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The Kreider Thread (1/22: Kreider fine, skating at practice)

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01-10-2013, 03:25 AM
  #26
FromTheSide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
So a guy that steps right into the postseason never seeing NHL time before then, scoring the same number of goals of our offensive star, won't make the lineup because a few months of struggle in AHL?

Oh look, maybe Kreider is the next Ranger up to get demanded to be traded by the fan base.
Yeah lets not mention that our offensive star played with 1 arm...thats not relevant information at all

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01-10-2013, 04:38 AM
  #27
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I don't think there's any issue... He'll have every opportunity to prove himself worthy of being in the line-up and he will get a clean slate from the start of camp. Lack of AHL production does not put him in the dog house when he rejoins the big club. I don't even spend any time thinking about this as I fail to see the need for concern about this.

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01-10-2013, 05:05 AM
  #28
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Might be a silly thing to say, but maybe he's just been taking it easy in the AHL as to not get himself injured before his real season starts?

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01-10-2013, 06:42 AM
  #29
Ola
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Originally Posted by 92hatchattack View Post
Might be a silly thing to say, but maybe he's just been taking it easy in the AHL as to not get himself injured before his real season starts?
I don't know about silly, but its just not the case.

Its ridiculous to expect Kreider to be able to score at the pace he has in the AHL while taking it easy to be perfectly honest.

I've feared this risk regarding Kreider for a long time and while I was calmed some when watching him in the PO's, it has definitely resurfaced now again. The expectations on a kid like that tends to go way overboard, actually very simular as to what happend with Grachev. And that is just not good.

On Kreider, there is always a risk with a player like that who possibly has some weakness besides some very strong attributes if you get what I mean. Kreider got a body and wheels of a 8m players. There is nothing wrong with his hands or attitude. But, at the same time, the thinking process of a high scoring player in pro-hockey is definitely, and I mean definitely and by a wide margin, just not there in Kreiders case (please note that I am not stating that the thinking process of say a avg 2nd line player isn't there. From say a 2nd line 40 pts players perspective, he is not lost. But from a 70 pts player perspective, he is defintiely just that, "lost").

I mean, that's why we got him at 19 overall, otherwise he would have gone 1st overall or 2nd overall. Like Christian Thomas head on Kreiders body and you fall just short of a AO. And its not suprising that he isn't elite in this ability. Not that many kids are when you look at the big picture, ie the 1000's of kids every year that gives it all to become pro's. Kreider is maybe top 3-5 among them in several cathegories, and then maybe top 500 in others. Just because you are good at one of them don't mean you have to be good in the other. He goes in straight lines on the ice. He goes where the coach tells him to go. Inbetween that you got the game of hockey to be honest. Almost atleast.

Also, its important to look closely at what this kid really got and what he does not have. Kreider for example has NEVER been a good forechecker. People see him take off on a odd-man rush and is strong automatically assume that he is great on the forecheck, he isn't. He isn't even good on the forecheck. NEVER has been. That kind of annoys me. You either need smarts or the waterbug type of skating of a Hagelin or Helm to really harash the D's at the highest level, and Kreider just got none of that. That was Kreiders big problem in the men's WCH's he played in, his coach put him in a forechecking role in the first couple of games and he was painfully behind the play and was benched. Then when his coach played him again, Kreider was instead used in a 3rd man back role. In the end, I DEFINITELY think Kreider will be fine and become a decent player for us. But, we should keep our expectations on the kids in shack and be patient with him.

I projected Kreider to score around 0.5 - 0.66 PPG in the AHL before this season, after his play in the PO's. I mean, can anyone point at one single player in the AHL right now who are scoring even in the neighborhood of a PPG and explain to me why Kreider should be able to score at a simular pace???

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01-10-2013, 06:59 AM
  #30
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He has to be in the lineup opening night. The moves the Rangers made this offseason were predicated on him being a part of the team.

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01-10-2013, 07:35 AM
  #31
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This has not concerned me one bit. Not one bit. I've seen enough of Kreider over the years - particularly on the biggest of stages (WJC, NCAA Frozen Four, NHL playoffs) to know he's got it.

The fact that he doesn't have mind-boggling numbers at the AHL level? There are plenty of good, extremely valid reasons that have already been listed (playing on a bad team, no playmaker to feed him, etc.), but I'm going to add another that hasn't been mentioned: Ken Gernander. I've been saying it for years. He can help mold your defensive minded guys, but this guy stifles the offensive progression of prospects.

