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Old
01-09-2013, 11:29 PM
  #451
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I don't know what games you've been watching but I don't think you will find a single Habs fan or otherwise who can honestly say that PK was a stud for 2 entire seasons. He was wildly inconsistent and his play was erratic for most of the time. He played well down the stretch but in both seasons he had terrible starts. If you honestly beleive he was a "stud" for the past 2 years than arguing this point with you will be moot. Quite simply put, he wasn't.

Markov has already paid his dues and shown he can be a top tier defensman. I don't think it's a matter of Markov proving anything but rather getting back to a level of play he's demonstrated this year and last that he's capable of playing.

I'm always going to give the edge to a player who's accomplished something over one who hasn't yet. I hope I'm wrong and they give each other a run for their money. That's when you know the Habs will have a great defense corp.
I've watched every Habs game and PK. I remember PK getting blamed for a mistake because it lead to a goal without getting applauded for the more subtle nice plays as simple as proper positioning. People saw Ladouceur yell at PK on the bench so that makes the front page the next day.
I really don't have a favorite player in the Habs, I truly do not care about the name of the player behind the jersey. I have no reason to think PK was actually better than he actually was.
Now, he wasn't perfect, but for a rookie and sophomore to be used as much as he has, versus top opponents, in every situation possible, you bet your ass he was a stud. We're not talking about a 8 year veteran here. You're talking about a 21yo rookie and 22yo sophomore.
His play was not mostly erratic. He made mistakes, and was inconsistent, but that's only normal when you have a kid with a huge target on his back (even more so than other young stars because of his trashtalking talent) playing versus the top opponents in every situation possible while playing the most, it's only normal to see him struggle at times. If he did not and played as a veteran, he would be a superstar already and make close to the league's max.

Just like if you look at Emelin's and Diaz's season you can say they had good years (up until injury for Diaz), but that's considering they were rookies from Europe.
If this was their 4th year, it wouldn't have been that great.

Markov had paid his dues and proved he can be a top tier Dman. Unfortunately for him, he suffered major injuries and barely played in over 3years. Assuming he can just come back and pick up where he left off is just asking for disappointment.
Let PK and Gorges that was a good shutdown tandem play versus the top opponents, that way Markov can settle back in the NHL little by little without having the big pressure on his shoulders along side a big Dman in Emelin. If he gets back to where he was, then he'll be given more responsibilities.

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01-10-2013, 05:53 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I've watched every Habs game and PK. I remember PK getting blamed for a mistake because it lead to a goal without getting applauded for the more subtle nice plays as simple as proper positioning. People saw Ladouceur yell at PK on the bench so that makes the front page the next day.
I really don't have a favorite player in the Habs, I truly do not care about the name of the player behind the jersey. I have no reason to think PK was actually better than he actually was.
Now, he wasn't perfect, but for a rookie and sophomore to be used as much as he has, versus top opponents, in every situation possible, you bet your ass he was a stud. We're not talking about a 8 year veteran here. You're talking about a 21yo rookie and 22yo sophomore.
His play was not mostly erratic. He made mistakes, and was inconsistent, but that's only normal when you have a kid with a huge target on his back (even more so than other young stars because of his trashtalking talent) playing versus the top opponents in every situation possible while playing the most, it's only normal to see him struggle at times. If he did not and played as a veteran, he would be a superstar already and make close to the league's max.

Just like if you look at Emelin's and Diaz's season you can say they had good years (up until injury for Diaz), but that's considering they were rookies from Europe.
If this was their 4th year, it wouldn't have been that great.

Markov had paid his dues and proved he can be a top tier Dman. Unfortunately for him, he suffered major injuries and barely played in over 3years. Assuming he can just come back and pick up where he left off is just asking for disappointment.
Let PK and Gorges that was a good shutdown tandem play versus the top opponents, that way Markov can settle back in the NHL little by little without having the big pressure on his shoulders along side a big Dman in Emelin. If he gets back to where he was, then he'll be given more responsibilities.
He played well for his age, position and the situation he was in. That does not mean he was a stud defensman. It means he did good for a rookie/soft more. Karlsson, Chara, Keith, Weber etc. played like stud defensman. PK did not.

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01-10-2013, 06:39 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He played well for his age, position and the situation he was in. That does not mean he was a stud defensman. It means he did good for a rookie/soft more. Karlsson, Chara, Keith, Weber etc. played like stud defensman. PK did not.
Heh.

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01-10-2013, 07:21 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He played well for his age, position and the situation he was in. That does not mean he was a stud defensman. It means he did good for a rookie/soft more. Karlsson, Chara, Keith, Weber etc. played like stud defensman. PK did not.
Well I disagree, I think he played extremely well considering all the factors, but there's no point in arguing whether he was awesome or just good.
The point remains, Markov should be eased into a more important role, not because we're doubting his skills, but simply because you don't want to risk any injuries and you want to make sure he's up to speed again with the NHL game before giving him top opponents. 20 games in the KHL is a start, but it's not comparable to the NHL game. So give him time and while that happens, PK and Gorges can face the top opponents as they have last year.

