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Old
01-09-2013, 11:13 PM
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
In 3-4 years, I see Spezza at ~70 points (if he plays a full season; big If) with worse defensive play, and Tavares at 90-100 points. I think that's reasonable. Pretty big difference.


I'd rather have that Minny package + a top 3 pick from sucking than Spezza.
With a peaked team you only see Spezza getting 70? Really? Interesting.

Well, Spezza is one of the best centers in the league and he still has a good 6 years on him at the least. Replacing Spezza won't be easy or else every top 3 pick would have given every team a forward/center better than Spezza since 2001.

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01-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
God please stop with these terrible suggestions, its sooo bad.
I would rather have over Spezza

MacKinnon/Barkov
Granlund
Larsson
Brodin



Fine, you disagree. But ''soooo bad''? Come on. Those are very good young players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
With a peaked team you only see Spezza getting 70? Really? Interesting.

Well, Spezza is one of the best centers in the league and he still has a good 6 years on him at the least. Replacing Spezza won't be easy or else every top 3 pick would have given every team a forward/center better than Spezza since 2001.
I'm thinking he could play for 6 more years, not play at his current level for that long. Not every player plays til they're 40.

Remember, he only had 84 this season.. dropping to 70 isn't that big a drop

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01-09-2013, 11:20 PM
  #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I would rather have over Spezza

MacKinnon/Barkov
Granlund
Larsson
Brodin



Fine, you disagree. But ''soooo bad''? Come on. Those are very good young players.



I'm thinking he could play for 6 more years, not play at his current level for that long. Not every player plays til they're 40.

Remember, he only had 84 this season.. dropping to 70 isn't that big a drop
You seriously think Spezza will retire at 35?

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Old
01-09-2013, 11:25 PM
  #554
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You seriously think Spezza will retire at 35?
Like 37. yeah I could see it.

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Old
01-09-2013, 11:34 PM
  #555
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Mandy, have you considered that we don't need a 'the guy' up front if Cowen, Karlsson, and Lehner all develop into studs on the backend?

Offense can be generated via secondary scoring. We've got plenty of secondary scorer prospects in the system. Is it a concern if Spezza starts declining? Definitely. But he's still one of the top Cs in the game, and if Turris can find his offensive ceiling at the right time, we can very easily have an above-average 1-2-3 punch down the middle. Trade for or sign one big name FA forward, and you've suddenly got a good looking forward corps with a great blueline and great goaltending.

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01-09-2013, 11:36 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I'm thinking he could play for 6 more years, not play at his current level for that long. Not every player plays til they're 40.

Remember, he only had 84 this season.. dropping to 70 isn't that big a drop
I never said 40. I went conservative and said 35.

Yea, he did have 84, but that was 4th in league scoring... He was 13 points away from 2nd. He did this with only one offensive threat to help him.

You said if Ottawa peaks. That means Silfverberg and whatnot play very strong hockey which I agree with you is very possible and should be the outcome then. Spezza with that much more help would only improve, even if he does decline, the stronger help would at least cancel out.

70 points isn't that big of a drop, but I would agree if Ottawa stayed at their level of play not when they are peaking. You are severely underestimating Spezza's game, wow.

We go from supposedly being the worst team in the league to having a player in the top 4 in scoring yet he will decline soon even though some players hit their best games at the age he is entering AND he'll be playing for a stacked team.

I'm not really arguing in a sense that you're argument and logic are severely flawed in itself.

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01-09-2013, 11:46 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Mandy, have you considered that we don't need a 'the guy' up front if Cowen, Karlsson, and Lehner all develop into studs on the backend?

Offense can be generated via secondary scoring. We've got plenty of secondary scorer prospects in the system. Is it a concern if Spezza starts declining? Definitely. But he's still one of the top Cs in the game, and if Turris can find his offensive ceiling at the right time, we can very easily have an above-average 1-2-3 punch down the middle. Trade for or sign one big name FA forward, and you've suddenly got a good looking forward corps with a great blueline and great goaltending.
true. Which is why I certainly don't think the team is doomed if Spezza stays.



