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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Everything Canada (goaltending, coaching, future)

View Poll Results: ....
Yes 83 55.70%
No 41 27.52%
Maybe/Depends on the situation 25 16.78%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-07-2013, 02:15 PM
  #726
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I wouldn't take McCabe over Hamilton. But then, you're comparing Canada's top Defenseman (granted he had a bad tournament but he still showed the skills offensively and defensively necessary to be a good NHL DMan) with the USA's third. I would take Seth Jones over Hamilton though. And a case could easily be made for Trouba. For some reason that seems ludicrous to people even though Trouba was drafted at the exact same spot as Hamilton and has been great at Michigan.. Some people are blinded by OHL pride however.

Back to McCabe, I would say at the present he is better than Rielly and Reinhart which is my point. Those guys might be better longterm.. after all, they are a year younger than McCabe. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rielly have a great tournament next year like Subban and Pietrangelo did after subpar 18 year old showings. Reinhart too if he's there (which might be tough since he'll be suspended the first three games).
I'd take Trouba or Jones over Hamilton for my NHL team too. Not sure at what threshold McCabe fails to make my Team Canada, but Rielly and Reinhart are still better prospects, though. Better players? Not this tournament, at least. My argument stands... not sure it's controversial to say that only 1 or 2 Team USA defenseman (or extend it to 5 or 6 total players) would have made my Team Canada a month ago. And everybody and his dog would cheerfully swap the whole team today.

Presumably Reinhart's suspension will mostly be covered off in pre-tournament exhibition matches, at least 2 games out of the 3, so it probably doesn't keep him off the team.

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Old
01-07-2013, 02:38 PM
  #727
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I think with better coaching there aren't many roster changes that would have been necessary. The mishandling of Mackinnon is just one example of how much this team was sabotaged by its inept brain trust.

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01-07-2013, 02:41 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'd take Trouba or Jones over Hamilton for my NHL team too. Not sure at what threshold McCabe fails to make my Team Canada, but Rielly and Reinhart are still better prospects, though. Better players? Not this tournament, at least. My argument stands... not sure it's controversial to say that only 1 or 2 Team USA defenseman (or extend it to 5 or 6 total players) would have made my Team Canada a month ago. And everybody and his dog would cheerfully swap the whole team today.

Presumably Reinhart's suspension will mostly be covered off in pre-tournament exhibition matches, at least 2 games out of the 3, so it probably doesn't keep him off the team.
I think we might be off the same page a bit. I'm talking more about a scenario where if there was a game tomorrow and "Team North America" had to select 7 junior-aged Defenseman I think about 4 would be from the United States. I do not really know what would have happened before the tournament. Perhaps only Jones and Trouba make it. However, it's not like the other USA Defensemen came from nowhere. This was not some scrub group that played better than anyone could have imagined. Coming in, everyone was saying that the USA's main strength was with their blue line.

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01-07-2013, 04:25 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
How about Justin Pogge?

Rate all NA Junior-aged Defenseman for me. The Canadian Defense was awful in 4 out of 6 games (Germany, Slovakia, USA semifinal, Russia bronze medal game). Try to explain it away with random variance all you want. Others see that 2012 was called a weak draft all year and it was reflected by a lot of the Canadian players on D.
Right, and Justin Pogge.

Those four games are the cornerstone of their careers. If you have a bad game in those games then you might as well quit on the NHL. It's kind of funny that you wrote US semifinal and russia bronze medal game.

Why don't you just say USA and Russia? Is that because you want to ignore the games where Team Canada beat this amazingly highly rated defence of yours? What happened to that weak draft year for Canadian d in those games? Let me guess, random variance?

What should be said is that most of the US defencemen played better for Team usa than the Canadian defence did for Team Canada. It doesn't inevitably change the whole order of the better prospector the better player. Only the better performance.


Last edited by Atomos2: 01-07-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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01-07-2013, 04:32 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Right. Those four games are the cornerstone of their careers. If you have a bad game in those games then you might as well quit on the NHL. It's kind of funny that you wrote US semifinal and russia bronze medal game.

Why don't you just say USA and Russia? Is that because you want to ignore the games where Team Canada beat this amazingly highly rated defence of yours? What happened to that weak draft year for Canadian d in those games? Let me guess, random variance?
I think you're taking this a bit too far. Canada's Defensemen are not bad players. I'm sure many of them will go on to have long successful NHL careers. They are all still fine prospects.

