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Old
01-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #351
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Part of what I'm saying is the same as what KIRK is saying, because sometimes part of developing a player is in fact to give him a chance. Development is a free-flowing exercise, including opportunities with the big club.

Whatever it is we're doing isn't working. And the greatness that is Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin have been masking it for quite a while now.

It would seem as though some of our young talent believes they should be more advanced than they are. The organization wants them to prove themselves more. There seems to be a disconnect here. Not just with Despres, but I believe with Tangradi too.

Honestly, there really isn't any good reason why guys like Strait and Bortuzzo aren't NHL regulars yet, either with us or someone else. And yeah eventually Vitale arrived, but the guy was 26 frickin' years old when it happened. This isn't baseball. This is a sport where guys can play at 18. By 22 you should have a player on your hands ready for the big league. 23 if he's a little late. 24 if he's a late-bloomer. Vitale was 26 and he was still fighting for time.

Who was the last 19-year-old (forget 18) that got a crack at earning a job with us? A legit shot, I mean. We've lacked the ability to infuse youth into the mix, and it's cost us. Is it because of a commitment to have a strong AHL club? Well, signing a bunch of retreads didn't work this year. And it hasn't helped development, either. It's been a lost season down on the farm.

So yeah, there is a problem here. Maybe this is why a lot of people think we have a SMALL window to win here. That should NOT be the case, since our core is still quite young relatively speaking. We're not exactly Detroit. And yet, their farm system is absolutely loaded with talent. They're uber patient with their prospects, but it works for them. Other teams promote kids a lot more quickly, and that works for them.

We need to figure out what works for us, because signing Benn Ferriero sure does nothing.

/rant
Staal and Letang. Nobody expected either to stick, but both got a shot that, under similar circumstances, Tangradi in 2009, Despres in 2010, and Morrow in 2011 did not get.

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01-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I know I'm kind of sniping, here but I think much of the reason we haven't seen any immediate impact types is simply because this team hasn't drafted any. Despite popular opinion about how "awesome" our defensive prospects are... most are probably still middle of the road, at best, in the grand scheme.
Probably. But, compare Letang's camp in 2006 to Morrow's camp in 2011. It's a fair point about how this organization changed in its view of and approach to young players after winning the cup.

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01-11-2013, 12:05 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Probably. But, compare Letang's camp in 2006 to Morrow's camp in 2011. It's a fair point about how this organization changed in its view of and approach to young players after winning the cup.
And then compare our D roster then vs 2011.

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01-11-2013, 12:11 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
And then compare our D roster then vs 2011.
With Orpik hurt to open the 2011-2012 season? No excuse not to give him up to 10 games.

Despres at 2010 camp, o'k, fair point. No explanation for Morrow except to support those who question DB's patience with and willingness to give shots to young players.

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01-11-2013, 12:40 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
With Orpik hurt to open the 2011-2012 season? No excuse not to give him up to 10 games.

Despres at 2010 camp, o'k, fair point. No explanation for Morrow except to support those who question DB's patience with and willingness to give shots to young players.
From watching the way he has played in WBS this season that would have just been a waste of time. He was ready last season and he isn't ready this season.

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01-11-2013, 12:41 PM
  #356
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Part of what I'm saying is the same as what KIRK is saying, because sometimes part of developing a player is in fact to give him a chance. Development is a free-flowing exercise, including opportunities with the big club.

Whatever it is we're doing isn't working. And the greatness that is Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin have been masking it for quite a while now.

It would seem as though some of our young talent believes they should be more advanced than they are. The organization wants them to prove themselves more. There seems to be a disconnect here. Not just with Despres, but I believe with Tangradi too.

Honestly, there really isn't any good reason why guys like Strait and Bortuzzo aren't NHL regulars yet, either with us or someone else. And yeah eventually Vitale arrived, but the guy was 26 frickin' years old when it happened. This isn't baseball. This is a sport where guys can play at 18. By 22 you should have a player on your hands ready for the big league. 23 if he's a little late. 24 if he's a late-bloomer. Vitale was 26 and he was still fighting for time.

Who was the last 19-year-old (forget 18) that got a crack at earning a job with us? A legit shot, I mean. We've lacked the ability to infuse youth into the mix, and it's cost us. Is it because of a commitment to have a strong AHL club? Well, signing a bunch of retreads didn't work this year. And it hasn't helped development, either. It's been a lost season down on the farm.

