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Old
01-10-2013, 10:44 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Silfverberg.
This.

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01-10-2013, 10:50 PM
  #602
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Spezza will be our next captain, no questions about it.

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01-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #603
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I concur, Spezza will be our next captain.

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01-10-2013, 11:14 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Like really? Spezza is inconsistent? He is over a ppg on his CAREER! He is 6th among all active players.

Here are the active top 10 in points per game:

1. Sidney Crosby 1.403
2. Evgeni Malkin 1.234
3. Jaromir Jagr 1.228
4. Alex Ovechkin 1.228
5. Teemu Selanne 1.048
6. Jason Spezza 1.016
7. Ilya Kovalchuk 1.008
8. Joe Thornton 1.001
9. Dany Heatley 0.988
10. Pavel Datsyuk 0.981

We don't really know about Spezza being "The Guy" without an extended playoff run? Where you been? We went to the finals! He tied for the Lead in points and led the playoffs in assists. He has always been a great playoff performer. Spezza is a "The Guy" player by any way you want to use the term. He is basically a guarantee of about a point per game or more every season. He needs to find a way not to miss 10-20 games in many seasons... aside from that he is tremendously consistent. One of the most consistently great forwards in the NHL.

And he is 29 years old coming off his best all around season and one of his most productive ones. Why are we worried about his production in 3 or 4 years? There is no reason to think it won't be very good? He isn't 34.

Just as an aside... If Spezza had been a UFA and wanted to max out his $$$ He gets more money than Parise or Suter did. If he wanted it he gets any contract he wants as the top UFA in that class.

Like seriously... he isn't Crosby or Malkin. He isn't Gretzky or Mario. What exactly do you expect Spezza to do to be the man? Does he need to win the Hart trophy to be the man? I don't think a lot of GMs would take Henrik Sedin over Spezza at centre.

He produces at a point per game with guys like Greening and even Regin and Condra on his line. Through superstars like Heatley or Alfie with him and he produces at more then a 100 point pace.

I wouldn't worry about him declining a ton for 5 or 6 years.

Like seriously what do you expect from Spezza? For his career so far... really his resume reads not to far off that of St. Louis, Alfredsson, Kovalchuk, Thornton, Datsyuk, Sundin. If he can put some health together until he is 35, 36, 37 he probably has a better than average shot at the Hall of Fame. Especially with Karlsson on our team.

What is it about Spezza? Do you have any idea how good he is? Top 6 in the NHL in ppg... FOUR TIMES. He has a season with more assists then games played! Do you realize how rare it is to have done that? It is rare like a 60 goal season for a playmaker to do that.

He just finished 4th in the scoring race, 6th in Hart voting LAST SEASON. What do we want from him? He was 2nd overall in the draft for a reason... and one of the best 2nd overall picks ever. He is freakishly talented and continually developing his overall game. He is a leader on the team. Watch him on the bench and on the ice talking with his teammates.

I guess if you definition of being "The Man" is to be prime Bobby Clarke or Bryan Trottier or Mark Messier. Or to be Malkin or Crosby then maybe Spezza has not been "The Man" and he might never be. If you definition of being the man is to still nearly get a ppg even in injury ridden seasons with terrible linemates and when healthy get a decent amount of Hart votes, be an eltie playmaker in the league while actually scoring 30+ goals himself... (something Thornton and Sedin can not do.

What are you expectations man?
Spezza is inconsistent. He is slightly below Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos in talent level but his numbers are way worse.

One game he is lights out jaw dropping good and defensively responsible, and the next he drags his feet and is only noticeable when he gives the puck away at the offensive blueline

I expect him to be:
1-more consistent offensively
2-not hurt the team when he's not producing
3-MOVE your feet on a consistent basis


In 2011-12, Spezza was more consistent than usual and likely had his best season of his career. Hopefully this continues but I'm not holding my breath.

This inconsistency + decline with age + injury concerns lead me to believe Spezza will be past his peak (not the same player as 2011-12) when the team is peaking.

That is all.


Can he be the #1 forward on a Stanley Cup Champion right now? Possibly, hard to say.

Will he be able to be the #1 forward on a Stanley Cup Champion in 4 years? I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
So your logic is we trade one of our two best players in the hopes we stink and get to draft in the top 3. This season is a perfect season to tank?

I look at the 48 game season... and I am sure the Murray's do... as a perfect season to play well at least and make the playoffs and develop some young players and maybe catch lightning in a bottle and go really deep in the playoffs.