They were pretty bad against Germany and Slovakia. Germany's 3 goals against Canada contrast with the 0 goals they scored against the United States, Russia, and Finland and the one goal they scored against Slovakia. Canada fell behind early against Slovakia and was really awful the first half of that game.

Canada had a few good games against US and Russia that is true. They have some good players. I don't think every Team USA Defenseman is better than every Team Canada one. Yet if I think more than the top one or two Americans is as good as the Canadian group right now I'm being unreasonable

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01-07-2013, 04:36 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I think you're taking this a bit too far. Canada's Defensemen are not bad players. I'm sure many of them will go on to have long successful NHL careers. They are all still fine prospects.

They were pretty bad against Germany and Slovakia. Germany's 3 goals against Canada contrast with the 0 goals they scored against the United States, Russia, and Finland and the one goal they scored against Slovakia. Canada fell behind early against Slovakia and was really awful the first half of that game.

Canada had a few good games against US and Russia that is true. They have some good players. I don't think every Team USA Defenseman is better than every Team Canada one. Yet if I think more than the top one or two Americans is as good as the Canadian group right now I'm being unreasonable
Makes sense. I respect that decision.

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01-08-2013, 04:33 AM
  #732
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Unless Canada wins then all of us Canadians are bragging and chest thumping, correct?


In this "6-7" tourny when the games were big Canada lost. Fair and square.
Thats exactly what I meant... All this 6-7 game tourny shows is which teams want it more and which teams actually show up. Canada beat Sweden in the only game they played, but Sweden is some how the better team?

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01-08-2013, 08:58 AM
  #733
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Thats exactly what I meant... All this 6-7 game tourny shows is which teams want it more and which teams actually show up. Canada beat Sweden in the only game they played, but Sweden is some how the better team?
Canada didn't play Sweden :S

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01-08-2013, 09:15 AM
  #734
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Canada didn't play Sweden :S

pre-game.

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Old
01-09-2013, 05:59 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, Spott was coaching the challenge teams with Russia this summer, against something approaching half the pool of candidate players in the OHL, there's the Subway series flybys, and the camp process is pretty intense in Canada... I don't think player selection or any blind spots in awareness of the candidates are really an issue. In-game utilizations maybe, all the usual real-time coaching stuff like tactics, motivation, etc. We can't really know that, and one coach to the next, who knows how much they will get out of their guys on a given night or how much they'll impact the game outcome. It matters, but is so hard for us to judge.

Much is made of the Spott/Murphy connection, but in the end, Murphy is still just 1 player, not a key one, and while he has not performed well for Canada, I wouldn't say he is alone on the blueline for having played below a Team Canada standard... or that there were 100% certainly better players overlooked who would have made any difference. If Dumba or Corrado were there instead, Canada still loses that game to the USA IMHO. I don't see any glaring issues with his other player utilizations or icetime allotments or line combinations. He got most of it right, as far as I could guess. For any nitpicks about not moving MacKinnon up, and who knows how that would have worked anyway, he got it right by moving Drouin up, etc.

I just don't know what you'd do differently about the whole Team Canada process as a result of just a single game loss to the USA. Team USA was better. It was a 1-game elimination, and that's hockey. I'd personally leave it at that. You could consider last year's loss too, and then maybe question the process on a bigger scale, but I'm really not sure how you arrive at a different conclusion even then. USA, Sweden, Russia, are good teams. Yes, they can beat Canada on any given night. No need to get
surprised or overly reactive about that.
I would think losing to the US and Russia in medal round games is crushing the Canadian hockey psyche. If had just been the loss to US followed by a win over Russia it wouldn't have been an issue.
However you went 2-2 against the US and Russia on what was best-on -best. Has to sting badly.

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01-09-2013, 08:04 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by bowline View Post
I would think losing to the US and Russia in medal round games is crushing the Canadian hockey psyche. If had just been the loss to US followed by a win over Russia it wouldn't have been an issue.
However you went 2-2 against the US and Russia on what was best-on -best. Has to sting badly.
It will start to sting if it happens year after year. Canada is three years removed from almost winning a record sixth WJC in a row. One year removed from extending it's record of 10 straight appearances in the final and just failed to win a medal for the first time in 14 years.

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01-09-2013, 08:21 AM
  #737
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When you look down the pipeline at players like McDavid, Ekblad, Reinhart, Day and the like, it seems inevitable that Canada's supremacy is about to return.