Name me one prospect with offensive talent whose game has flourished under Kenny G.

Dubinsky? Nope, graduated before he became the head coach.
Callahan? Nope, graduated before he became the head coach (but for the brief 11 game demotion his second season).
Dawes? Ugh.
Bourret? Ugh.
Korpikoski? Meh.
Stepan? Nope, college player who didn't need any time in the minors before being called up.
Grachev? Ugh.
Hagelin? Nope, college player who only needed a cup of coffee in the minors before being called up.
Kreider...? Thank goodness the lockout is over so that we can get him away from Gernander.

How about offensive defensemen?
Sanguinetti? Ugh.
Gilroy? Ugh.
Kundratek? Ugh.

Anisimov is the only example I can recall of a player with offensive skill who flourished under Kenny G. - and that's only because he is actually a defense-first player who also happens to have offensive skill.

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01-10-2013, 07:43 AM
  #32
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I've noticed a lot of people are starting to think kreider wont be good anymore because of his AHL stats. I dont put too much stock in those stats i think krieder was working on other parts of his game also the whale dont have a lot of talent like the rangers. Kreider and stepan seem to have real good chemistry

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01-10-2013, 07:53 AM
  #33
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Gernander is a horrible coach. Geez all of the players who came through Hartford and became NHL players were quality players. Top picks. The Rangers scouts found them. Schoenfeld loves Gernander.

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01-10-2013, 07:56 AM
  #34
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McDonagh wasn't great in the AHL. I remember some of the fans didn't believe McD was ready or had earned an opportunity.

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01-10-2013, 08:02 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
McDonagh wasn't great in the AHL. I remember some of the fans didn't believe McD was ready or had earned an opportunity.
Eberle, and Hall didn't exactly light the AHL on fire either this year.

He'll be fine.

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01-10-2013, 08:05 AM
  #36
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There simply is no issue. At least right now there isn't. There is no doubt whatsoever that Kreider will start with the big club. Only if he struggles mightily over an extended period of time, then you have to think about sending him back to the AHL.

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01-10-2013, 08:12 AM
  #37
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If he looks good in training camp, does what the coaches say, he'll get a shot. They're not inviting him to camp just to say "good show, now go back to the AHL". They wouldn't invite him if they weren't thinking of playing him.

If he doesn't do well in camp, he'll go back down. If he starts the season and struggles, he'll go back down.

That's all there is to it. His performance in Hartford has less weight than how he does in camp at this point.

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01-10-2013, 08:15 AM
  #38
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This won't be much of a debate unless he just does'nt try in camp and that's not gonna happen.

They already burned a yr off his entry level deal so he's going to play in the NHL
He also did great in the playoffs
Sure he has not done great in the AHL but he is also being focussed in there. In the NHL they cant focus on a kid when Nash and Gaborik are going to be lurking.

I think Kreider is going to be just fine. His speed alone will help the team and he shouldnt be a liability

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01-10-2013, 08:23 AM
  #39
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Other than that they are both Americans I don't think Kreider and Dubi are similar in styles at all.

Dubi is a scrappy gamer, more playmaker than scorer. Not the best skater. More puck posession type of player.

Kreider is more goal scorer than playmaker. Probably not going to shed the mitts as that is not his role. Superior skater to Dubi.

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01-10-2013, 08:29 AM
  #40
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I'm alreaedy bracing myself for the "Krieder's a bust...trade him while he still has some value" threads

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01-10-2013, 08:44 AM
  #41
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I don't see an issue. The team is built for him to succeed and I believe every opportunity will be given to him to do so. He'll start in the top six and either sink or swim.

As RB and others have said, McDonagh hardly lit the AHL on fire. But when given the opportunity at the NHL level, he succeeded. I think Kreider will do the same.

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01-10-2013, 08:50 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
I'm alreaedy bracing myself for the "Krieder's a bust...trade him while he still has some value" threads
I'm shocked they haven't happened yet.

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01-10-2013, 08:52 AM
  #43
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The thing with Kreider is that it isn't top-6 or bust. He would be an effective 3rd liner even if he doesn't score because of his size, strength and skating ability. He will make the team, as he should. The players I want to hear more about are Kolarik (who the organization likes) and Hrivik. Dark-horses.

On top of that, I liked the Haley signing over the summer.