Like do you actually think teams try to tank? This misconception that the Oilers or the Penguins tried to tank is hilarious. The Pens sucked because they had no money. They consistently tried to get better... signing UFAs like Gonchar and still sucked for another year. The Oiler's sign Khabibulin not to suck... they got Ryan Smyth so they could compete for the playoffs.

Teams rarely ever TRY TO TANK or Plan to. They are like us... when we dealt Fisher, Kelly etc. They realize they have too much money and ice time tied up in veteran players they can't win with and trade them to try to get some good futures and retool and hopefully be better the next year or the year after.

The idea of a team like the Senators coming off a very good season... where they massively improved, made the playoffs... fought really hard in the playoffs.. have probably a better roster this year overall despite being weak on defence... would trade their best player and other players to try to draft early is so asinine that it is just almost unbelievable. That anyone would think that was a SMART idea to improve the team long term is nuts.

Teams suck and draft super early because they suck... they have injuries... they lack talent, they make poor decisions. No NHL GM is sitting around thinking about Tanking. NONE. GMs, coaches, players have PRIDE. And they try to win. Do you know how you get better at winning? By winning. The Red Wings consistently stay good even as they keep losing stars to age because they have a winning mentality. The entire team learns to win. From the stars to role players. They lost Lidstrom and Stuart and Holmstrom and they will be weaker but I would not bet against them making the playoffs.

Any team that would try to make themselves worse before the season starts is a loser franchise... no players will want to go there and the players will learn how to lose. Let's go through the "tanking" teams... Oilers... constantly tried to improve each season and just failed to be able to do so... had the money and spent it too... they just could not find the way to win. Penguins... were going bankrupt... had to trade Jagr for nothing essentially because he made so much money. As soon as they had the ability to spend... they did and signed Gonchar and stuff but still sucked for another year. Chicago had a horrible Owner that blocked local TV and figured out he could make a decent profit with a crappy weak team with a low payroll. Owner dies.. son takes over and they bring in a winning philiosophy... With Wirtz sr. Chicago never wins a Cup even with their high picks.

The idea of trading Spezza now for even blue chip prospects and possible top 3 picks is monumentally stupid. Spezza is what you want from a top 3 pick. None of the top 3 picks may EVER be as good as Spezza will be for the next 5 years... they may be or might not be. You pick even first overall and you hope you get a player as good as Spezza has become and still is.

We basically have accomplished the PERFECT rebuild. We went from near max cap to the near bottom of the cap range... made the playoffs... went from having a terrible prospect pool to an exceptional one and managed to make the playoffs in the process and look to have a very good chance of doing the same this season. It is quite frankly near perfection... we don't have a SINGLE bad contract on the roster. We have some vets with expiring contracts. We kept the HEART and CORE of the very good teams we had with Spezza, Alfredsson, Neil, Phillips. We even selectively targetted Karlsson and moved up in the draft to specifially select him and now he is one of the top players in the entire world. It is a retool, rebuild that is next to none. And no luck was involved... we did not win a lottery to get Crosby... or luck into anything. We made shrewd moves... got quality vets with leadership and good abilities. Did not trade prospects before they could develop... like Greening for example. We did EVERYTHING right. Like almost anything. The Murray's are going at this PERFECTLY. We are in a cap environment and we have endless money to improve the team when the ideal options come available.. we don't need to grasp at straws...

Even if we don't happen to make the playoffs this season I don't see how we can not be close to it unless we have catastrophic injuries... And I see us with a chance at the Cup. At least a chance. If everything goes well..... we have tons of futures to trade at the deadline to improve weaknesses to the team. We are not really in win this season mode but you need to be ready to strike if we have lightning in a bottle and we are in a position to do that.

The idea of throwing away this progress by trading away Spezza is beyond stupidity. Do you know how long teams wait to get a true #1 centre? about as long as we waited to get a true #1 goalie. If you have one you don't get rid of him... you may not get another for a decade.
well maybe teams should do things differently... Calgary and Toronto attempting to make the playoffs every year is pathetic... their teams are a mess and they're not going anywhere.

Like I said, you need to get worse before you get better. Finishing 10th every season is not a recipe for success.

Tanking is useful.


And did you read my post?

Kuba + Foligno > Methot + Latendresse.
Cowen is gone.
The defense is worse than ever.

LOL @ deep playoff run.. do you really believe that




It's not just trading Spezza... it's trading Gonchar, Michalek, Anderson too.

