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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-10-2013, 02:18 PM
  #976
Nash
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Toronto's situation is hard to read. By going the route if rebuilding on the fly, they don't have a cupboard of high calibre prospects and they aren't particularly deep in any position with the pros. Center is a true weakness, but the Leafs were able to score with the likes of Lupul and Kessel. You would hope that JVR and a resurgent Kulemon bolster the offense. Rielly is the only true elite prospect. Gardiner likely tops out at second pairing on most teams. Kadri hasn't even been able to crack the Leafs roster full time after 4 years. Kessel and Lupul are in their prime, as is Phaneuf. Perpetually missing the playoffs and not improving the glaring holes has Toronto as an undesirable location for UFAs. People will cite the fish bowl effect being a larger contributing factor, but if the Leafs were a winning team, that fish bowl is an ego stroking place of worship to the players who succeed. The Leafs need stability in net and to start winning. You just can't keep banking on future success.

Even Edmonton, whose core has 3 first overall picks and other high end prospects, will have issues if the team continues to lose. Getting Schultz was a coup, but the D core is still relatively weak and Dubnyk hasn't proven much yet. At least they have value to trade.

I don't know if Luongo to the Leafs is ideal for either party. I think Nonis should be able to sell Luongo on waiving seeing the success Roberto had after Nonis got him last time. However, Nonis has been Burke's right hand man the whole tenure. Right now he seems to be getting some credit from Leaf fans for being the de facto day to day GM and bring a primary on the Phaneuf deal, but he was also there for the Kessel trade too.

As a Canucks fan, there really isn't much that interests me from the Leafs. Obviously Rielly, Lupul, 1st round pick and Gardiner are interests, but the Leafs likely won't part with any of them. Otherwise, I just don't see much value in anything else the Leafs could offer. The rest of the prospects are second line/pairing longshots or worse. Bozak is not on the top two lines on practically any other team and is a UFA soon. I know Leafs fans will say Luongo will return less value, but I can't see him going for little to no value and that's pretty much all the Leafs have to offer right now.

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01-10-2013, 02:19 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Back to back president's trophy winners, and our boys have brought in a jennings. Yes, it's not a stanley cup, but I'd hardly consider the money wasted. Also, most of the teams had a serious shot at the cup the last few years, and are expected to moving forward. If we move Luongo to the Leafs, we want someone who can impact our roster back just as much as he has impacted ours here, and will impact the Leafs. No deal to be had otherwise.
Very true. Van has had very good past few seasons. In my mind the best team to play in the regular season over the past 3. But in the NHL its stanley cup or bust. Presidents and jennings are all well and good but the Cup is the CUP for a reason. Hardest trophy to win in sports (debatable). And when Luongo was starting he is worth every penny. I was more refering to when you have take a back seat to shnedier, his contract becomes a burden on the team.

Also thing to note, and i dnt mean to beat a dead horse, is that Luos contract and age makes the list of teams willing to shell out a resonable return very short. Toronto is probably at the top of the list as to teams that are willing and able to take on a player, and contract, like Luo's. Florida is on the list, but as you can see they are less willing to pay for it as thier spending spree last off season leaves them a bit handcuffed.

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01-10-2013, 02:19 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
If the Leafs were legitimately a Luongo away from being a Stanley Cup contender I would agree with you but they aren't.

Any team that has missed the playoffs for 7 years running cannot trade futures. It doesn't make any sense. They are not going to win the Cup this year or in the foreseeable future with Luongo, so they'd be better off rolling the dice on keeping their prospects and draft picks and hoping Reimer and Scrivens can carry the load at least in the short term. Some other goalie will be available next year or the year after if it doesn't pan out, maybe even Luongo at a cheaper price because the team he ends up going to ends up wanting to unload that albatross of a contract.

Slow and steady wins the Cup.
Having a top goalie in net for the next five years seems to be a lot better way of improving your chances than risking even more on the off chance next season he'll be cheaper or that some other top goalie will be available for less than what is being asked now.

If you're not willing to give up anything of value now, why would you be more inclined to do so in the future? Why do your best players resign when managements plan is to lose for the foreseeable future in order to build their team?

