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01-10-2013, 12:55 PM
  #476
shutehinside
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Overall his play the first 2 years in the NHL are far and above what any team expects from their young d-men. In an ideal world he would have broken in as a #5-6 year one and #3-4 year 2 but he was forced to be #1(minutes wise) due to injuries(mostly Markov) and decline/departure(Spacek and Hamrlik). Beiung +9 with the tough minutes he played and all the roles he had to play(PP Pk shutdown etc) on a disapointing team is remarkable. In order to look at those 2 years as anything other than positive you have to be pretty pessimistic.
If you read any of my previous posts you'd have read that I agree with all you just said. That being said, the point of contention is that the poster I was replying to said PK played like a "stud" for those 2 years. I don't think he did and any fan or observer who blindly said PK played like a "stud" insinuating he played like a top 10 defensmen can't have seen the games or is such a big homer that they've lost objectivity. Not taking away from PK, but I wouldn't have him as one of the top 10 or 20 defensmen in the league in those 2 years as he was inconsitent during that time.

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01-10-2013, 01:56 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
If you read any of my previous posts you'd have read that I agree with all you just said. That being said, the point of contention is that the poster I was replying to said PK played like a "stud" for those 2 years. I don't think he did and any fan or observer who blindly said PK played like a "stud" insinuating he played like a top 10 defensmen can't have seen the games or is such a big homer that they've lost objectivity. Not taking away from PK, but I wouldn't have him as one of the top 10 or 20 defensmen in the league in those 2 years as he was inconsitent during that time.

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When did I ever said he played like a top 10 Defenseman? I said he played like a stud ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. You can't simply ignore that last part of the sentence. I've said it numerous times already. I think there is a clear difference between those two statements. I even said he's a top pairing D, and arguably top 1. That is a far stretch from top 10 in the NHL.

And again, when we look at EVERYTHING, he performed like a stud. In no way does that mean he was on par with Doughty or Weber. So quit assuming that this is what I meant, it isn't.
For the last time, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

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01-10-2013, 02:10 PM
  #478
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Here's exactly what you posted and why I replied to your post.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What do you mean ditto for PK?? He has been a stud Dman for us these past two years. He needs to prove he can get into the 50-60pt mark, Markov not only needs to prove that but also show that he can remain healthy. PK doesn't have to show this at all, he's been healthy.
You may have elaborated in later posts, but that's what your initial post was and what I tried to expand on by saying he played very well but wasn't the stud you claimed he was.

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When did I ever said he played like a top 10 Defenseman? I said he played like a stud ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. You can't simply ignore that last part of the sentence. I've said it numerous times already. I think there is a clear difference between those two statements. I even said he's a top pairing D, and arguably top 1. That is a far stretch from top 10 in the NHL.

And again, when we look at EVERYTHING, he performed like a stud. In no way does that mean he was on par with Doughty or Weber. So quit assuming that this is what I meant, it isn't.
For the last time, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
When someone says he's a "stud" defensman, they don't ever canote it by saying "all things considered." A Stud defensman is a top tier defensman who's amongst the best in the NHL. So saying he's been a stud and than saying later "all things considered" and than coming back and trying to make it sound like I misquoted you isn't cool.

At the end of day, we're not far from what we're saying just saying it in different ways.

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01-10-2013, 02:12 PM
  #479
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Subban is a 1D the same way Phaneuf is. He can do it, but it's far from ideal.

The difference of course being Subban can still get better.

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01-10-2013, 02:16 PM
  #480
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The more this drags on the more worried I get.

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01-10-2013, 02:21 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Lizardking89 View Post
The more this drags on the more worried I get.
This is pretty much what I expected. Subban wants to get paid, his agent wants to get paid, and they both know the Habs need him.

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01-10-2013, 03:13 PM
  #482
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The more this drags on the more worried I get.
It's not dragging on...they CAN'T sign him right now

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01-10-2013, 03:17 PM
  #483
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It's not dragging on...they CAN'T sign him right now
ITcould be done on Saturday or Sunday.

I just hope PK (and his agent) is not looking for Dougthy's contract.

