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Old
01-10-2013, 04:22 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
I'm still one of the ones who thinks last season was a one-off. There were enough asterisks to last season's result that I'm not ready to say anyone's prediction on the team this year is likely to become reality. Jury's out for me, but I hate pessimists.
Couldn't agree more...

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01-10-2013, 04:34 PM
  #77
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I don't mind negativity as long as the schlub journalist actually analyzes hockey. One throwaway line about a given player is precisely the opposite of that.

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01-10-2013, 04:37 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
So if he would have been canned for Muller we would have tanked and got great prospects? You're contradicting yourself.

Martin did the best he could with the horses he had. He implemented a boring system that won more games than it lost and was very successful in the playoffs given that we didn't have the superstars of the teams we eliminated. I enjoy defensive systemic hockey, but I can certainly understand how most people wouldn't.

If you mean that he was the hurdle to tanking, then we agree. We just don't agree on tanking, and that's perfectly fine.
Muller would have been a higher risk because he would be turning the team in an entirely different direction. No more slow plodding games where the difference is always one goal and you hang on till the last minute. He would have been the risk that Therrien will be this season, we would have to wait and see the results.

Yes Martin did the best he could because that is all he could do. He is outdated and his style is nothing special, you know what you will get with Martin and that will be mediocre. Oh I am sure you will jump to the 09-10 season and point at the playoff run but we both know that was all Halak and Martin was barely concious on the bench. Eeking into the playoffs and your goalie getting hot is not a sign of good coaching.

More like hurdle to success. He had the team playing at such a mediocre level we would have ended up in the dead zone of either 1st round exit or mid teens draft pick. He was truly poison for the team, you could see it when Muller left and in the responses of the players when he was here.

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01-10-2013, 04:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
So if he would have been canned for Muller we would have tanked and got great prospects? You're contradicting yourself.

Martin did the best he could with the horses he had. He implemented a boring system that won more games than it lost and was very successful in the playoffs given that we didn't have the superstars of the teams we eliminated. I enjoy defensive systemic hockey, but I can certainly understand how most people wouldn't.

If you mean that he was the hurdle to tanking, then we agree. We just don't agree on tanking, and that's perfectly fine.
Defensive systemic hockey works well to hide the deficiencies of bad teams but the reality is that a bad team can't win it all. It gave us the best shot at hiding our deficiencies to placate fans with no long term vision who think they're not gonna be alive to see another season. It also takes a dump on developping young players which helps perpetuating mediocrity. A lot of people on this board seem to love mediocrity so Martin was a hit with that crowd.

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01-10-2013, 04:46 PM
  #80
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Plenty of good teams play "defensive, systematic hockey." Last year teams like the Preds, Blues and Coyotes were much more successful than run and gun teams. You can argue the Kings played "defensive, systematic hockey" too, considering they emphasized two way play from their forwards and puck possession over dazzling skill and putting up numbers.

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01-10-2013, 04:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Plenty of good teams play "defensive, systematic hockey." Last year teams like the Preds, Blues and Coyotes were much more successful than run and gun teams. You can argue the Kings played "defensive, systematic hockey" too, considering they emphasized two way play from their forwards and puck possession over dazzling skill and putting up numbers.
I don't know if you were adressing me, I will assume that you did, but please don't infer things i didn't mean.

I never said only bad teams play defensive systems. I said good defensive systems hide flaws in bad teams. Very very different.

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01-10-2013, 05:04 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't know if you were adressing me, I will assume that you did, but please don't infer things i didn't mean.

I never said only bad teams play defensive systems. I said good defensive systems hide flaws in bad teams. Very very different.
Fair enough, I thought you were implying that the only reason to ever use a system like Martin's is to hide the flaws in a bad thing.

Martin isn't a great coach but I still think he's a better coach than Therrien. I hope I'm wrong, but the numbers concern me.

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01-10-2013, 05:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Fair enough, I thought you were implying that the only reason to ever use a system like Martin's is to hide the flaws in a bad thing.

Martin isn't a great coach but I still think he's a better coach than Therrien. I hope I'm wrong, but the numbers concern me.
This would be excellent news for us. Therrien was a pretty good tank commander in 2006 after all.

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01-10-2013, 05:55 PM
  #84
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Unless Price gets injured, with insane parity with only 48 games, we can finish anywhere just like any other teams* in the league.






*teams don't include Columbus

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01-10-2013, 06:28 PM
  #85
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Fair enough, I thought you were implying that the only reason to ever use a system like Martin's is to hide the flaws in a bad thing.

