Top 4 D), Lupul (Top 6 fwd), and Gardiner (Top 4 D, maybe Top 2D) for left over pieces.

At least Burke had the gonads to pull off trades, and aside from one... He did pretty good, IMO.

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01-09-2013, 05:20 PM
  #708
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Every GM's work from Gainey, to Gauthier, to Burke will be reevaluated in a few years where their work will be more apparent. He didn't do as much as he was suppose to, that's for sure. The Kessel trade was incredibly bad but not because it gave the Bruins 2 1st rounders....but because he was unable to put a team AROUND Kessel. Who cares if the Bruins have the Leafs 1st rounders if those picks end up being 25th for each year? Yet, Burke underestimated the power of his team if he thought that solely the Kessel move was enough.

But for everybody who keeps absolving Gainey saying that he picked up an awful team.....I guess it could be said for Burke as well. Leafs have been looking for a goalie all these years, yet they had one in Rask.

But we also have to say that Burke's love for his "truculence" is what lost him. Again, in no way should you build your team SOLELY on speed, just like you shouldn't build your team solely on truculence either. A mix is needed. Don't feel like Burke worked in that direction, just like I didn't feel Gainey nor Gauthier did either.

But a big mouth needs to deliver....he clearly didn't.

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01-09-2013, 05:36 PM
  #709
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Burke got fired, do you guys think Bergevin is next ?

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01-09-2013, 05:37 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Gauthier could have traded 1st rounders in addition to those 2nd and 3rd rounders during his stint. Habs will definitely thank him plenty for not completely draining the team of picks in 2010 and 2011.
I believe in Gauthier's entire GM career he's only traded a 1st rounder once or twice. He isn't really known to move 1st rounders.

Edit: Just checked. In 10 seasons of being a GM, Gauthier only traded a 1st round pick once.


Last edited by Andy: 01-09-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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01-09-2013, 05:46 PM
  #711
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Burke got fired, do you guys think Bergevin is next ?
No I think Gillis is next

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01-09-2013, 06:26 PM
  #712
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No I think Gillis is next
Mike Gillis? He of 199-96-33 in the regular season, 28-24 in the playoffs?

edit: nvm, didn't see the post you were replying to, I thought you were serious. Whooooops

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01-09-2013, 06:38 PM
  #713
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I would hope given the opportunity of Burke or Gauthier the habs choose Burke. Part of that reason is it didn't work with Gauthier so you gotta try something new, the other because Burke is the better GM.

I am fairly certain Burke will have a GM job before Gauthier. I am not sure Gauthier will ever find another GM job to begin with.
No kidding, Burke kinda did win a cup with Anaheim that carries a lot of weight with these golden oldies. Look what it did for Gainey, the guy rode that one cup for a long time despite utter incompetence.

Gauthier was tied to massive immovable contracts from the get go and a coach from the dead puck era, what were you expecting exactly? Even with those contracts he still turned the team in an entirely different direction dumping small players and acquiring big tough ones and finally giving the team 2 30+ goal scorers, something Gainey NEVER did. Gauthier also has acquired an elite #1 centre, something Gainey never did. Bergevin will be reaping Gauthiers rewards for years to come.

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01-09-2013, 06:39 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Mike Gillis? He of 199-96-33 in the regular season, 28-24 in the playoffs?

edit: nvm, didn't see the post you were replying to, I thought you were serious. Whooooops
Semi-serious TBH. If Gillis fails to bring back the cup for a couple more seasons which of Bergevin or him do you think will be feeling more heat?

Burke's firing was a complete surprise to me so... Maybe

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01-09-2013, 06:42 PM
  #715
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I said right move, wrong time. Hence, I agree they should have rebuilt...

They traded valuable assets and got Kessel, a 35-40goal first line winger. We traded valuable assets and got Scott Gomez. At least they walked out with a consolation price... We got vomited on.

That's the kind of trade that can vault a good team into contender status, Brian Burke greatly over estimated what he had back in 2009 and that was his fatal mistake. Just about all of his other moves we're ok-to-great, would you agree?