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01-10-2013, 07:35 AM
  #455
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I don't know what games you were watching. PK still logged more time than him. Anyone and their mother can see that PK is the #1 guy. Markov at this point is not. He may regain his spot but at this point in time, he's behind Subban.

WTF does winning % have to do with one player? Give me a break.
What are you even talking about ? If as you say PK is the Habs #1 D-man, then he is responsible for us NOT making the playoffs last year.

Why is it, "what have you done for me lately" with you lads is such a huge thing ?

Markov is still miles ahead of PK, maybe one day PK might be there, but now nope sorry.

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01-10-2013, 07:47 AM
  #456
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Well I disagree, I think he played extremely well considering all the factors, but there's no point in arguing whether he was awesome or just good.
The point remains, Markov should be eased into a more important role, not because we're doubting his skills, but simply because you don't want to risk any injuries and you want to make sure he's up to speed again with the NHL game before giving him top opponents. 20 games in the KHL is a start, but it's not comparable to the NHL game. So give him time and while that happens, PK and Gorges can face the top opponents as they have last year.
2011-12 Montreal NHL 81 7 29 36 9
2010-11 Montreal NHL 77 14 24 38 -8

Not stud numbers and neither was his play. Like I said the first time I responded with you. If your view is that he played like a stud all season for 2 seasons than we will simply not agree. Simply put, that sounds like a really homer POV that you have.

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01-10-2013, 07:52 AM
  #457
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What are you even talking about ? If as you say PK is the Habs #1 D-man, then he is responsible for us NOT making the playoffs last year.

Why is it, "what have you done for me lately" with you lads is such a huge thing ?

Markov is still miles ahead of PK, maybe one day PK might be there, but now nope sorry.
If that was truly the case Markov wouldn't have had to beg for a job in the KHL during the lockout (and he ultimately signed with one of the dregs of the league)

Let's face it, Markov simply isn't the go-to guy on defense for the Habs anymore. Could re-claim the title at one point? Or course he could. But for now, that title belongs to PK (whether it be by default or not)

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01-10-2013, 07:58 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If that was truly the case Markov wouldn't have had to beg for a job in the KHL during the lockout (and he ultimately signed with one of the dregs of the league)

Let's face it, Markov simply isn't the go-to guy on defense for the Habs anymore. Could re-claim the title at one point? Or course he could. But for now, that title belongs to PK (whether it be by default or not)
What makes you think he begged

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01-10-2013, 08:07 AM
  #459
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The biggest problem with most fans, myself included, is that we do not watch enough games that do not include the Habs. Our personal evaluations of players are skewed by that lack of exposure to other players and our rooting for the local team.

Was PK as good as Shea Weber? Probably not. But whatever erratic play, blown read, out of position situation he got himself into, he had the speed and the will to make up for it and repair his error. That effort is part of what is so great about Subban.

Regarding the Karlsson comparison....one thing I can say after watching a lot of Senators games (because of SportsNet) over the past two years is that Karlsson definitively has a more developed offensive game, but defensively, Subban is the guy I would want to have defending in his zone. Subban's physicality and 2nd effort are currently more effective in his end.

Whether or not Karlsson won the Norris last year, in his own end, there is no way he is the league of Chara, Weber, Lidstrom...or other Norris winners. Not even close, yet. The voters just could not look past the offensive stats, which were great.

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01-10-2013, 08:08 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If that was truly the case Markov wouldn't have had to beg for a job in the KHL during the lockout (and he ultimately signed with one of the dregs of the league)

Let's face it, Markov simply isn't the go-to guy on defense for the Habs anymore. Could re-claim the title at one point? Or course he could. But for now, that title belongs to PK (whether it be by default or not)
Way to pull ******** out of your hat !

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01-10-2013, 08:19 AM
  #461
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What makes you think he begged
If he still was as good as some people think he is (with the standing that goes with it), all the top KHL teams should have wooed him from the start. Which as I recall was not the case. Which is why he settled for bottom-feeding Chekhov Vityaz (likely one of the few - if not the only - teams that would have him)

That would not have been the case if he was still considered a superstar defenseman in a league that is desperately trying to hold on to their previously locked-out russian players by coercion or by throwing millions at them

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01-10-2013, 09:08 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If he still was as good as some people think he is (with the standing that goes with it), all the top KHL teams should have wooed him from the start. Which as I recall was not the case. Which is why he settled for bottom-feeding Chekhov Vityaz (likely one of the few - if not the only - teams that would have him)

That would not have been the case if he was still considered a superstar defenseman in a league that is desperately trying to hold on to their previously locked-out russian players by coercion or by throwing millions at them
Markov played for Vityaz because of his relationships with the people in that organization. Not because he isn't a top Defenseman. What a misinformed post.