I wouldn't be surprised though if a handful of Canada's top draft picks in this draft make the NHL (IMO MacKinnon, Shinkaruk, and Monahan all have good chances to make it), so it's tough to say what next year will bring, but even with Lazar, Domi, Pulock and Nurse, the team still looks very strong and looks to have more intestinal fortitude than last team, which is what we sorely lacked.

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01-09-2013, 08:28 AM
  #738
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dont know if anyone else mentioned this but one thing that I noticed and sort of bothered me was watching Spott's interviews before they lost he would look straight into the camera like he was such a strong leader and then after they lost their first game his whole demeanor change he looked weak, not the leader he was made out to be, my opinion or observations, I could be wrong..

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01-09-2013, 08:32 AM
  #739
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I absolutely agree with people who say that a questionable selection of 1-2 players made no difference for Canada's overall performance. Canada lost as a team. Which, of course, starts with coaching. Tactically and motivationally Canada was outcoached. It's not Murphy's fault that Canada's stacked forward group could only manage 2 ES goals against US and Russia. We all know the talent was there. It's a matter of tactics and motivation.


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01-09-2013, 08:59 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
When you look down the pipeline at players like McDavid, Ekblad, Reinhart, Day and the like, it seems inevitable that Canada's supremacy is about to return.

I wouldn't be surprised though if a handful of Canada's top draft picks in this draft make the NHL (IMO MacKinnon, Shinkaruk, and Monahan all have good chances to make it), so it's tough to say what next year will bring, but even with Lazar, Domi, Pulock and Nurse, the team still looks very strong and looks to have more intestinal fortitude than last team, which is what we sorely lacked.
How so? This tournament demonstrated that having the best (i.e. most talented or best NHL prospects) players doesn't mean jack. I also noticed you didn't mention a goaltender in your group.

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01-09-2013, 09:05 AM
  #741
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pre-game.
Pre-tournament.

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01-09-2013, 09:06 AM
  #742
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How so? This tournament demonstrated that having the best (i.e. most talented or best NHL prospects) players doesn't mean jack. I also noticed you didn't mention a goaltender in your group.
Well goaltending is certainly Canada's Achilles' heel, but thanks for mentioning that because this year seems to have the best crop of Canadian goaltenders in a long time, which should set us up for the next couple years and hopefully is a trend that will continue.

I disagree this was the best team Canada can offer. Canada's had a chance to go with all skill in the past but only this year did they do it. The most expensive ingredients doesn't guarantee the best cake. This team was way too soft and as I said, guys that can make it next year like Lazar, Pulock and Domi offer a lot more jam than we had this year, which has always been the formula for Canada's success.

Also the Canadian stars of tomorrow (Day, Ekblad, McDavid) seem to be on a different level than Hamilton or Morgan Rielly. Sam Reinhart is highly skilled offensively but is also a great PK'er and defensive player, something that can't be said about Huberdeau, RNH or Strome.

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01-09-2013, 10:54 AM
  #743
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I don't think Canada had a "softness" problem at all. In fact, one compliment I can pay Canada is that they smartened up about IIHF regulations and toned down their rough play, punishing their opponents with PP goals rather than with fists. If they start playing aggressively again, they are risking a string of penalties and suspensions again.

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01-09-2013, 11:27 AM
  #744
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I don't think Canada had a "softness" problem at all. In fact, one compliment I can pay Canada is that they smartened up about IIHF regulations and toned down their rough play, punishing their opponents with PP goals rather than with fists. If they start playing aggressively again, they are risking a string of penalties and suspensions again.
Canada's 5 straight wins were all aggressive tough teams. This year, Canada was always getting bullied in scrums and pushed around which is unheard of for Team Canada.

It's not just about big hits and intimidation, Canada was lacking grit in general; there were no greasy garbage goals scored, which is another Team Canada staple. We had no guys like Mark Stone, Matt Halischuk, Brad Marchand, Shawn Matthias.., these guys have always been key to Team Canada's success and this year we had no one like that. A guy like Adam Lowry would have been perfect to fill that role but for some reason he wasn't selected. Even an underager in Sean Monahan would have brought the team some desperately needed grit.