I do understand doing a rebuild ... but why do that if it's not necessary? Your suggestion of slow and steady makes sense, but the actual course of action you're suggesting is extremely unlikely to work and borders on praying for great players to just fall in your lap.

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01-10-2013, 02:20 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
In order to attain that level of goaltending the Leafs would need to trade 10 1st round picks.
Not if you develop them.

Which I think is what he's getting at.

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01-10-2013, 02:23 PM
  #980
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It was my understanding that a 3rd line center is exactly what Van needs. No?

Which is why every proposal contains bozak. a guy who seems like a natural 3rd line player.
Bozak, apart from playing sheltered minutes in TO with two PPG wingers, is also an upcoming UFA. He may be able to slot in our 3C spot, or he might get slaughtered playing a checking role without 1st line wingers to bolster him.

I have no interest in Bozak, and hopefully Gillis doesn't either.

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01-10-2013, 02:23 PM
  #981
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My interest in Philadelphia's roster begins and ends with their forwards. I like the defense, but honestly, no ones a big improvement on our top 4, and unless there is someone I've missed making 2 or less million per season, an 8 million + bottom pairing doesn't appeal to me. That, of course, is just me.

That being said, Simmonds or Voracek I'd think we could make a deal for easily. Hartnell or Briere or Giroux of course too, but let's not get carried away here, I see the veteran leadership group being harder for Flyers brass to move.

Too bad this wasn't unfolding last season...what you got for Carter would have been great, ditto Richards, or either of them to us, and there wouldn't be the burden of Bryzgalov weighing in on the deal yet.

I actually think some of what the Flyers have to offer is better then any other team, but my only concern is whether they are willing to give up what we'd want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayB View Post
Maybe:

Toronto give Gardiner/Phanuef to Philly, Philly give tons of picks and one byout to Vancouver, Vancks give Luongo to Toronto... Nice. Just speculation but i would love Phaneuf.
So, Flyers get Phaneuf or Gardiner, Leafs get Luongo, Canucks get...picks and a buyout contract? If Gardiner or Phaneuf were on the table, we'd scoop them ourselves and cut the Flyers right out of the deal.

Plus, the Flyers don't have enough picks to get Luongo from us this year.

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01-10-2013, 02:24 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Not if you develop them.

Which I think is what he's getting at.
In Vancouver's case it took 6 years for Schneider to develop as a starting goalie. Had he not been playing behind a top notch vet like Luongo I question whether he would have survived if thrown in as a starter early in his career. Having an established vet gives you a way better chance of having a goalie prospect develop into a good starter. There are of course exceptions like Price and Quick but these guys are rare.

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01-10-2013, 02:26 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
My interest in Philadelphia's roster begins and ends with their forwards. I like the defense, but honestly, no ones a big improvement on our top 4, and unless there is someone I've missed making 2 or less million per season, an 8 million + bottom pairing doesn't appeal to me. That, of course, is just me.

That being said, Simmonds or Voracek I'd think we could make a deal for easily. Hartnell or Briere or Giroux of course too, but let's not get carried away here, I see the veteran leadership group being harder for Flyers brass to move.

Too bad this wasn't unfolding last season...what you got for Carter would have been great, ditto Richards, or either of them to us, and there wouldn't be the burden of Bryzgalov weighing in on the deal yet.

I actually think some of what the Flyers have to offer is better then any other team, but my only concern is whether they are willing to give up what we'd want.



So, Flyers get Phaneuf or Gardiner, Leafs get Luongo, Canucks get...picks and a buyout contract? If Gardiner or Phaneuf were on the table, we'd scoop them ourselves and cut the Flyers right out of the deal.

Plus, the Flyers don't have enough picks to get Luongo from us this year.
Giroux's def not going anywhere. We have to keep him there just so he can pwn crosby. Hartnell is the heart of the team. I think the team drastically changes without him.

I could see them parting with Briere even though he's a good player. I don't think they'll get rid of couturier but i can hope. I think Lu will win a cup with that flyers O. better chance than in van.

i'd love to see lu shut down crosby. i think malkin has his number though.