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01-10-2013, 08:52 AM
  #44
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The thing with Kreider is that it isn't top-6 or bust. He would be an effective 3rd liner even if he doesn't score because of his size, strength and skating ability. He will make the team, as he should. The players I want to hear more about are Kolarik (who the organization likes) and Hrivik. Dark-horses.

On top of that, I liked the Haley signing over the summer.

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01-10-2013, 09:42 AM
  #45
Kovalev27
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There's no debate

He's at worst in the top 9 most likely top 6

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01-10-2013, 09:51 AM
  #46
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Anyway, I don't think we can afford not to have Kreider in the lineup. We don't have the left wing depth. Unless you really wanna see Rupp on the 3rd line and Mike Haley in the lineup every day.

And that's the crux of it. We need Kreider and the coaches will try to push him ahead of his schedule. I don't like when that's done to young hockey players, which is why I'm really glad he had a chance to spend half a season in the AHL. I think this experience is more valuable to him than most people realize.

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01-10-2013, 10:03 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I projected Kreider to score around 0.5 - 0.66 PPG in the AHL before this season, after his play in the PO's. I mean, can anyone point at one single player in the AHL right now who are scoring even in the neighborhood of a PPG and explain to me why Kreider should be able to score at a simular pace???

I agree with the rest of your post (and most of your posts, in fact), but this is off.

- Kreider is almost a year older than Hrivik with more experience. So how come he's scoring at half the pace of Hrivik?

- Kreider is over a year older than Thomas. How come he can't keep pace?

- Even Bourque, same age as Kreider, has a tiny bit more points per game than Kreider. Bourque, ladies and gentlemen, Bourque! And Bourque is playing on the 4th line with guys who have no shot of every coming close to the NHL.

- Somehow, marginal AHLers like Grant, Segal and even defenseman Logan Pyett are outscoring Kreider.


Nobody is saying he should come in and immediately score over a point per game. But when you are being outscored by career minor leaguers who are playing on the 4th line or are defensemen, that isn't acceptable production.


Last edited by Beacon: 01-10-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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01-10-2013, 10:17 AM
  #48
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I agree with the rest of your post (and most of your posts, in fact), but this is off.

- Kreider is almost a year older than Hrivik with more experience. So how come he's scoing at half the pace of Hrivik?

- Kreider is over a year older than Thomas. How come he can't keep pace?

- Even Bourque, same age as Kreider, has a tiny bit more points per game than Kreider. Bourque, ladies and gentlemen, Bourque! And Bourque is playing on the 4th line with guy who have no shot of every coming close to the NHL.

- Somehow, marginal AHLers like Grant, Segal and even defenseman Logan Pyett are outscoring Kreider.


Nobody is saying he should come in and immediately score over a point per game. But when you are being outscored by career minor leaguers who are playing on the 4th line or are defensemen, that isn't acceptable production.
Cue "the team told him to rest and take it easy conspiracy"

But if we work from the ground up and assume Kreider is in fact the player he's always been at junior, college, pro level including last playoff. At worst then he's having struggles and in a rut in the AHL on a bad team. Nothing's changed, just going through the motion.

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01-10-2013, 10:39 AM
  #49
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Kreider always adjusts. He doesn't possess phenomenal vision or hockey sense so it's always going to take him some time to catch up to the speed of his level, I think. I'd bet that if he played the full year in the AHL, he'd be posting good numbers by the end of it. It took him a while to establish himself in college and I think it will take him some time to establish himself as a well-rounded pro.

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01-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Kreider always adjusts. He doesn't possess phenomenal vision or hockey sense so it's always going to take him some time to catch up to the speed of his level, I think. I'd bet that if he played the full year in the AHL, he'd be posting good numbers by the end of it. It took him a while to establish himself in college and I think it will take him some time to establish himself as a well-rounded pro.

We are all hoping for that. I am still projecting him as a 25-25 player.

When I say he struggled in Hartford, it doesn't mean that I'm saying he's a bust. People claiming that are arguing against strawmen. There are essentially two, non-excusive debates here:

1. Kreider struggled in the AHL.
2. Kreider has potential.

But the two are not exclusive of each other. Kreider could be a good prospect while struggling in the AHL. That's why I voted for him to be our #1 prospect, while saying that he's struggled in the AHL.

Anyone who denies that he hasn't done well in Hartford is simply wrong.

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