Martin isn't a great coach but I still think he's a better coach than Therrien. I hope I'm wrong, but the numbers concern me.
I feel bad for Bergevin who had the choice between Therrien, Crawford and Hartley. Not the cream of the crop...

That said, one thing i like about Therrien is that I believe he will give players with talent a chance to shine and won't hinder them with a system that won't make us win it all anyway.

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01-10-2013, 06:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
I'm surprised at all this hatred and what a title for a thread.

I didn't even click on the link but I believe what everyone here is saying, but...Brian Wilde is always so cheerful and full of smiles (the opposite of Markov). I wouldn't expect Brian Wilde to be so positive 24hrs a day...and if he said something negative about the Habs it can be taken with a grain of salt since I really feel that he loves our Habs. He always seems so passionate about Les Canadiens. He should be allowed to say what he wants to say (it would be boring if all he did was say positive things over and over again... for example it would be different coming from a Leaf or Bruin fan).

And a thread titled ''I hate Markov'' would probably get a thread starter banned for life around here! So why such an ugly title for Brian Wilde. Imo, he doesn't deserve such a title for such a cheerful guy...he makes it so interesting to watch CTV sports...you can pick on Randy Tieman instead since he is only interested in football, baseball and hot dogs...he yawns when he has to talk about our Habs...never seems interested/passionate ; Brian Wilde on the other hand is so passionate about his/our Habs).

I like Brian Wilde and I am a true Hab fan.
You and I clearly are talking about different Brian Wildes. At one point in time he was fine, but the past couple of seasons, he's really started to wander into Jack Todd territory. That's a bit of an extreme example, he's not close to Todd in terms of pessimism (plus he isn't two-faced like Todd too), but the only good things he ever says are in the "it's about time" or "that's a rarity" tense. Look at his last comment about Kaberle's shape in camp. Fine example.

My reaction to Wilde's article isn't a knee-jerk thing either, I've felt like this about him for a long time. And I did follow him on Twitter in the first place because I did like him and it was nice to have a positive reporter, but he's gone the way of the Debbie Downer recently, so my preferred source of good articles on the Habs come from either some of you guys on here, or Engels/Lavoie. *cue the "Engels/Lavoie? And you say Wilde is bad?" comments*

Also, the only sports team Wilde is really passionate about is the Impact. He takes a very "whatever" stance on the Habs. He wouldn't have a job on a major network without covering them, which I'm sure is half the reason he does.


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Hate is such a strong word...

Wasn't there another thread similar to that one not long ago, likely started by the same member?
Nah, I rarely start threads, and usually they're just posting news articles. And yes, hate is a bit strong. But I use the term loosely so it didn't seem as harsh when I wrote it. The new title is much better in any case.


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Didn't recognize the name, no opinion if I love him or hate him. I must have seen him before, but never paid attention. But now I'm aware he exists, anyway. Thanks?
I'm sure most of my posts come from GDTs, so if I'm ever seen anywhere, it's there. Probably why my post count hasn't moved much this year.


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I have the same expectations. Do you hate me?
Well you're not getting a Christmas card next Christmas, that's for sure.


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OP is Brian Wilde.
It's close. I'm about 50 pounds heavier, but just as nerdy.

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01-10-2013, 07:53 PM
  #87
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Defensive systemic hockey works well to hide the deficiencies of bad teams but the reality is that a bad team can't win it all. It gave us the best shot at hiding our deficiencies to placate fans with no long term vision who think they're not gonna be alive to see another season. It also takes a dump on developping young players which helps perpetuating mediocrity. A lot of people on this board seem to love mediocrity so Martin was a hit with that crowd.
You had me agreeing with you until the people like mediocrity and the insinuation that young players' development is hindered in a defensive system. I think they actually get better learning structure and can extend their careers that way. And I can't speak for others, but what I liked isn't mediocrity, it's that that for a couple years and especially during that run, there was a small part of me that thought maybe we're actually going to be that Cinderella story. The Habs had no business winning in 86 and arguably in 93 and this was the closest I've felt since then (well 93 I was a bit young in 86) to believing we actually had a chance. That's why I liked Martin. We beat Ovechkin and Crosby by outsmarting them (and yes Halak was a HUGE part of that). But the buzz it created and to see the city the way it was....It had been too long. And Martin brought that back, if only for a few years. Some of my best memories as a Habs fan are from when he was the coach.

Having said that, I'm happy about the pick we got and I'm happy we are going in a new direction. That's exciting in its own right. Though I can't say I have fond memories of Therrien, but people learn from past mistakes so we'll see.