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01-10-2013, 03:24 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
ITcould be done on Saturday or Sunday.

I just hope PK (and his agent) is not looking for Dougthy's contract.
Even Karlsson money at $5.5M is too much for PK. His agent needs to check his head if he thinks Habs will cave and givehim that now. Imagine what will he ask for if he becomes a 60 point defensman!?

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01-10-2013, 03:38 PM
  #485
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Subban is a 1D the same way Phaneuf is. He can do it, but it's far from ideal.

The difference of course being Subban can still get better.
Maybe, but the list of guys that are both big impact even strength defenders and high level contributors on both special teams in the NHL is only about 13-20 names long (depending on opinion and definition of terms) and Subban is pretty clearly one of them.

He may not be a superstar presently but I'd argue he's at least league average for a team's best defenseman.

Although I'm hoping opinions on his ability haven't caught up with his level of performance and his contract is more "first pairing" money than "number one" money.

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01-10-2013, 03:50 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Even Karlsson money at $5.5M is too much for PK. His agent needs to check his head if he thinks Habs will cave and givehim that now. Imagine what will he ask for if he becomes a 60 point defensman!?
Karlsson got 6.5M, 5.5M is what Tyler Myers got.

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01-10-2013, 03:55 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Karlsson got 6.5M, 5.5M is what Tyler Myers got.
That's right. My bad.

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01-10-2013, 03:58 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Even Karlsson money at $5.5M is too much for PK. His agent needs to check his head if he thinks Habs will cave and givehim that now. Imagine what will he ask for if he becomes a 60 point defensman!?
The only way P.K becomes a 60 point defenseman is if Galchenyuk becomes the second coming of Malkin and he feasts off him on the PP. P.K doesn't have the hockey sense to excel on the PP and put up massive Markov/Karlsson like numbers. He *may* get another one of his sudden growth spurts where he progresses at an insane level and reaches that...

Frankly I think a realistic expectation of PK's ceiling lies somewhere around 45-50 points. He may peak a little higher than that in some years. I think this is where we can agree, I think PK needs to really study what Markov does and apply it to his game. Markov's absolute biggest strength is his patience with the puck. He waits for the perfect moment to pass or shoot, which Subban never does.. More often then not he shoots right away or he hangs on too long and ends up doing a spin-o-rama to try to get free. It works sometimes but others it doesn't.

IF PK can slow down the pace of the game, then really the sky is the limit...

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01-10-2013, 04:00 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
The only way P.K becomes a 60 point defenseman is if Galchenyuk becomes the second coming of Malkin and he feasts off him on the PP. P.K doesn't have the hockey sense to excel on the PP and put up massive Markov/Karlsson like numbers. He *may* get another one of his sudden growth spurts where he progresses at an insane level and reaches that...

Frankly I think a realistic expectation of PK's ceiling lies somewhere around 45-50 points. He may peak a little higher than that in some years. I think this is where we can agree, I think PK needs to really study what Markov does and apply it to his game. Markov's absolute biggest strength is his patience with the puck. He waits for the perfect moment to pass or shoot, which Subban never does.. More often then not he shoots right away or he hangs on too long and ends up doing a spin-o-rama to try to get free. It works sometimes but others it doesn't.

IF PK can slow down the pace of the game, then really the sky is the limit...
Hopefully the new coaching staff with JJ Daigneault as d-men coach gonna help him work on his decision making. I am also pretty sure Therrien and Gallant (+ Martin Lapointe) won't endure his off ice behaviours and are going to talk to him about it.

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01-10-2013, 04:41 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Here's exactly what you posted and why I replied to your post.



You may have elaborated in later posts, but that's what your initial post was and what I tried to expand on by saying he played very well but wasn't the stud you claimed he was.



When someone says he's a "stud" defensman, they don't ever canote it by saying "all things considered." A Stud defensman is a top tier defensman who's amongst the best in the NHL. So saying he's been a stud and than saying later "all things considered" and than coming back and trying to make it sound like I misquoted you isn't cool.