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01-10-2013, 02:29 PM
  #984
Lebda Snipes
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bozak, apart from playing sheltered minutes in TO with two PPG wingers, is also an upcoming UFA. He may be able to slot in our 3C spot, or he might get slaughtered playing a checking role without 1st line wingers to bolster him.

I have no interest in Bozak, and hopefully Gillis doesn't either.

Sheltered Minutes? the guy has played on our 1st line the past few seasons. He SHOULD be getting sheltered minutes, but instead is playing against other teams top units. He was was outmatched and outclassed every game lining up against the opposing 1C. Not only that he played the PP too. He played alot more minutes than his skill dictates. And although his stats were nothing special, and in some cases not very good, he is much better player for it. A 3rd line spot is exactly where bozak belongs, and percisley the player Van should be looking at.

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01-10-2013, 02:31 PM
  #985
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Very true. Van has had very good past few seasons. In my mind the best team to play in the regular season over the past 3. But in the NHL its stanley cup or bust. Presidents and jennings are all well and good but the Cup is the CUP for a reason. Hardest trophy to win in sports (debatable). And when Luongo was starting he is worth every penny. I was more refering to when you have take a back seat to shnedier, his contract becomes a burden on the team.

Also thing to note, and i dnt mean to beat a dead horse, is that Luos contract and age makes the list of teams willing to shell out a resonable return very short. Toronto is probably at the top of the list as to teams that are willing and able to take on a player, and contract, like Luo's. Florida is on the list, but as you can see they are less willing to pay for it as thier spending spree last off season leaves them a bit handcuffed.
True enough about Stanley or bust. But in what way does a third line center and prospects/picks help us win a cup more so then our starting goaltender during the best chance to win the cup since 1994? Yes, the argument can be made that Luongo is now our back up with Schneider being lead...but what if he falters, or is injured? Then what. Luongo becomes our go to again. If we don't get something to help us the same amount, why move him at all? Why move a player for less then the impact he will have on the team if there aren't internal pressures due to salary or a trade demand? He said he's happy to be back here, same as Nonis said he won't trade Gardiner lightly (no mention of Kessel in that speech btw).

The contract will burn us if he retires early as bad as anyone, in fact, worse then anyone. Let's say he retires in 5 years (won't happen, but for arguments sake)...it's like a 1.4 cap hit for that long, and we get something like 3.5 for at least two years here, maybe even three depending on how its calculated for the lock out year.

He isn't the kind of guy to play longer then he's wanted to, look at his attitude with the possibility of being dealt. He won't syphon cap space from a team that has a better solution lined up if he isn't asked to.

Age is fair enough, but what about Brad Richards? The media, and probably more then one Leafs fan, were peeing themselves waiting for him to sign in Toronto. He's a year younger then Lu. Contract you can argue the merits of, but age only becomes a concern when it's to the Leafs benefit to point it out. Sundin was older, we signed him for more then Luongo, and look at the impact he had. He made Kesler into a second line player under his leadership. He pushed the Sedins up to a whole new level, and indirectly helped Vignault put Burrows with him. Age certainly doesn't make a player less valuable to the degree it's being thrown around here.

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01-10-2013, 02:31 PM
  #986
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Completely disagree. Vancouver could still hold onto two goalies and be a contender for the cup. We're just a *better* team if we can re-allocate Luongo to obtain return for player(s) that could help us.

However, unless Toronto does something with their goaltending, they're pretty much guaranteed not to even make the playoffs.

So to me, Toronto needs Luongo a lot more than Vancouver needs to rid themselves of him.
Toronto could stay the course and likely draft in the top 5. There are no expectations that Toronto win this year, there are too many holes on the roster.

If Vancouver still has Lou by the time this season ends, what do you think his value will be? Especially if Schneider played most of the games and was the #1? If other teams barely wanted Luongo as a 33 year old with 10 years left after coming off a season as a #1, why would they want to pay more for him as a 34 year old with 9 years left after coming off a season as a #2 (albeit a good one that could easily be a #1)?