I just think it would be better. That lineup I posted... don't you guys think it's guaranteed to get a top 3 pick? MacKinnon or Barkov or whoever would just be great.

Top 3 pick + that Wild package... putting aside your attachment to Spezza, don't you guys think it would be better for the team?

This season is perfect to tank... Foligno + Kuba > Latendresse + Methot. Cowen is gone. Short season. Perfect timing for one last tank job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I never said 40. I went conservative and said 35.

Yea, he did have 84, but that was 4th in league scoring... He was 13 points away from 2nd. He did this with only one offensive threat to help him.

You said if Ottawa peaks. That means Silfverberg and whatnot play very strong hockey which I agree with you is very possible and should be the outcome then. Spezza with that much more help would only improve, even if he does decline, the stronger help would at least cancel out.

70 points isn't that big of a drop, but I would agree if Ottawa stayed at their level of play not when they are peaking. You are severely underestimating Spezza's game, wow.

We go from supposedly being the worst team in the league to having a player in the top 4 in scoring yet he will decline soon even though some players hit their best games at the age he is entering AND he'll be playing for a stacked team.

I'm not really arguing in a sense that you're argument and logic are severely flawed in itself.
Spezza was GREAT last season. Getting older or not, it's possible he never repeats that performance. So inconsistent.

He played like a top 5 centre in the world. Well, he's not. Him hitting 30 now, he's gonna be going down, not up.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:06 AM
  #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
?

I don't think trading Spezza for Tavares give NYI the Cup... In fact that would be praising Spezza, and most would consider what I'm doing to be bashing him.



Anyway... Spezza looks to be The Guy caliber right now (don't really know without extended playoff run).

BUT, he has been inconsistent throughout his career, has had injuries, who knows how his back will hold up.

He won't be finishing 4th in scoring in 3-4 years. IMO. There will be quite a few centres better than him by then.



Spezza > Tavares now, but the difference isn't very big, and age more than makes up for it. AINEC.
Like really? Spezza is inconsistent? He is over a ppg on his CAREER! He is 6th among all active players.

Here are the active top 10 in points per game:

1. Sidney Crosby 1.403
2. Evgeni Malkin 1.234
3. Jaromir Jagr 1.228
4. Alex Ovechkin 1.228
5. Teemu Selanne 1.048
6. Jason Spezza 1.016
7. Ilya Kovalchuk 1.008
8. Joe Thornton 1.001
9. Dany Heatley 0.988
10. Pavel Datsyuk 0.981

We don't really know about Spezza being "The Guy" without an extended playoff run? Where you been? We went to the finals! He tied for the Lead in points and led the playoffs in assists. He has always been a great playoff performer. Spezza is a "The Guy" player by any way you want to use the term. He is basically a guarantee of about a point per game or more every season. He needs to find a way not to miss 10-20 games in many seasons... aside from that he is tremendously consistent. One of the most consistently great forwards in the NHL.

And he is 29 years old coming off his best all around season and one of his most productive ones. Why are we worried about his production in 3 or 4 years? There is no reason to think it won't be very good? He isn't 34.

Just as an aside... If Spezza had been a UFA and wanted to max out his $$$ He gets more money than Parise or Suter did. If he wanted it he gets any contract he wants as the top UFA in that class.

Like seriously... he isn't Crosby or Malkin. He isn't Gretzky or Mario. What exactly do you expect Spezza to do to be the man? Does he need to win the Hart trophy to be the man? I don't think a lot of GMs would take Henrik Sedin over Spezza at centre.

He produces at a point per game with guys like Greening and even Regin and Condra on his line. Through superstars like Heatley or Alfie with him and he produces at more then a 100 point pace.

I wouldn't worry about him declining a ton for 5 or 6 years.