Sure fire top 3 pick, sure fire first line player. There's your Spezza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Welp, the "Spezza for Granlund/Brodin+" thread on the trade boards got shut down and locked pretty quickly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
It was Minny fans vs MAK, MAK insisting what the Wilds needed, and their fans saying otherwise. They are also quite fond of Latendresse and were sad to see him go, so that's good news.
You guys dared me to do it, you should have helped me out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Yup ONLY 84 points. ONLY 4th in the NHL.

Ageism is funny. Alfredsson is OLD. He is not as good as he was at his peak (a sustained prime and peak he started when he was older than Spezza is now!)

But hey I look at the playoffs... I look at game changing abilities. Even this year's Alfie will be able to take over some games. Will be the best player on either team in some games... will have astounding shifts. Will be a game breaker.

Alfie won't be the Game-breaker he was in 2003 or 2007... but he will win games for us and do things no one else could do. Months or weeks at a time.. but for a game or a period or a shift... he can and will be a true difference maker. Because he is a HHOFer... and an elite superstar player.

Do you know who declines the slowest? Superstar, extremely talented players. They age the best. Want to gauge the historical staying power of players? The best ones play the longest careers and are the best players at 34,35,36,37,38,39,40,40+. Sure they decline. But they decline less and play longer.

Why are Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson still playing and actually very, very good?

A player of Spezza's pedigree, performance and ability is FAR less likely to decline in a huge way at a young age then lesser talents. There is little reason to expect a swift decline by Spezza... or to not expect him to be a very good player at 34, 35, 36. He is 29. As long as he can be healthy he will be good. Alfie had some injuries early and later in his career bit he was pretty darn good last year at an old age. If Spezza was committed to it I could see him playing effectively till he is almost 40. He is that talented and smart on the ice.

The fact Spezza seems to be constantly improving his overall game on both ends of the ice is a great sign. 29 and maybe his best overall year despite tremendous point production earlier on the Pizza line... that he can be at his best last season is a tremendous sign.

Like how insane is it to think that we should move on from a 29 year old superstar who may be coming off his best season?

St. Louis, Iginla are older and still exceptional. Talent dies slower then a normally skilled player.

Really Joe Thornton might be the most comparable player to Spezza and he is 34 and his last 5 seasons have been pretty decent. Not peak Thornton from the 3 years before the last 5 years, but still around a PPG and an elite 1st line centre. If that is Spezza the next 5 years then that is pretty great.
Iginla and St. Louis are far from what they once were. Very far.

That's exactly the type of decline I'm talking about with Spezza. For every Selanne there's a Gretzky, Iginla, St. Louis, etc... Most guys decline by age 35. There's no way around it.

If you think Spezza will be as good at 35 as he was in 2011-12, then I don't what to say.


Like Thornton, he's declined from peak Thornton. Why do you expect Spezza to be the same player? Crazy.

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Old
01-10-2013, 11:19 PM
  #605
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Kuba + Foligno > Methot + Latendresse

Based on?

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01-10-2013, 11:33 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelevel View Post
Kuba + Foligno > Methot + Latendresse

Based on?
Based on Kuba playing like a legit top pairing d-man (arguably #1 d-man caliber), Foligno scoring 43 even strength points (more than say, Ovechkin), Methot being worse than 6 Columbus d-men + Ryan Murray and Latendresse hardly playing at all in the last 3 years.

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01-10-2013, 11:37 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
Up until this point, the players you mentioned instead of Spezza haven't lead us to a Stanley Cup either. You also don't need to win the Cup to be a good captain as Alfie has shown throughout his career.
I agree, I just have more confidence in the leadership of Neil, Phillips and Alfie then I do in Spezza.

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01-10-2013, 11:40 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
I agree, I just have more confidence in the leadership of Neil, Phillips and Alfie then I do in Spezza.
I think Spezza is fine in terms of leadership. He takes a lot of crap from media/fans and hes still loyal to this organization. Very well spoken as well in front of the cameras. Says the right things everytime

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01-10-2013, 11:42 PM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Based on Kuba playing like a legit top pairing d-man (arguably #1 d-man caliber), Foligno scoring 43 even strength points (more than say, Ovechkin), Methot being worse than 6 Columbus d-men + Ryan Murray and Latendresse hardly playing at all in the last 3 years.
Methot had the 4th highest ES TOI on Columbus, and third until they traded for JJ. Also had the second highest SH TOI.

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01-10-2013, 11:44 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
Methot had the 4th highest ES TOI on Columbus, and third until they traded for JJ. Also had the second highest SH TOI.
I bet he never even watched him play and he made the assumption that Methot will be terrible.

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01-10-2013, 11:45 PM
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelevel View Post
Kuba + Foligno > Methot + Latendresse

Based on?
How about dollars?