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01-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
2011-12 Montreal NHL 81 7 29 36 9
2010-11 Montreal NHL 77 14 24 38 -8

Not stud numbers and neither was his play. Like I said the first time I responded with you. If your view is that he played like a stud all season for 2 seasons than we will simply not agree. Simply put, that sounds like a really homer POV that you have.
So, goals, assists and plus/minus is what you use to determine whether a Defenseman was good or not? Really? People are still doing that here?
And btw, 38pts as a rookie Dman is great, and to do so on such a low scoring, defensive team such as ours was is even better.
In any event, points are really useless. Otherwise, let's look at Gorges and say he's had a horrible year. Ridiculous right?
I'm not a homer, if he played poorly, I'd be the first to say it. He's a great young player that needs to learn how to slow down a bit at times, when you play just under 2000 minutes, you're bound to make mistakes, especially when you have so little experience.

You compared him to guys like Chara-Weber-Keith, some of the cream of the crop. The reason why we differ, is that I don't hold all these guys on the same level, why should I? PK didn't even have 100 NHL games of experience coming in to last season, doesn't seem fair that at the end of it we put them on the same evaluation scale.
I mean, if Gally plays his rookie year and scores 35pts on the 3rd line improving his two way game a lot, are we going to look at Plekanec's numbers (say 60) and say Gally didn't have a great year? Doesn't seem right to me.

I've always said, All things considered, PK had a great year. If all you do is look at 3 stat line, then you're very far from considering everything and it gives you a very flawed conclusion.

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01-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Paul Dipietro View Post
If he still was as good as some people think he is (with the standing that goes with it), all the top KHL teams should have wooed him from the start. Which as I recall was not the case. Which is why he settled for bottom-feeding Chekhov Vityaz (likely one of the few - if not the only - teams that would have him)

That would not have been the case if he was still considered a superstar defenseman in a league that is desperately trying to hold on to their previously locked-out russian players by coercion or by throwing millions at them
Yeah, people in KHL all thought he wasn't that good now, that's probably why he was invited to the All-Star game.

Honestly, I don't know what to expect from him. The safest prediction we can do is to say he's going to be a good top-4 defenseman. He might also be back as his former self (#1 d-man) or being really bad because of the injury, but being highly unlikely imo. Very hard to tell.

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01-10-2013, 11:37 AM
  #465
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can't wait for this deal to get done so the wild rumors can come to an end

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01-10-2013, 11:38 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
2011-12 Montreal NHL 81 7 29 36 9
2010-11 Montreal NHL 77 14 24 38 -8

Not stud numbers and neither was his play. Like I said the first time I responded with you. If your view is that he played like a stud all season for 2 seasons than we will simply not agree. Simply put, that sounds like a really homer POV that you have.
Overall his play the first 2 years in the NHL are far and above what any team expects from their young d-men. In an ideal world he would have broken in as a #5-6 year one and #3-4 year 2 but he was forced to be #1(minutes wise) due to injuries(mostly Markov) and decline/departure(Spacek and Hamrlik). Beiung +9 with the tough minutes he played and all the roles he had to play(PP Pk shutdown etc) on a disapointing team is remarkable. In order to look at those 2 years as anything other than positive you have to be pretty pessimistic.

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01-10-2013, 11:40 AM
  #467
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can't wait for this deal to get done so the wild rumors can come to an end
I think Meehan and Bergevin as supposed to meet today. So we should have a good indication of how things are going fairly soon.

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Old
01-10-2013, 11:43 AM
  #468
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If he still was as good as some people think he is (with the standing that goes with it), all the top KHL teams should have wooed him from the start. Which as I recall was not the case. Which is why he settled for bottom-feeding Chekhov Vityaz (likely one of the few - if not the only - teams that would have him)

That would not have been the case if he was still considered a superstar defenseman in a league that is desperately trying to hold on to their previously locked-out russian players by coercion or by throwing millions at them
He went there after most Russians did so I'm sure budget and slots available played a part, plus he came off missing close to 2 full years so I'm sure he wasn't as in demand as someone coming off a big year.

Bottom line I'm looking forward to see him in action, one of the things in this season I'm most looking forward to.

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01-10-2013, 11:44 AM
  #469
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I think Meehan and Bergevin as supposed to meet today. So we should have a good indication of how things are going fairly soon.
Probably not because until the CBA is finalised they can't conduct actual business, so even if they had a deal we probably wouldn't hear about it for a few days.

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01-10-2013, 11:47 AM
  #470
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Probably not because until the CBA is finalised they can't conduct actual business, so even if they had a deal we probably wouldn't hear about it for a few days.
Ah yes. True. Forgot about that.

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01-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #471
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Probably not because until the CBA is finalised they can't conduct actual business, so even if they had a deal we probably wouldn't hear about it for a few days.
Agents and GMs are allowed to talk.

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01-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #472
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I think Meehan and Bergevin as supposed to meet today. So we should have a good indication of how things are going fairly soon.
So i'm going to have to put up with more statements like "Pk Subban wants to be the highest paid defensman in the league"?

Dear Lord

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01-10-2013, 11:52 AM
  #473
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Agents and GMs are allowed to talk.
This is true, so a deal could be made today !

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01-10-2013, 11:53 AM
  #474
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This is true, so a deal could be made today !
Potentially they could agree to a deal in principal.

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01-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #475
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Potentially they could agree to a deal in principal.
I can almost garantee you that the two have already talked in the past and that a deal will be made before Saturdays opening of training camp...It's a PR thing.

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