Like seriously what do you expect from Spezza? For his career so far... really his resume reads not to far off that of St. Louis, Alfredsson, Kovalchuk, Thornton, Datsyuk, Sundin. If he can put some health together until he is 35, 36, 37 he probably has a better than average shot at the Hall of Fame. Especially with Karlsson on our team.

What is it about Spezza? Do you have any idea how good he is? Top 6 in the NHL in ppg... FOUR TIMES. He has a season with more assists then games played! Do you realize how rare it is to have done that? It is rare like a 60 goal season for a playmaker to do that.

He just finished 4th in the scoring race, 6th in Hart voting LAST SEASON. What do we want from him? He was 2nd overall in the draft for a reason... and one of the best 2nd overall picks ever. He is freakishly talented and continually developing his overall game. He is a leader on the team. Watch him on the bench and on the ice talking with his teammates.

I guess if you definition of being "The Man" is to be prime Bobby Clarke or Bryan Trottier or Mark Messier. Or to be Malkin or Crosby then maybe Spezza has not been "The Man" and he might never be. If you definition of being the man is to still nearly get a ppg even in injury ridden seasons with terrible linemates and when healthy get a decent amount of Hart votes, be an eltie playmaker in the league while actually scoring 30+ goals himself... (something Thornton and Sedin can not do.

What are you expectations man?

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01-10-2013, 12:33 AM
  #559
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Welp, the "Spezza for Granlund/Brodin+" thread on the trade boards got shut down and locked pretty quickly...

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:45 AM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
true. Which is why I certainly don't think the team is doomed if Spezza stays.



I just think it would be better. That lineup I posted... don't you guys think it's guaranteed to get a top 3 pick? MacKinnon or Barkov or whoever would just be great.

Top 3 pick + that Wild package... putting aside your attachment to Spezza, don't you guys think it would be better for the team?

This season is perfect to tank... Foligno + Kuba > Latendresse + Methot. Cowen is gone. Short season. Perfect timing for one last tank job.



Spezza was GREAT last season. Getting older or not, it's possible he never repeats that performance. So inconsistent.

He played like a top 5 centre in the world. Well, he's not. Him hitting 30 now, he's gonna be going down, not up.
So your logic is we trade one of our two best players in the hopes we stink and get to draft in the top 3. This season is a perfect season to tank?

I look at the 48 game season... and I am sure the Murray's do... as a perfect season to play well at least and make the playoffs and develop some young players and maybe catch lightning in a bottle and go really deep in the playoffs.

Like do you actually think teams try to tank? This misconception that the Oilers or the Penguins tried to tank is hilarious. The Pens sucked because they had no money. They consistently tried to get better... signing UFAs like Gonchar and still sucked for another year. The Oiler's sign Khabibulin not to suck... they got Ryan Smyth so they could compete for the playoffs.

Teams rarely ever TRY TO TANK or Plan to. They are like us... when we dealt Fisher, Kelly etc. They realize they have too much money and ice time tied up in veteran players they can't win with and trade them to try to get some good futures and retool and hopefully be better the next year or the year after.

The idea of a team like the Senators coming off a very good season... where they massively improved, made the playoffs... fought really hard in the playoffs.. have probably a better roster this year overall despite being weak on defence... would trade their best player and other players to try to draft early is so asinine that it is just almost unbelievable. That anyone would think that was a SMART idea to improve the team long term is nuts.

Teams suck and draft super early because they suck... they have injuries... they lack talent, they make poor decisions. No NHL GM is sitting around thinking about Tanking. NONE. GMs, coaches, players have PRIDE. And they try to win. Do you know how you get better at winning? By winning. The Red Wings consistently stay good even as they keep losing stars to age because they have a winning mentality. The entire team learns to win. From the stars to role players. They lost Lidstrom and Stuart and Holmstrom and they will be weaker but I would not bet against them making the playoffs.