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01-10-2013, 11:46 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
Methot had the 4th highest ES TOI on Columbus, and third until they traded for JJ. Also had the second highest SH TOI.
And overall?


Bottom line is they prefer

Johnson
Wisniewski
Nikitin
Tyutin
Aucoin (top 4 in Phoenix)
And probably Ryan Murray

over Methot. So...

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01-10-2013, 11:52 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
And overall?


Bottom line is they prefer

Johnson
Wisniewski
Nikitin
Tyutin
Aucoin (top 4 in Phoenix)
And probably Ryan Murray

over Methot. So...
No, bottom line is they preferred to deal Methot for Foligno, whom the preferred on there roster.

Columbus never just got rid of Methot because they preferred 6 other D then him, they dealt him to the Sens for Foligno. Ottawa obviously sees value in him, and he obviously has value, as he returned what many here consider a young second line tweener.

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01-10-2013, 11:54 PM
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Based on Kuba playing like a legit top pairing d-man (arguably #1 d-man caliber), Foligno scoring 43 even strength points (more than say, Ovechkin), Methot being worse than 6 Columbus d-men + Ryan Murray and Latendresse hardly playing at all in the last 3 years.
We haven't seen either of them play here yet. Latendresse is healthy. Methot will be on our first pairing playing with karlsson.
Come back at game 30 and type your post again. I'm predicting we're going to happy with these guys.

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01-10-2013, 11:56 PM
  #615
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I think it's pretty safe to say that their top-pairing was Tyutin and Nikitin, but it's difficult to argue that Methot was their 6th defenseman. The large white circle around his name doesn't exactly fill you with confidence though. But then, playing with Karlsson will certainly help his puck possession stats.

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01-11-2013, 12:30 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Officer Farva View Post
No, bottom line is they preferred to deal Methot for Foligno, whom the preferred on there roster.

Columbus never just got rid of Methot because they preferred 6 other D then him, they dealt him to the Sens for Foligno. Ottawa obviously sees value in him, and he obviously has value, as he returned what many here consider a young second line tweener.
Foligno is a 3rd liner for them. RJ "I vould like to buy an" Umberger and Brandon "Pass me that" Dubinsky are ahead on the LW depth chart. They don't value him that much I think.

Methot was barely/at times a top 4 on bad Columbus teams... He is not better than or close to 2011-12 Kuba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelevel View Post
We haven't seen either of them play here yet. Latendresse is healthy. Methot will be on our first pairing playing with karlsson.
Come back at game 30 and type your post again. I'm predicting we're going to happy with these guys.
we'll see

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01-11-2013, 01:06 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Based on Kuba playing like a legit top pairing d-man (arguably #1 d-man caliber), Foligno scoring 43 even strength points (more than say, Ovechkin), Methot being worse than 6 Columbus d-men + Ryan Murray and Latendresse hardly playing at all in the last 3 years.
Hahahahaha, omg is this real life? Pleasee tell me it ain't so.

Karlsson MADE Kuba AINEC. Kuba is AT MOST a number 4 defender on a Cup team, I swear I think I'm being generous.

Remember Eronen over in Finland, for first 10 games erryone was going OMFGGG ERONEN+KARLSSON JIZZZZZZZ. As the season went on...

It was just Karlsson. Same deal with Kuba.

#1 d-man? Oh Lordy.

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01-11-2013, 01:22 AM
  #618
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Hahahahaha, omg is this real life? Pleasee tell me it ain't so.

Karlsson MADE Kuba AINEC. Kuba is AT MOST a number 4 defender on a Cup team, I swear I think I'm being generous.

Remember Eronen over in Finland, for first 10 games erryone was going OMFGGG ERONEN+KARLSSON JIZZZZZZZ. As the season went on...

It was just Karlsson. Same deal with Kuba.

#1 d-man? Oh Lordy.
Tomorrow I will make a post about Kuba that will blow your mind.

Wait for it. It will be legendary.

You better get psyched. I wanna feel the tremors of psychitude.

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01-11-2013, 01:30 AM
  #619
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Kuba #1 dman
Bishop trade was useless
Neil is the worst player on the sens
Karlsson made Spezza
That Spezza proposal

Sweet jesus this all just in the last month or so.

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01-11-2013, 01:33 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Tomorrow I will make a post about Kuba that will blow your mind.

Wait for it. It will be legendary.

You better get psyched. I wanna feel the tremors of psychitude.
Lol, isn't it:

It will be... wait for it... Legendary.