How many homeruns did Gainey hit? Balej for Kovalev and Gorges+1st for Rivet are the only two good ones, compared to a couple REAL stinkers... Niinimaa for Ribeiro and Gomez for Mcdonaugh/Higgins stand out. I'd even go as far as to say trading our first in 2008 was almost as bad for us as Toronto trading theirs was, and this is BARELY ever mentioned here. The team had a banner year, and was considered a contender but in reality it largely overachieved and instead of drafting a quality player (rumor is, John Carlson was Timmins' guy) we got 1 year of Alex Tanguay. It's not the end of the world, but we essentially lost yet another valuable asset for sweet **** all.

Gauthier had an admirable trading reputation going until he acquired Kaberle and Bourque. His trading history is very... Bland.

Burke got Phaneuf (Top 4 D), Lupul (Top 6 fwd), and Gardiner (Top 4 D, maybe Top 2D) for left over pieces.

At least Burke had the gonads to pull off trades, and aside from one... He did pretty good, IMO.
I think this is a wrong way of approaching this.

Who got the results? One did, one didn't at all. That's all that matters.

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01-09-2013, 06:47 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Oh yeah, now the leafs get to have Seguin destroy them for years in their own division. What a winning move! Instead of Kessel they could probably have had Hall and a couple top 5 picks the next two years, brilliant.

Gauthier over Burke everyday of the week, he might not have made big moves but every step Gauthier took was one towards a brighter future, Burke is just flailing in the dark.
Not even freaking close.

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01-09-2013, 06:54 PM
  #717
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No kidding, Burke kinda did win a cup with Anaheim that carries a lot of weight with these golden oldies. Look what it did for Gainey, the guy rode that one cup for a long time despite utter incompetence.

Gauthier was tied to massive immovable contracts from the get go and a coach from the dead puck era, what were you expecting exactly? Even with those contracts he still turned the team in an entirely different direction dumping small players and acquiring big tough ones and finally giving the team 2 30+ goal scorers, something Gainey NEVER did. Gauthier also has acquired an elite #1 centre, something Gainey never did. Bergevin will be reaping Gauthiers rewards for years to come.
I understand. Burke is not a builder. He's a finisher. Mind you, that sedin draft was excellent on his part, no denying that.

But, we were better when we weren't 'big and tough'. It's about getting good players. I take gionta's small stature and work ethic over bourque's big size and lacklustre play.

There's no denying the habs needed a better balance but I still don't see the vision. Anyone can sign or trade for bigger players. It's about building a team and I don't see him a builder either.

Gauthier acquired an elite #1 C? K, this isn't an accomplishment. It's like me saying Oilers acquired 3-4 franchise forwards. WOW. Nah, they sucked and got them. There's a difference, so lets be objective. I'm sure if Gainey sucked and got #3 overall we could have Toews or something too, so it's not really rocket science.

Also, Gauthier did not acquire 30+ goal scorer pacioretty. Pacioretty was drafted under Gainey and he was NOT a top 3 pick. Cole however was no doubt an excellent signing, we were desperately missing that sort of player.

For the most part, I don't consider Gauthier a terrible person or someone who does not know hockey. I don't consider him a good GM. He may be good at a variety of roles but his GM experience leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we will feel the same way about bergevin in due time, we'll see.

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01-09-2013, 06:59 PM
  #718
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I think this is a wrong way of approaching this.

Who got the results? One did, one didn't at all. That's all that matters.
Gainey had more time to achieve results.

How did his first five year plan end again?

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01-09-2013, 07:04 PM
  #719
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Gainey had more time to achieve results.

How did his first five year plan end again?
with injuries and a team implosion after finishing first place.