Any team that would try to make themselves worse before the season starts is a loser franchise... no players will want to go there and the players will learn how to lose. Let's go through the "tanking" teams... Oilers... constantly tried to improve each season and just failed to be able to do so... had the money and spent it too... they just could not find the way to win. Penguins... were going bankrupt... had to trade Jagr for nothing essentially because he made so much money. As soon as they had the ability to spend... they did and signed Gonchar and stuff but still sucked for another year. Chicago had a horrible Owner that blocked local TV and figured out he could make a decent profit with a crappy weak team with a low payroll. Owner dies.. son takes over and they bring in a winning philiosophy... With Wirtz sr. Chicago never wins a Cup even with their high picks.

The idea of trading Spezza now for even blue chip prospects and possible top 3 picks is monumentally stupid. Spezza is what you want from a top 3 pick. None of the top 3 picks may EVER be as good as Spezza will be for the next 5 years... they may be or might not be. You pick even first overall and you hope you get a player as good as Spezza has become and still is.

We basically have accomplished the PERFECT rebuild. We went from near max cap to the near bottom of the cap range... made the playoffs... went from having a terrible prospect pool to an exceptional one and managed to make the playoffs in the process and look to have a very good chance of doing the same this season. It is quite frankly near perfection... we don't have a SINGLE bad contract on the roster. We have some vets with expiring contracts. We kept the HEART and CORE of the very good teams we had with Spezza, Alfredsson, Neil, Phillips. We even selectively targetted Karlsson and moved up in the draft to specifially select him and now he is one of the top players in the entire world. It is a retool, rebuild that is next to none. And no luck was involved... we did not win a lottery to get Crosby... or luck into anything. We made shrewd moves... got quality vets with leadership and good abilities. Did not trade prospects before they could develop... like Greening for example. We did EVERYTHING right. Like almost anything. The Murray's are going at this PERFECTLY. We are in a cap environment and we have endless money to improve the team when the ideal options come available.. we don't need to grasp at straws...

Even if we don't happen to make the playoffs this season I don't see how we can not be close to it unless we have catastrophic injuries... And I see us with a chance at the Cup. At least a chance. If everything goes well..... we have tons of futures to trade at the deadline to improve weaknesses to the team. We are not really in win this season mode but you need to be ready to strike if we have lightning in a bottle and we are in a position to do that.

The idea of throwing away this progress by trading away Spezza is beyond stupidity. Do you know how long teams wait to get a true #1 centre? about as long as we waited to get a true #1 goalie. If you have one you don't get rid of him... you may not get another for a decade.

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01-10-2013, 12:46 AM
  #561
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Welp, the "Spezza for Granlund/Brodin+" thread on the trade boards got shut down and locked pretty quickly...
because spezza wasnt enough or because grandlund/brodin wernt enough?

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01-10-2013, 12:53 AM
  #562
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because spezza wasnt enough or because grandlund/brodin wernt enough?
Both. You know how Trade Board threads usually go.

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01-10-2013, 12:57 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
because spezza wasnt enough or because grandlund/brodin wernt enough?
It was Minny fans vs MAK, MAK insisting what the Wilds needed, and their fans saying otherwise. They are also quite fond of Latendresse and were sad to see him go, so that's good news.

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01-10-2013, 01:03 AM
  #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
If you have one you don't get rid of him... you may not get another for a decade.
Agree with everything you said. It's like Family Guys' mystery box rolled in with EA NHL games trades in one. Though it will be sad to see Spezza become a 60-70 point player by 2020 unfortunately, like Alfie now at 40 : (.

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01-10-2013, 01:30 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

Remember, he only had 84 this season.. dropping to 70 isn't that big a drop
Yup ONLY 84 points. ONLY 4th in the NHL.

Ageism is funny. Alfredsson is OLD. He is not as good as he was at his peak (a sustained prime and peak he started when he was older than Spezza is now!)