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01-11-2013, 01:52 AM
  #621
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Lol, isn't it:

It will be... wait for it... Legendary.
Nope.

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01-11-2013, 01:56 AM
  #622
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Nope.
Ah it's gonna be legen... wait for it... DARY.

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01-11-2013, 02:24 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

Iginla and St. Louis are far from what they once were. Very far.
Umm 2010-2011 at age 35 St. Louis had 99 points, and last season he had 74 pts in 77 games. And before you use "he's playing with Stamkos!" as an excuse, he's averaged almost a ppg since the last lockout.

If you're gonna pick a player that's declining, try using one that's actually declining, because if you watch him play St. Louis is still an amazing talent, and even more amazing considering his size

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope Spezza declines as much as you think Martin St. Louis has when he's 35

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01-11-2013, 08:19 AM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Based on Kuba playing like a legit top pairing d-man (arguably #1 d-man caliber), Foligno scoring 43 even strength points (more than say, Ovechkin), Methot being worse than 6 Columbus d-men + Ryan Murray and Latendresse hardly playing at all in the last 3 years.
It's fair to be a bit worried about the chemistry factor with Karlsson that Kuba had, but it really comes down to how much you believe in Karlsson. Will he be good with another competent defensive d-man? Or was it Kuba that enabled him to be so successful? Frankly, I think most believe it is the former.

Looking at the Kuba/Foligno for Methot/Lats swap, I can't help but be cautiously optimistic about it, given age and contract factors into. And contracts isn't just about saving money, but freeing up money for others and additions..

Methot is almost 10 years younger than Kuba, and makes more than $1m less. His defensive game is also much better, and he doesn't have the injury issues every other year Kuba does. That is a massive upgrade on D long-term. I think he will be a solid top 4 guy, whether he is a great fit with Karlsson or not.

For Foligno, everyone liked the guy, but he really is a poor man's scoring forward (while being a very productive 3rd liner). Pesky, skates well and the kind of guy you'd love to have on your third line, but also a guy who probably isn't a great top 6 guy. Not too many playoff teams would have him as one of their top two LWers.

Injuries aside (which you can't ignore), Latendresse has much more upside. He is the same age, but has much better goal scoring skills in terms of a shot and release (where as Foligno is more dangerous on the rush one-on-one). Latendresse will creep along and fine a seam for a playmaker to find him. This is an underated skill and we haven't had someone good at this since Heatley, really (Milan is ok). Foligno simply didn't know how to do this. His goals were him creating his own chance, typically, or a goal mouth poke in. Both Lats and Foligno go to the net well, but Latendresse is 25 pounds heavier.

In terms of production, Latendresse has scored more goals in his last 82 games with the Wild (33), than Foligno scored in his last two full seasons (29 goals in 164 games). The upside of Latendresse is that of a bonafide scoring winger, where as Foligno will likely always be a tweener, who teases you with a breaktaking goal every 10 games or so, but in the end, management has to admit, if he's in your top 6, you're in trouble. Takes value to get value, so moving a really good 3rd liner for a top 4 d-man made perfect sense. On the injury side, I don't see Lats being any more of a risk than someone who relies on Kuba.

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01-11-2013, 08:33 AM
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sg58
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sens(e) View Post
It's fair to be a bit worried about the chemistry factor with Karlsson that Kuba had, but it really comes down to how much you believe in Karlsson. Will he be good with another competent defensive d-man? Or was it Kuba that enabled him to be so successful? Frankly, I think most believe it is the former.

Looking at the Kuba/Foligno for Methot/Lats swap, I can't help but be cautiously optimistic about it, given age and contract factors into. And contracts isn't just about saving money, but freeing up money for others and additions..

Methot is almost 10 years younger than Kuba, and makes more than $1m less. His defensive game is also much better, and he doesn't have the injury issues every other year Kuba does. That is a massive upgrade on D long-term. I think he will be a solid top 4 guy, whether he is a great fit with Karlsson or not.
The comment about their respective defensive game is subjective, of course, and I recognize that, so I'll just leave that with saying that's not something that we can flat out determine that it is.

Methot hasn't played a full pro season since his first year with the Crunch, I believe. I'll reserve myself on his early pro years as there might've been cases where he was healthy scratched, but he's missed over a 100 games over the four years he's been with the Jackets full-time. I know there are some healthy scratches in there, though, but not like he's on an iron man streak.

I am slightly pessimistic about this short-term. I realize Kuba was not a long-term option, but I really don't think Methot should be either as a top-pairing guy if this team want to go places.

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