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01-10-2013, 07:58 PM
  #88
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You had me agreeing with you until the people like mediocrity thing. I can't speak for others, but what I liked is that for a couple years and especially during that run, there was a small part of me that thought maybe we're actually going to be that Cinderella story. The Habs had no business winning in 86 and arguably in 93 and this was the closest I've felt since then (well 93 I was a bit young in 86) to believing we actually had a chance. That's why I liked Martin. We beat Ovechkin and Crosby by outsmarting them (and yes Halak was a HUGE part of that). But the buzz it created and to see the city the way it was....It had been too long. And Martin brought that back, if only for a few years. Some of my best memories as a Habs fan are from when he was the coach.
I think you vastly underestimate the 86 and 93 teams. Especially the 93 team. They finished with 102 pts good for 6th overall and they had Roy. They were a really good team.

EDIT: the 86 team was 7th overall. Not as good but pretty decent.

Quote:
Having said that, I'm happy about the pick we got and I'm happy we are going in a new direction. That's exciting in its own right. Though I can't say I have fond memories of Therrien, but people learn so we'll see.
I'm not the biggest fan of Therrien either but I think he'll be better for young players with talent like Emelin, Eller, Diaz, Galchenyuk.

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01-10-2013, 08:03 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I think you vastly underestimate the 86 and 93 teams. Especially the 93 team. They finished with 102 pts good for 6th overall and they had Roy. They were a really good team.

EDIT: the 86 team was 7th overall. Not as good but pretty decent.



I'm not the biggest fan of Therrien either but I think he'll be better for young players with talent like Emelin, Eller, Diaz, Galchenyuk.
Yeah I meant more '86. They finished with 87 points and Roy was a rookie. And in 93 there was the whole overtime thing and McSorley's illegal curve. But yeah they did have a better team than the teams Martin coached no doubt.

And yeah I hear he doesn't hesitate to play the young guys. So that's good. I know a lot of people on here like to see the young players get a chance. I might be a little old-school when it comes to that. The League has changed a lot in the last 5-6 years and youth is becoming more and more important.

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01-10-2013, 08:12 PM
  #90
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If someones expects the habs to suck again this year then why are you guys watching them? Just stop or do you enjoy seeing them losing? Do you feel complete when you are right about something?

Being a fan is not about being realistic it's about dreaming and hoping that your team wins the cup. If you are already a loser before it even starts then you are not a true fan just someone that wants to prove he is smart by saying i told you so that they would suck again. What do you gain by keeping your expectations low?

We are passionate and love this sport , please continue to be delusional to live in a fantasy world where the habs are the best team in the league like 40 years ago. Where Max Paciorretty is an elite winger better than any other power forward. We need those fantasy in our lives. So what if we are huge homers we love hockey but we love the habs more, i want to see them win and i whish they do it this year. Statistics and whatever are not the only parameter there are human beings and with human beings nothing is ever decided before it,s over.

Did the habs suck last year? Yes they did? Was i happy about it hell no i hate when my team lose just as much as i hate losing.

Every year i say the habs are finishing first and winning the cup that's why i'm watching this sport not to see them tank.

For those who don't think we are making the playoffs this year do yourself a favor and let common sense fly away for a second, just remember why you love this team and then dream.

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01-10-2013, 08:21 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
If someones expects the habs to suck again this year then why are you guys watching them? Just stop or do you enjoy seeing them losing? Do you feel complete when you are right about something?

Being a fan is not about being realistic it's about dreaming and hoping that your team wins the cup. If you are already a loser before it even starts then you are not a true fan just someone that wants to prove he is smart by saying i told you so that they would suck again. What do you gain by keeping your expectations low?

We are passionate and love this sport , please continue to be delusional to live in a fantasy world where the habs are the best team in the league like 40 years ago. Where Max Paciorretty is an elite winger better than any other power forward. We need those fantasy in our lives. So what if we are huge homers we love hockey but we love the habs more, i want to see them win and i whish they do it this year. Statistics and whatever are not the only parameter there are human beings and with human beings nothing is ever decided before it,s over.

Did the habs suck last year? Yes they did? Was i happy about it hell no i hate when my team lose just as much as i hate losing.

Every year i say the habs are finishing first and winning the cup that's why i'm watching this sport not to see them tank.