But hey I look at the playoffs... I look at game changing abilities. Even this year's Alfie will be able to take over some games. Will be the best player on either team in some games... will have astounding shifts. Will be a game breaker.

Alfie won't be the Game-breaker he was in 2003 or 2007... but he will win games for us and do things no one else could do. Months or weeks at a time.. but for a game or a period or a shift... he can and will be a true difference maker. Because he is a HHOFer... and an elite superstar player.

Do you know who declines the slowest? Superstar, extremely talented players. They age the best. Want to gauge the historical staying power of players? The best ones play the longest careers and are the best players at 34,35,36,37,38,39,40,40+. Sure they decline. But they decline less and play longer.

Why are Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson still playing and actually very, very good?

A player of Spezza's pedigree, performance and ability is FAR less likely to decline in a huge way at a young age then lesser talents. There is little reason to expect a swift decline by Spezza... or to not expect him to be a very good player at 34, 35, 36. He is 29. As long as he can be healthy he will be good. Alfie had some injuries early and later in his career bit he was pretty darn good last year at an old age. If Spezza was committed to it I could see him playing effectively till he is almost 40. He is that talented and smart on the ice.

The fact Spezza seems to be constantly improving his overall game on both ends of the ice is a great sign. 29 and maybe his best overall year despite tremendous point production earlier on the Pizza line... that he can be at his best last season is a tremendous sign.

Like how insane is it to think that we should move on from a 29 year old superstar who may be coming off his best season?

St. Louis, Iginla are older and still exceptional. Talent dies slower then a normally skilled player.

Really Joe Thornton might be the most comparable player to Spezza and he is 34 and his last 5 seasons have been pretty decent. Not peak Thornton from the 3 years before the last 5 years, but still around a PPG and an elite 1st line centre. If that is Spezza the next 5 years then that is pretty great.

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01-10-2013, 02:22 AM
  #566
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Sens Rule Rules !

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01-10-2013, 03:06 AM
  #567
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Not to mention, you need elite experienced players to help develop the elite talent.

There are lots of "rebuilding" teams out there that don't get the most out of the talent because there is no one around to mentor it along.

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01-10-2013, 04:31 AM
  #568
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Not to mention, you need elite experienced players to help develop the elite talent.

There are lots of "rebuilding" teams out there that don't get the most out of the talent because there is no one around to mentor it along.
Yup. Alfredsson, Spezza, Neil, Gonchar, Phillips. Core vets that are all leaders in their own way and work hard. Murray got rid of some vets and some not some vets. I have little doubt Kelly and Fisher could have been also a part of this veteran leadership... but they had to be dealt. The remaining vets are winners... a core of great players that know how to win and work hard. Neil and Alfredsson are like a clinic of effort on the ice... all the time. Gonchar has a Cup and lots of experience. Phillips is a wholesome family guy. Spezza is a spirit lifting vocal on the bench fun yet serious guy. This is veteran leadership. All the younger guys can not help but completely respect all these players and follow their lead.

I don't know if Sens fans realize how carefully and well the Murray's have done this. All the vets are hardcore respectable. All the partiers are gone. I think the biggest credit is keeping Neil... Neil could have been dealt. Neil is like the heart of the team. Neil is far more valuable than anyone could suspect. Keeping him through the purge of the team was so wise.

I have to be honest... I am a bit in awe of the Murray's... for like 3 seasons they make incredible moves again and again. In foresight and hindsight. I thought Phillips got a bit tooo much money his last contract... now... so glad.

Basically I think two guys help the most to dictate the effort level of the Sens. Alfie and Neil. I think every single player watches those two on the ice and sees how to compete. Which is 100%. Every moment of each shift.

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01-10-2013, 05:18 AM
  #569
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I think back to my statement "Neil should be written in on the 4th line in permanent ink" from over 10 years ago and marvel at how he's developed as a player and a person.

That and my skepticism regarding Karlsson's pace of development are probably two of my more glaring misconceptions on HF.