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01-09-2013, 07:07 PM
  #720
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Gauthier was not a good GM for many reasons but he wasn't a trainwreck either. When he first got fired he was being compared to Houle and that was just ridiculous. He probably won't be remembered too fondly but if anything until he lost his mind in the last season he was conservative at his job, for better and for worst. He inherited some awful decisions made by Gainey at the end (who he might have played a part in), made some bad trades, some good ones, handed out mostly reasonable contracts (guys like Cole and Markov got longer contracts than they probably should have, but it was probably necessary to get them), and didn't do anything nearly as horrible as the Kessel or Gomez trades, let alone the moves truly awful GMs make like Houle, Millbury and Howson.

Gauthier traded some mid round draft picks along the way but he did a great job stocking up for last year and this years draft, and deserves some credit for that.

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01-09-2013, 07:28 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I understand. Burke is not a builder. He's a finisher. Mind you, that sedin draft was excellent on his part, no denying that.

But, we were better when we weren't 'big and tough'. It's about getting good players. I take gionta's small stature and work ethic over bourque's big size and lacklustre play.

There's no denying the habs needed a better balance but I still don't see the vision. Anyone can sign or trade for bigger players. It's about building a team and I don't see him a builder either.

Gauthier acquired an elite #1 C? K, this isn't an accomplishment. It's like me saying Oilers acquired 3-4 franchise forwards. WOW. Nah, they sucked and got them. There's a difference, so lets be objective. I'm sure if Gainey sucked and got #3 overall we could have Toews or something too, so it's not really rocket science.

Also, Gauthier did not acquire 30+ goal scorer pacioretty. Pacioretty was drafted under Gainey and he was NOT a top 3 pick. Cole however was no doubt an excellent signing, we were desperately missing that sort of player.

For the most part, I don't consider Gauthier a terrible person or someone who does not know hockey. I don't consider him a good GM. He may be good at a variety of roles but his GM experience leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe we will feel the same way about bergevin in due time, we'll see.
We weren't better when we were represented by the Mighty Mites, our young talent was getting hammered and Pacioretty almost had his career ended. Riddled by injury and a laughing stock is not "better". Gomes, Gionta and Cammalleri are soon to be a distant awful memory and the sooner the better. For year our own players asked for help from Gainey in acquiring some toughness and it fell on senile ears, Gauthier turned that around.

Gauthier made hockey decisions that lead them directly to Galchenyuk, replacing your coach mid season with someone who has never been a head coach and a top line goal scoring winger for picks/prospects is as subtle as a hammer to the face. You can stick your head in the sand all you like and plead ignorance but I will acknowledge the plan.

Pacioretty and Desharnais success are both a direct result of acquiring Cole at a time when they needed the veteran leadership and mentoring he provided. This is also painfully obvious but completely ignored by most.

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01-09-2013, 07:32 PM
  #722
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I was hoping they would have re-upped Burkie an extension for another 4-5 yrs...

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01-09-2013, 07:37 PM
  #723
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Gauthier made hockey decisions that lead them directly to Galchenyuk, replacing your coach mid season with someone who has never been a head coach and a top line goal scoring winger for picks/prospects is as subtle as a hammer to the face. You can stick your head in the sand all you like and plead ignorance but I will acknowledge the plan.
If this was truly the case...why would he have made the Spacek for Kaberle deal? An ultimate tanking plan would have featured keeping the PP in its woeful state.

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01-09-2013, 07:42 PM
  #724
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Gauthier inherited a weak team from Bob Gainey. He did overachieve for two years with an 8th place and 6th place finish due to Jacques Martin's coaching, but the failure to resign Roman Hamrlik is what did the team in last year. The defense was absolutely horrible, and the team fell to 12th place. It then decided to tank and finished in 15th (not 12th) place after trading Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, and Gill.

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01-09-2013, 07:42 PM
  #725
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If this was truly the case...why would he have made the Spacek for Kaberle deal? An ultimate tanking plan would have featured keeping the PP in its woeful state.
At that point there was plenty of time to turn things around and the hope was kick starting the power play would do that. It was a failed attempt to replicate the Wiz trade.

After that the wheels fell off when Martin was fired, as soon as they made it clear Cunneyworth was who they were going with for the rest of the season it was clear management was already test driving the tank.

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