For those who don't think we are making the playoffs this year do yourself a favor and let common sense fly away for a second, just remember why you love this team and then dream.
We are all cheering for our team to win. However, some of us don't believe in being irrationally optimistic. We see our team on paper, we compare it to other teams in the league, and we make assessments based on what we think is the likely outcome. When the game is on television do we sit and root for our team to lose? No, not unless we are already mathematically eliminated from the play-offs. We root for our team to overcome the odds, to transcend their projected placing, not only in our minds, but in the media, by the pundits, by their opposition, and in the end, when all is settled and the outcome has been determined. If we lose, we can reduce the sting of that loss, the anger of that loss, by being prepared for it, because it doesn't swell from some region beyond our expectations, it is what we thought was the likely outcome, and we entertain the dreams of a superstar in the draft, another soldier on our team, replete with skill, desire and the will to win, to bring us out of this cycle of mediocrity and into this realm of expectation to win, to be the team other teams fear, other fans are jealous of, the one that puts an anxious tingling in our chests and nervous cloud in our guts, the one with a possibility of glory.

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01-10-2013, 08:30 PM
  #92
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You can be rational when the game is over but when the game is on whoever the other team is you want them to win. When we are 8th seed and face the 1st seed we still whish them to win when the game is playing if your are already beaten then you don't understand sport and the magic in it. the better team don't always win.

Analyse what you, want nobody knows what will happen on a shortened year like this we have professional players just like any other team we have young players learning and getting better we ahev players waiting to explode, the habs can beat anybody in the league i'm sure about it will they? History will tell us in the meantime i will keep dreaming for a cup this year because this is what it's all about.


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01-10-2013, 08:32 PM
  #93
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You can be rational when the game is over but when the game is on whoever the other team is you want them to win. When we are 8th seed and face the 1st seed we still whish them to win when the game is playing if your are already beaten then you don't understand sport and the magic in it. the better team don't always win.
The game isn't on, is it? We all will be cheering for the Habs. That doesn't mean we can't reasonably expect that a team who has Bourque as a feature on the 2nd line won't be capable of winning the cup.

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01-10-2013, 09:55 PM
  #94
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Let's not be too sensitive here. I've read the article and I think he's dead on. Of course we couldn't count on Gionta and Markov for most of the season last year but even with that. Montreal isn't a playoff team right now and you know what? It's allright like that. 2013 is a loaded draft, let's built for the future. The team is too fuc**d up right now anyway with Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle.

I'll be happy if this team can somewhat manage to makes the playoff but let's be realistic. It is not a playoff lineup. I always thought from the beginning that this season would be a transition one. New coach, new gm. They'll see what they're dealing with and hopefully re adjust this summer by giving the team to the kids. My two cents.

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01-10-2013, 10:18 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
If someones expects the habs to suck again this year then why are you guys watching them? Just stop or do you enjoy seeing them losing? Do you feel complete when you are right about something?
Because those of us who want to see a Stanley Cup one day look forward to the development of young players like Lars Eller, PK Subban and Alexei Emelin.

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01-10-2013, 11:50 PM
  #96
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Let's not be too sensitive here. I've read the article and I think he's dead on. Of course we couldn't count on Gionta and Markov for most of the season last year but even with that. Montreal isn't a playoff team right now and you know what? It's allright like that. 2013 is a loaded draft, let's built for the future. The team is too fuc**d up right now anyway with Gomez, Bourque, Kaberle.

I'll be happy if this team can somewhat manage to makes the playoff but let's be realistic. It is not a playoff lineup. I always thought from the beginning that this season would be a transition one. New coach, new gm. They'll see what they're dealing with and hopefully re adjust this summer by giving the team to the kids. My two cents.
We have four decent lines. I'd be shocked if this team didn't make the playoffs. Markov would have to get hurt... oh nevermind

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01-11-2013, 12:10 AM
  #97
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mediocre roster
+
minimal nhl-ready depth
+
injury cursed organization
+
new coach/system
+
shortened training camp
=
very little room for error.

We're a 6-10th place roster with the cards stacked against us.

All I hope is that we have either an excessively negative season (i.e another bottom-of-conference/league finish) or an excessively positive season (everything goes right & we secure a top-2 conference seeding, ensuring at least 2 rounds of home-ice in the playoffs).


worst case is that we do well enough to entice MB to either stand-still or worse, trade assets for short-term reinforcements by the deadline, and then end up just missing or out in the first round of the playoffs.


I hope that, however the season goes, MB stays firmly focused on a long term plan, & any in-season trade is of the moving unwanted contracts for depth players/picks variety.

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01-11-2013, 12:27 AM
  #98
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We have four decent lines. I'd be shocked if this team didn't make the playoffs. Markov would have to get hurt... oh nevermind
Some of you are out to lunch.

Here are some facts:

- Our tallest dman is Alexei Emelin is 6'2" and he has a plate in his head; we don't have a single individual on our D-squad who could shop at big and tall or impose the law against any team's tough guys who played tricks on our guys.