I would qualify your statement about Neil to state that he seems to have a terrific sense of when he has to step up in a game. Games where the offensive corps just aren't getting it done, so he gets a dirty goal or delivers some big hits or a fight to turn things around.

Some games, he plays it pretty steady, other games, he comes up big and becomes a gamebreaker, his work ethic relentless.

I've seen elements of this in Zack Smith, I'm hoping he has the stamina (re: Condra) to maintain it over an entire season.

He'll learn from Neil that you can't go gangbusters every game.

My worry about Neil is that he'll have to fight heavyweights again with Carkner gone, but that should be a bit of a measured concern because Carkner didn't play all that many games over the regular season last year.

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01-10-2013, 08:16 AM
  #570
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I will be the first one to admit that I wanted to trade Spezza 2 years ago(based on getting a great return of course) and so far I was wrong, Karlsson is the big reason not to trade Spezza and I don't think anyone could have predicted how well he has developed. Only time will tell when we look back in 4-5 years from now if it was the right decision, but so far it looks good.

That being said IMO the time to talk about trading Spezza is over, for now, in another year and a half we will start the talk about resigning him. I don't evan want to think of losing Spezza for nothing.

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01-10-2013, 08:56 AM
  #571
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spezza has consistently improved over the past few years. he could still be on the upswing, who knows? three or four seasons ago he was a very dangerous play-maker, and not much else. now he is great in the circle, has gone from bad to okay to good to solid defensively, and just last season adjusted to not having an elite sniper on his line by starting to use his deadly shot. oh yeah, his skating has consistently improved. no need to trade him due to decline, in my opinion.

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01-10-2013, 10:02 AM
  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Jason Spezza for Mikael Granlund, Johan Larsson and Jonas Brodin

Sergei Gonchar and Guillaume Latendresse for Olli Maatta and Ben Lovejoy

Ben Bishop for NYI 3rd in 2013

...
lol wtf? Is it a troll post?

When do you want to make those trades? Right now? So you're giving up on the season just after a lockout?

That top-6 is horrible, no proven player outside of a 40 y/o guy. The defense is even worse than right now

And why would Minnesota do that? They are rebuilding as much as the Sens, if not even more

The Pens maybe, but it's help NOW that we need and Maatta just got drafted

Extend Bishop for 3 years before trading him, you'll get a better pick

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Spezza finished 4th because of Karlsson.


Spezza, like any other star player in the league, proved before Karlsson even existed, that he can produce if he plays with other skilled players...

You're basically saying that Karlsson made Spezza... please stop you're just being ridiculous

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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
Karlsson is also the reason why Spezza was PPG center for the other 500 career games or was that only because of Heatly?

Skill players put up good numbers when paired up with skilled players, wow what a shocker. news at 11 followed by weather.
Ya really... He's just trolling IMO, can't be serious

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I'd rather have that Minny package + a top 3 pick from sucking than Spezza.
And those are the desires of a teenage fan, it has nothing to do with reality simply because :

- Teams don't tank (only exists in some fans delusional minds). They play to win so there's absolutely 0 chance that the Sens trade Spezza unless they could improve the team in both short and long term
- Minnesota has no reason to do this
- Do you really think the Sens are going to say to their fans, after ANOTHER lockout :

"Thanks for being patient during the lockout, we are sorry. However, we will need even more patience from you now. We have traded our franchise Center for great prospects!"

Of course, it's fun to make those moves in fantasy land but the Sens are fine in reality, just need some of their prospects to hit their potential

Lehner-Bishop-Anderson
Karlsson-Cowen-Ceci-Wiercioch-Wikstrand (+ Borowiecki, Claesson, Sdao, Blood...)
Spezza-Turris-Michalek-Silfverberg-Zibanejad (+ Latendresse?, Regin?, Noesen, Puempel, Stone, Da Costa, Petersson, Prince, Hoffman, Grant, Pageau...)