At the end of day, we're not far from what we're saying just saying it in different ways.
Yes I originally posted "stud" without specifying "all things considered because to me, when speaking of a rookie/sophomore, and in particular PK's case (I didn't think I had to explain to another fellow poster who is fully aware of PK's upbringing as opposed to another rookie who's brought up slowly as 5-6th Dman), it's evident I meant all things considered.
In any event, I later specified that it was "all things considered" so I'm not sure why you still speak of it as I meant it compared to guys like Weber. That would be foolish.

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01-10-2013, 05:11 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes I originally posted "stud" without specifying "all things considered because to me, when speaking of a rookie/sophomore, and in particular PK's case (I didn't think I had to explain to another fellow poster who is fully aware of PK's upbringing as opposed to another rookie who's brought up slowly as 5-6th Dman), it's evident I meant all things considered.
In any event, I later specified that it was "all things considered" so I'm not sure why you still speak of it as I meant it compared to guys like Weber. That would be foolish.
Maybe it was apparent to you but not to me. Karlsson was in his softmore year and had just as much experience as PK when he won the Norris. He was a stud all things being considered too and didnt need a qualifier like PK did. Drew Doughty is a stud defenseman and won a cup.
Karlsson and Doughty are players that PK can be compared to without having to mention Weber or Chara etc. who are studs without your having to qualify them as "all things considered," so I guess it's not as obvious as you're making out to be.

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01-10-2013, 05:20 PM
  #492
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The only way P.K becomes a 60 point defenseman is if Galchenyuk becomes the second coming of Malkin and he feasts off him on the PP. P.K doesn't have the hockey sense to excel on the PP and put up massive Markov/Karlsson like numbers. He *may* get another one of his sudden growth spurts where he progresses at an insane level and reaches that...

Frankly I think a realistic expectation of PK's ceiling lies somewhere around 45-50 points. He may peak a little higher than that in some years. I think this is where we can agree, I think PK needs to really study what Markov does and apply it to his game. Markov's absolute biggest strength is his patience with the puck. He waits for the perfect moment to pass or shoot, which Subban never does.. More often then not he shoots right away or he hangs on too long and ends up doing a spin-o-rama to try to get free. It works sometimes but others it doesn't.

IF PK can slow down the pace of the game, then really the sky is the limit...
In any event, 60 point defensemen largely don't exist anymore. Almost no one can crack 30 ES points anymore and if they do they won't repeat it. Likewise, there aren't enough PP minutes these days to get above 30 points there.

Each season a combination of talent and everything going right is going to propel someone to that level or higher (Karlsson last year, Visnovski before that, Green and Keith the year before him) but they can't repeat it. Even hitting 50 is hard unless you have tremendous forward talent in front of you or you play like a 4th forward.

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01-10-2013, 05:33 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
In any event, 60 point defensemen largely don't exist anymore. Almost no one can crack 30 ES points anymore and if they do they won't repeat it. Likewise, there aren't enough PP minutes these days to get above 30 points there.

Each season a combination of talent and everything going right is going to propel someone to that level or higher (Karlsson last year, Visnovski before that, Green and Keith the year before him) but they can't repeat it. Even hitting 50 is hard unless you have tremendous forward talent in front of you or you play like a 4th forward.
Yeah, the one defender who had no problem going over 50 points regularly before he started getting injured was Mike Green, and that's because he was more of a forward than a defenseman.

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01-10-2013, 05:36 PM
  #494
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Yeah, the one defender who had no problem going over 50 points regularly before he started getting injured was Mike Green, and that's because he was more of a forward than a defenseman.
Not to mention Washington's run and gun style, with a prime Ovechkin-Backstrom and Semin.

No wonder he put up so many points.

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01-10-2013, 05:57 PM
  #495
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Maybe it was apparent to you but not to me. Karlsson was in his softmore year and had just as much experience as PK when he won the Norris. He was a stud all things being considered too and didnt need a qualifier like PK did. Drew Doughty is a stud defenseman and won a cup.
Karlsson and Doughty are players that PK can be compared to without having to mention Weber or Chara etc. who are studs without your having to qualify them as "all things considered," so I guess it's not as obvious as you're making out to be.
First of all, this was Karlsson's 3rd season, not 2nd. So he wasn't a sophomore. He had a season more than PK. Also, speaking of him, PK had a much better rookie season than him. He's also a much more offensive Dman, I wouldn't say he's better than PK defensively.
As for Doughty, need I remind you about his sophomore "slump" similar to PK's? Not to mention the criticism he went through after holding out for more cash and apparently coming in out of shape?
These guys have more experience than PK, but PK isn't that far off from them. If PK steps up and learns to settle his play a bit, he'll be at the same level.