- We don't have an enforcer at any position. We didn't resign Brad Staubitz, and we can't even call up Alex Henry anymore.

- Our best offensive forward, Max Pacioretty, was 38th in the league in points and 18th in goals scored.

- We have three top-4 dmen: Subban, Markov, and Gorges. If a single one gets injured, our team will disintegrate.

- We don't have a good 2-way winger to go on the Markov-Gionta shutdown line.

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01-11-2013, 12:44 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Some of you are out to lunch.

Here are some facts:

- Our tallest dman is Alexei Emelin is 6'2" and he has a plate in his head; we don't have a single individual on our D-squad who could shop at big and tall or impose the law against any team's tough guys who played tricks on our guys.

- We don't have an enforcer at any position. We didn't resign Brad Staubitz, and we can't even call up Alex Henry anymore.

- Our best offensive forward, Max Pacioretty, was 38th in the league in points and 18th in goals scored.

- We have three top-4 dmen: Subban, Markov, and Gorges. If a single one gets injured, our team will disintegrate.

- We don't have a good 2-way winger to go on the Markov-Gionta shutdown line.
Prust is undersized for a regular fighter and isn't quite prime-Laraque there but he's a technically skilled fighter and can hold his own against all but the high end goons, who we should be ignoring anyway. Moen and White can also pick at middleweights. This isn't a team that will win every fight but for those of you who care about such things, the Habs should be fighting more regularly than they did before the end of last year.

Our defense is very undersized but fighting is the least of the problems there, you don't want your top 4 defenders in the box anyway. Leave that to the grinders.

As far as top 4 defenders go there's a possibility one of Emelin, Diaz or Kaberle step up. Of course there's an even greater possibility that Markov has fallen off ala Kaberle at which point our draft pick will be looking very nice.

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01-11-2013, 04:16 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
You and I clearly are talking about different Brian Wildes. At one point in time he was fine, but the past couple of seasons, he's really started to wander into Jack Todd territory. That's a bit of an extreme example, he's not close to Todd in terms of pessimism (plus he isn't two-faced like Todd too), but the only good things he ever says are in the "it's about time" or "that's a rarity" tense. Look at his last comment about Kaberle's shape in camp. Fine example.

My reaction to Wilde's article isn't a knee-jerk thing either, I've felt like this about him for a long time. And I did follow him on Twitter in the first place because I did like him and it was nice to have a positive reporter, but he's gone the way of the Debbie Downer recently, so my preferred source of good articles on the Habs come from either some of you guys on here, or Engels/Lavoie. *cue the "Engels/Lavoie? And you say Wilde is bad?" comments*

Also, the only sports team Wilde is really passionate about is the Impact. He takes a very "whatever" stance on the Habs. He wouldn't have a job on a major network without covering them, which I'm sure is half the reason he does.
Well, I definitely like your reply, thanks.
I'll definitely pay more attention to Brian Wilde and to what you were saying (in the above). The last time I paid major attention to Brian Wilde (pertinent to hockey talk...lockout) was around end of Nov-December when Brian looked so excited/happy about the possibility of hockey coming back very soon (we still had to wait of course after that...many reporters made false alarms...I don't blame any of them). But he looked so happy.... but now that hockey is back I'll pay even more attention to how he is... I believe you but I swear the Brian Wilde I see is always cheerful! (8 or 9 out of 10 times!)

Randy Tieman is the one who seems disinterested/bored in our Habs, imo (Tieman seems more interested in football or his ''Randy's rookies'' mini-show/segment during the CTV sports! he actually smiles a lot during his ''Randy's rookies''!!)...Wilde adds more color and excitement vs Tieman when it comes to our Habs imo (this is what makes me believe he's really into our Habs...positive or negative), but I'll get a chance to see more of Brian now since hockey is back (will pay more attention to every detail! and come back here and report!!).

But you know...in the end if he is a Hab fan...I'm not that upset with a Hab fan saying this or that as long as that person is not secretly a Bruin or Leaf fan just bashing our Habs! and we can't all share the same opinion, but of course seeing the positive is better than always seeing the negative! (ex: if our Habs do end up at the bottom...there's a light at the end of the tunnel in that we get a star prospect in exchange for a miserable season filled with injuries and/or many losses). For me the worst case scenario is barely missing the playoffs and/or losing badly in the 1st Rnd (we don't get a top 5 or top 10 pick and our Habs are eliminated early...this would get me down...at least last year's miserable season was rewarded with a Galchenyuk).

Cheers!


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 01-11-2013 at 04:23 AM.
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