So much potential already (the 2 older guys are Spezza and Anderson)

Lehner, Karlsson, Cowen, Spezza, Turris, Silfverberg are/are going to be stars... Can't have a team of only stars in the real world... not under the cap and even if there was no cap, not in a small market

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Spezza was GREAT last season. Getting older or not, it's possible he never repeats that performance. So inconsistent.
Dude... the more I read you, the more I think you started following NHL hockey seriously 2 or 3 years ago MAX. It's ok, you're young but stop talking in absolutes (like taking your opinion as facts).


Last edited by Xspyrit: 01-10-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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Old
01-10-2013, 10:20 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
true. Which is why I certainly don't think the team is doomed if Spezza stays.



I just think it would be better. That lineup I posted... don't you guys think it's guaranteed to get a top 3 pick? MacKinnon or Barkov or whoever would just be great.

Top 3 pick + that Wild package... putting aside your attachment to Spezza, don't you guys think it would be better for the team?

This season is perfect to tank... Foligno + Kuba > Latendresse + Methot. Cowen is gone. Short season. Perfect timing for one last tank job.



Spezza was GREAT last season. Getting older or not, it's possible he never repeats that performance. So inconsistent.

He played like a top 5 centre in the world. Well, he's not. Him hitting 30 now, he's gonna be going down, not up.
Just like Columbus was guaranteed to get Yakupov?

Ottawa has great goaltending, #1 d-man, some solid veterans and(arguably) the best young talent in the NHL. Expecting them to finish low enough to get an instant top line player is foolish, at best. They could develop chemistry and finish 5th-6th in conference, really.

Thats discounting the fact Minnesota already has enough large contracts on their team.

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01-10-2013, 12:40 PM
  #574
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I think back to my statement "Neil should be written in on the 4th line in permanent ink" from over 10 years ago and marvel at how he's developed as a player and a person.

That and my skepticism regarding Karlsson's pace of development are probably two of my more glaring misconceptions on HF.

I would qualify your statement about Neil to state that he seems to have a terrific sense of when he has to step up in a game. Games where the offensive corps just aren't getting it done, so he gets a dirty goal or delivers some big hits or a fight to turn things around.

Some games, he plays it pretty steady, other games, he comes up big and becomes a gamebreaker, his work ethic relentless.

I've seen elements of this in Zack Smith, I'm hoping he has the stamina (re: Condra) to maintain it over an entire season.

He'll learn from Neil that you can't go gangbusters every game.

My worry about Neil is that he'll have to fight heavyweights again with Carkner gone, but that should be a bit of a measured concern because Carkner didn't play all that many games over the regular season last year.
I really realized how effective Carkner and moreso Neil were as fighters having Konopka. Konopka would just fight whenever... whoever. He often hurt the team. I was not a fan.. but he did come up huge in the playoffs so I will keep Konopka in fine historical Sens memories.

But Neil... especially... totally knows when to pick his spots. He gets in a fight or plays a massive shift hitting everything that moves at EXACTLY the right times. He picks up the team. He never takes a stupid fight. EVER. Every fight is carefully timed to pick up the Senators.. change momentum. Konopka would fight when it was the other teams time to change the momentum!!!! Plus Neil can actually play and has skill.

I like you talking about Zack Smith... I saw a HUGE change in him not taking nearly as many dumb penalties last year and being so much smarter. I think and hope he continues to learn from Neil. Neil is like a top echlon pest, a top echlon hitter and a top echlon fighter. And he can score a dozen goals too. Even play on the PP in front of the net at times.

I LOVE Maclean. Neil is totally his type of guy. I wish I could remember Maclean's playing days because I assume and imagine he played the game in a similar way... with some more goal scoring accumen.

I won't mind if they keep Neil around forever... even after a decline. He is soooo smart about what he does.... even as an eventual 4 minutes a game guy in a half dozen years he will be so effective in the small spots he gets. I KNOW it!