Unless Vancouver plans on keeping both goalies longterm, or trading Schneider and going with Luongo longterm. Then the pressure is really on them to move him now while his already low value is declining with time/age.

Toronto can afford to wait until the summer, draft with their high draft pick, and try and acquire a different temporary solution such as Backstrom, or maybe Elliot has another good year and Halak becomes available, etc etc.

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01-10-2013, 02:33 PM
  #987
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In Vancouver's case it took 6 years for Schneider to develop as a starting goalie. Had he not been playing behind a top notch vet like Luongo I question whether he would have survived if thrown in as a starter early in his career. Having an established vet gives you a way better chance of having a goalie prospect develop into a good starter. There are of course exceptions like Price and Quick but these guys are rare.
Quick also took 3 + years of 40+ games/year before he was a top tier goalie and he's behind some of the best defensive d-men and forwards in the NHL...

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01-10-2013, 02:33 PM
  #988
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So...you think Luongo votes yes to ratify the CBA?

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01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #989
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Giroux's def not going anywhere. We have to keep him there just so he can pwn crosby. Hartnell is the heart of the team. I think the team drastically changes without him.

I could see them parting with Briere even though he's a good player. I don't think they'll get rid of couturier but i can hope. I think Lu will win a cup with that flyers O. better chance than in van.

i'd love to see lu shut down crosby. i think malkin has his number though.
Bang on with Giroux and Hartnell, and I believe Briere, inspite of being injured, is also under a NMC, plus...his service to the team since signing.

I think B. Schenn and Couturier are hardsells too, as much so if not more, as their core forwards, but that's not my call.

Again Voracek and Simmonds command my attention as possible pieces coming back, they fit this team a whole lot better then Weiss or Bozak or Kulemin.

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01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #990
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Sheltered Minutes? the guy has played on our 1st line the past few seasons. He SHOULD be getting sheltered minutes, but instead is playing against other teams top units. He was was outmatched and outclassed every game lining up against the opposing 1C. Not only that he played the PP too. He played alot more minutes than his skill dictates. And although his stats were nothing special, and in some cases not very good, he is much better player for it. A 3rd line spot is exactly where bozak belongs, and percisley the player Van should be looking at.
In Van he would get zero PP time and would have to play a lot on the PK. His ideal spot would be as a 2C on a team with weak centre depth. No interest in him whatsoever. I'd rather try to fill the 3C spot with Schroeder, and if he isn't able to handle it, trade a couple of picks for one at the deadline. Or even sign a guy like Arnott for free. He's way more valuable to Toronto than he ever would be to us.

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01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #991
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So...you think Luongo votes yes to ratify the CBA?
I think he just wants to play hockey actually

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01-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #992
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Toronto could stay the course and likely draft in the top 5. There are no expectations that Toronto win this year, there are too many holes on the roster.

If Vancouver still has Lou by the time this season ends, what do you think his value will be? Especially if Schneider played most of the games and was the #1? If other teams barely wanted Luongo as a 33 year old with 10 years left after coming off a season as a #1, why would they want to pay more for him as a 34 year old with 9 years left after coming off a season as a #2 (albeit a good one that could easily be a #1)?

Unless Vancouver plans on keeping both goalies longterm, or trading Schneider and going with Luongo longterm. Then the pressure is really on them to move him now while his already low value is declining with time/age.

Toronto can afford to wait until the summer, draft with their high draft pick, and try and acquire a different temporary solution such as Backstrom, or maybe Elliot has another good year and Halak becomes available, etc etc.
No offence. But I hear the same thing every year from Leaf fans about all the goalies that will be available next year. Guess what? Most of those guys re-sign with their club or the older established guys like Vokoun etc sign with teams that they think they have a shot with winning with. In the end, the crop of goalies who are available are marginal at best.

And, if we risk losing out on Bozak by waiting longer, I don't see that as a big risk.


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01-10-2013, 02:39 PM
  #993
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Grossman was just awful at the playoffs...

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01-10-2013, 02:39 PM
  #994
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Bang on with Giroux and Hartnell, and I believe Briere, inspite of being injured, is also under a NMC, plus...his service to the team since signing.