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01-10-2013, 06:16 PM
  #496
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First of all, this was Karlsson's 3rd season, not 2nd. So he wasn't a sophomore. He had a season more than PK. Also, speaking of him, PK had a much better rookie season than him. He's also a much more offensive Dman, I wouldn't say he's better than PK defensively.
As for Doughty, need I remind you about his sophomore "slump" similar to PK's? Not to mention the criticism he went through after holding out for more cash and apparently coming in out of shape?
These guys have more experience than PK, but PK isn't that far off from them. If PK steps up and learns to settle his play a bit, he'll be at the same level.
Well Karlsson and PK both started in 2009. Karlsson played more but that was the year they both broke in.

That's besides the point. I never said Doughty and Karlsson had identical situations, I said they were comparable.

As for you comparing PK to Karlsson (who won the Norris) and Doughty (who was integral in winning a cup) yeah, he's just a good as they are, that's not a homer comment at all. You're absolutely right, what was I thinking?

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01-10-2013, 06:35 PM
  #497
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First of all, this was Karlsson's 3rd season, not 2nd. So he wasn't a sophomore. He had a season more than PK. Also, speaking of him, PK had a much better rookie season than him. He's also a much more offensive Dman, I wouldn't say he's better than PK defensively.
As for Doughty, need I remind you about his sophomore "slump" similar to PK's? Not to mention the criticism he went through after holding out for more cash and apparently coming in out of shape?
These guys have more experience than PK, but PK isn't that far off from them. If PK steps up and learns to settle his play a bit, he'll be at the same level.
Put another way, both Doughty and Karlsson in the past 3 years have had two more ordinary seasons and one where things really broke their way. Subban has yet to have such a year.

Doughty coming back to earth after a monster 59 point campaign is a good example of why I doubt flirting with a PPG is a regular thing for Karlsson.

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01-10-2013, 06:46 PM
  #498
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Well Karlsson and PK both started in 2009. Karlsson played more but that was the year they both broke in.

That's besides the point. I never said Doughty and Karlsson had identical situations, I said they were comparable.

As for you comparing PK to Karlsson (who won the Norris) and Doughty (who was integral in winning a cup) yeah, he's just a good as they are, that's not a homer comment at all. You're absolutely right, what was I thinking?
PK played 2 NHL games in the 2009-2010 regular season, both in February 2010 against Philly.

Karlsson had played, if my memory serves me correct about 65 games that season.

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01-10-2013, 07:51 PM
  #499
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Well Karlsson and PK both started in 2009. Karlsson played more but that was the year they both broke in.

That's besides the point. I never said Doughty and Karlsson had identical situations, I said they were comparable.

As for you comparing PK to Karlsson (who won the Norris) and Doughty (who was integral in winning a cup) yeah, he's just a good as they are, that's not a homer comment at all. You're absolutely right, what was I thinking?
I think you're just playing dumb right now.
PK played 2 games in 2009, who cares if they both played their 1st NHL game in 2009. It's completely besides the point and you know it, so why even bring this up?

Actually, I never said they are on the same level. I said PK isn't far off and IF steps it up and settles his play down (which means, takes less chances and smarter decisions). Not sure what was so hard to understand there, are you purposely misreading?

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01-10-2013, 07:53 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Put another way, both Doughty and Karlsson in the past 3 years have had two more ordinary seasons and one where things really broke their way. Subban has yet to have such a year.

Doughty coming back to earth after a monster 59 point campaign is a good example of why I doubt flirting with a PPG is a regular thing for Karlsson.
Agreed. If Karlsson was to rush his offensive numbers, he's likely to neglect his defensive duties and get caught a lot. It happened to him last year, his defensive game wasn't up to par.

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