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01-09-2013, 11:28 AM
  #745
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I absolutely agree with people who say that a questionable selection of 1-2 players made no difference for Canada's overall performance. Canada lost as a team. Which, of course, starts with coaching. Tactically and motivationally Canada was outcoached. It's not Murphy's fault that Canada's stacked forward group could only manage 2 ES goals against US and Russia. We all know the talent was there. It's a matter of tactics and motivation.
The nail has been smacked on the head. The right players were selected other than a few borderline picks. Compare this team to the cohesive, prepared team from 2006. The 2013 team blows 2006 away in terms of talent (though not in terms of defence). How could that 2006 team outscore the 2013 team? They came with a game plan and a purpose, and they played hard. That is the main difference. I think it's noteworthy that the 2006 team were not treated like celebrities in Canada just for having made the team. Completely different attitudes.

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01-09-2013, 02:57 PM
  #746
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A few random thoughts:

I'd love to speculate on what happened but I honestly have no idea. The win over Russia on New Years Eve was dominant. Subban was brilliant, the scoring was there, and Spott completely out-coached Russia. At the end of the day, we **** the bed in the semi finals and got manhandled by the Americans. I'm young, but it was the worst 60 minutes of hockey I've seen a WJC Team Canada play.

Perhaps Spott didn't motivate the troops, perhaps the bye hurt us...any number of things could have happened. The Team Canada that beat Russia in pool play would have won the gold medal; I don't think anyone can dispute that. Sadly, we didn't get to see that team again.

-I wish Spott had have kept with Subban so I could say he stuck to his guns. Subban was the only Canadian that showed up to play in the semis vs the Americans, and he got hung out to dry.

-Starting a cold Binnington against the Russians was a mistake. It was too late in the tournament for a goalie change. If you're going to go with Binnington, you should have went with him from the get-go.

-Ryan Murphy < Morgan Rielly at the start of the tournament, but by the end of the tournament Ryan Murphy > Morgan Rielly. Still don't understand why those two saw ice time together.

-I really wish we could see MacKinnon and Drouin on the top line next year but at least one of them will be in the NHL

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Old
01-09-2013, 03:39 PM
  #747
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I think it's noteworthy that the 2006 team were not treated like celebrities in Canada just for having made the team. Completely different attitudes.
This is an excellent point. That string of five gold medals starting in 05 really expanded the focus on these teams in this country. Coaching is more important in Canada than any country, in part because of the ridiculous amount of exposure the teams gets these days. The tournament was still under the radar in 06 when you compare it to the over saturation we have today.

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01-09-2013, 04:09 PM
  #748
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This is an excellent point. That string of five gold medals starting in 05 really expanded the focus on these teams in this country. Coaching is more important in Canada than any country, in part because of the ridiculous amount of exposure the teams gets these days. The tournament was still under the radar in 06 when you compare it to the over saturation we have today.
Yeah, something happened during that time period that made TSN's coverage almost unwatchable, but I certainly wouldn't say it was "under the radar" in '06, at least not in Canada. I think the over-saturation you're referring to maybe had something to do with the string of four tournaments held in Ottawa, Saskatoon/Regina, Buffalo (which was inundated with Canadian fans anyway), then Calgary/Edmonton. As someone who watched the WJs religiously from 1991 onwards, I think the WJHCs lost a lot of their charm when they started being held in Canadian (or essentially Canadian) cities every year, and fairly large ones at that. I had lived in the U.S. from 2007 to 2010 (and missed the 2008 to 2010 WJHCs) and when I came back I literally couldn't believe the hype and media coverage now surrounding the tournament.

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01-10-2013, 04:26 AM
  #749
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Again, Canada let down by choosing the wrong goaltenders at the wrong time, the wrong defence, and the wrong coach to take advantage of what skill we have.

Above all, we're let down by the wrong attitude. We're not just going to steamroll the tournament anymore. It's time to adjust to this and get our act together. People act like the selection camp isn't a big deal and it doesn't matter that much here or there...but it does. The other nations have caught up with us, and we can't afford to take a few of the wrong guys anymore...especially in net. In a short tournament where a hot goaltender can swing the tides easily.

Basically, Canada's 'niche' is evaporating from all sides. Being gritty isn't going to cut it, being tough isn't going to cut it, having heart isn't going to cut it...we need to combine that with skill, riding the hot hand, and good coaching with preparation.

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01-10-2013, 04:30 AM
  #750
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And to single one particular player out...Mark Scheifele honestly disgusted me with his diving and whining and looking back to the refs for calls after every little possible infraction. I don't care if you played in the NHL for a few games, sack up and keep playing.

I lost a lot of respect for him as a player over the course of this tournament.

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