I think B. Schenn and Couturier are hardsells too, as much so if not more, as their core forwards, but that's not my call.

Again Voracek and Simmonds command my attention as possible pieces coming back, they fit this team a whole lot better then Weiss or Bozak or Kulemin.
Highly doubt Philly even entertains trading either of them. This is lunacy imo.

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01-10-2013, 02:46 PM
  #995
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No offence. But I hear the same thing every year from Leaf fans about all the goalies that will be available next year. Guess what? Most of those guys re-sign with their club or the older established guys like Vokoun etc sign with teams that they think they have a shot with winning with. In the end, the crop of goalies who are available are marginal at best.
I was going to say something similar. There are certainly no guarantees that a decent goalie with less pay and shorter contract will even become available. And if there is, I don't think a team that just tanked yet another year away under new ownership and management would be high on the priority list.

With that said, I agree that if the idea is to rebuild and not make the playoffs anyway, then getting Luongo is perhaps not the best choice. On one hand he makes them a better team which might help get them into the playoffs and at least generate some interest in players to sign in Toronto, but on the other hand Toronto would be giving up some talent in exchange, it hurts their draft position, and sometimes there is something good about a young goalie developing along with a young team together.

From the words of the press conference, I don't think it is the desire of Nonis or the ownership to blow the team up and start again. So if that is the decision they've made and they just want to retool, then getting Luongo is one of the best things Toronto can do at this point... as long as it doesn't destroy the future by taking blue chip prospects out of their system such as Gardiner. (Which Toronto isn't going to do since he's both one of their best prospects as well as a d-man which is a position they badly need bolstering in)

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01-10-2013, 02:46 PM
  #996
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Having a top goalie in net for the next five years seems to be a lot better way of improving your chances than risking even more on the off chance next season he'll be cheaper or that some other top goalie will be available for less than what is being asked now.

If you're not willing to give up anything of value now, why would you be more inclined to do so in the future? Why do your best players resign when managements plan is to lose for the foreseeable future in order to build their team?

I do understand doing a rebuild ... but why do that if it's not necessary? Your suggestion of slow and steady makes sense, but the actual course of action you're suggesting is extremely unlikely to work and borders on praying for great players to just fall in your lap.
For the record I am not completely against the Leafs getting Luongo. But not if they have to give more than market value for him. Any one of Gardiner, Rielly or the Leafs 1st rounder this year would be a deal breaker for me. Luongo and his contract do not warrant any of those types of assets in return.

Also for the record I would not be completely unwilling to part with those types of assets when and if the time was right and if a case could be made that the Leafs were anywhere close to competing for a Championship. That will not be the case in the near future so I see no reason to give away assets even though I fully acknowledge that they may never turn out to what they are hyped to be at this point in time.

Finally, rebuilding on the fly has been the Leafs strategy for the better part of the last 40 years and for the most part has been an epic and colossal failure and has produced a grand total of zero Stanley Cups. That to me is reason enough to attempt a different approach. I'm not saying that you need a complete Oilers style rebuild, but at the very least more of a focus should be placed on drafting and developing rather than building through trades and free agency. There have been way more recent Cup winners that have built their teams primarily through the draft than through free agency and trades.

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01-10-2013, 02:50 PM
  #997
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Quick also took 3 + years of 40+ games/year before he was a top tier goalie and he's behind some of the best defensive d-men and forwards in the NHL...
He also had one season in the ECHL, 2 seasons in the AHL = 6 years as well.

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01-10-2013, 02:53 PM
  #998
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In Vancouver's case it took 6 years for Schneider to develop as a starting goalie. Had he not been playing behind a top notch vet like Luongo I question whether he would have survived if thrown in as a starter early in his career. Having an established vet gives you a way better chance of having a goalie prospect develop into a good starter. There are of course exceptions like Price and Quick but these guys are rare.
I agree, I'm all for getting a veteran at least as a backup mentor.

Still doesn't mean giving up a ton of youth for Luongo makes sense though.

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01-10-2013, 02:54 PM
  #999
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