Neil, I always liked... but in the last little while I get it. I get it... how unreplaceable and unique he is. How much he is the heart of the team. When Alfie goes... he won't be the Captain... but he will be THE HEART of this team. As great as the other leaders are.... they are not Neil. He is like a pyscholigical genius. He can read the emotion and momentum of a game like no one else.

He is no superstar.... no star even... but I predict and think we should and will retire his number when he is done here. Like Daneyko in New Jersey. You don't need to be a superstar to get your number retired.... you bleed for the team and play your important role perfectly... for 15+ years.... you get your number retired.

Neil is unreplaceable. He is so valuable and unique just for his mere presence. He has helped the team win more games then it is possible to imagine a 10 goal 20 point player could be responsible for. In hindsight... while Kelly and Fisher were better players... and key members and relentless members of this franchise. I know why it was Neil that stayed. It is funny that on HFboards so much salary crap was debated for these three players.... it is clear to me that all 3 were worth at the time and now every cent they got. Kelly, Fisher, Neil... 3 amazing characters that help a team win. We kept Neil. We kept the most important member of the trio for this rebuild. The sad but necessary purging of the core of this winning franchise... we lost Kelly and Fisher. But no way we lose Neil.

Anyway... I am just repeating myself. You look at the ALL-TIME fighting greats... the enforcers... the fighters... ALL-Time.... Neil looks favourably on most in value to a team. He is a light heavyweight... but he has fought most everyone at some time or another. And he usually wins... and even in draws... he comes out lifting his arms to the crowd and appears to win to the fans and his teammates. Even when he loses it seems to lift his team. In rating the overall usefulness of guys that fight a lot all-time he is up there. He is or has become one of the best fighters ever to pick his spots for the most ultimate value. To pick his roughing penalties for their most ultimate pest and intimidation value. I mean he is an ultimate pest and a fighter and he NEVER has even been suspended once. Despite some questionable hits... he manages to not EVER get suspended.

He is the ACTIVE penalty minute leader in the NHL 1861 minutes. #1! PIMs often hurt a team.... we measure tough guys in PIMs though. Many PIMs are earned coincidentally though and don't result in PPs against. I will venture to say with Neil... since he became a vet for many, many seasons.... virtually none of those PIMs hurt our team. None were reckless or selfish or spent in frustration or anger.... every one was purposeful... and even planned. Neil is mercrucial. He is a master of pyschology in hockey. Every act he commits is for the point... the longer point of it. And some tough guys have this effect... Neil is a MASTER of it... A pest.. and an enforcer... I have gradually come to realize that Neil is like the master of this play. A near all-time master. One of the best at this EVER in the history of hockey. Not the best fighter or the best enforcer... but one of the best EVER.... like EVER at this game of perfectly controlled and managed aggression and even violence. Neil can FEEL the momentum of a game. a period, a shift and act to push it in his teams favour... on a continuous basis... for years and years. And he has some skill and can play.

And repeating myself again... Maclean.. just gets it... he totally understands Neil... like COMPLETELY gets him. Even as Neil's abilities decline he now has a coach able to maximize him and totally get him. I think a lot of it just comes natural. I don't think Neil is sitting there on the bench planning it.. he might a bit.. but he FEELS it. Maclean gets him sooooo much. We are so fortunate to have this weapon of mass pyscological impact... who gets to play 8-12 minutes a night.

I finally get the immense value of Chris Neil. Not that I did not like him before but now it is clear to me he is a HUGE factor for this franchise. HUGE.

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Old
01-10-2013, 01:59 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
He is no superstar.... no star even... but I predict and think we should and will retire his number when he is done here. Like Daneyko in New Jersey. You don't need to be a superstar to get your number retired.... you bleed for the team and play your important role perfectly... for 15+ years.... you get your number retired.
I thought I was the only person that thought this way.



Let's hope Neil can mentor Smith into Neil 2.0

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