So yeah, there is a problem here. Maybe this is why a lot of people think we have a SMALL window to win here. That should NOT be the case, since our core is still quite young relatively speaking. We're not exactly Detroit. And yet, their farm system is absolutely loaded with talent. They're uber patient with their prospects, but it works for them. Other teams promote kids a lot more quickly, and that works for them.

We need to figure out what works for us, because signing Benn Ferriero sure does nothing.

/rant
Vitale played 4 seasons at NU and needed two seasons in the A, IMHO. MY thing is, I am positive DB exposes him to waivers instead of Adams if Crosby isn't hurt. That would of been a big mistake, obviously.

I'm kind of arguing agt. myself because I've called out this org ability to scout, draft and develop fwd prospects. I just finally realized even before the draft, that Shero is always going to place a heavy emphasis on the blueline. I made peace with it.

Why I'm ok with him taking DP:

- DP is a hell of a talent
- with the Staal trade there is now more cap room to land a legit top six winger
- the blueline prospects could make guys like Orpik and Nisky expendable in a trade for a winger
- I still believe in Tangradi and think BB could help by next season
- the pipe is also so full of blueline prospects, that Shero has to take a fwd prospect in a strong draft this Summer

Of course point four is your biggest worry, but as I said, I just think DB learned his lesson about the value of young players. If getting your ass handed to you by a roster full of rookies doesn't wake you up, nothing will.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to be positive and give DB one last chance.

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01-11-2013, 12:44 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
From watching the way he has played in WBS this season that would have just been a waste of time. He was ready last season and he isn't ready this season.
Great, so you've completely ignored the point. At the time, fall 2011, what reason was there NOT to keep Morrow for up to a 10 game stint, especially with Orpik hurt? Saying, 'well, this year he hasn't been good' isn't an answer. IMO, no difference between Morrow in 2011 and 2006 with Letang, when Therrien pushed for Letang to get a stint. Well, actually the difference is that Bylsma isn't wired that way.

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01-11-2013, 12:46 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Vitale played 4 seasons at NU and needed two seasons in the A, IMHO. MY thing is, I am positive DB exposes him to waivers instead of Adams if Crosby isn't hurt. That would of been a big mistake, obviously.

I'm kind of arguing agt. myself because I've called out this org ability to scout, draft and develop fwd prospects. I just finally realized even before the draft, that Shero is always going to place a heavy emphasis on the blueline. I made peace with it.

Why I'm ok with him taking DP:

- DP is a hell of a talent
- with the Staal trade there is now more cap room to land a legit top six winger
- the blueline prospects could make guys like Orpik and Nisky expendable in a trade for a winger
- I still believe in Tangradi and think BB could help by next season
- the pipe is also so full of blueline prospects, that Shero has to take a fwd prospect in a strong draft this Summer

Of course point four is your biggest worry, but as I said, I just think DB learned his lesson about the value of young players. If getting your ass handed to you by a roster full of rookies doesn't wake you up, nothing will.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to be positive and give DB one last chance.
That really is what this tangential debate boils down to. What's done is done. The question is whether Bylsma has learned from it. Enter Beau Bennett.

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01-11-2013, 01:07 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
That really is what this tangential debate boils down to. What's done is done. The question is whether Bylsma has learned from it. Enter Beau Bennett.
I would say, enter Tangradi. He is beyond ripe and ready for a bigger role in the NHL. Is DB going to give him his chance or defer to a grinding vet once again?

BB, we won't really have a chance to see how he does in camp with no preseason games. So it will be tough for DB to not just send him down, unless he lights it up.

I'm not sure either way on BB NHL readiness.

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01-11-2013, 01:13 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Great, so you've completely ignored the point. At the time, fall 2011, what reason was there NOT to keep Morrow for up to a 10 game stint, especially with Orpik hurt? Saying, 'well, this year he hasn't been good' isn't an answer. IMO, no difference between Morrow in 2011 and 2006 with Letang, when Therrien pushed for Letang to get a stint. Well, actually the difference is that Bylsma isn't wired that way.
if i remember correctly we had full roster, that would be one reason.
i think we had Park, Macintyre and Jeffrey as extra forwards

they could have easily waived Mac or something im sure, but they didnt

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01-11-2013, 01:15 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by khaoskennedy View Post
if i remember correctly we had full roster, that would be one reason.
i think we had Park, Macintyre and Jeffrey as extra forwards

they could have easily waived Mac or something im sure, but they didnt
I'm pretty sure Steve MacIntyre was waived last season, but no team claimed him.

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01-11-2013, 01:18 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Vitale played 4 seasons at NU and needed two seasons in the A, IMHO. MY thing is, I am positive DB exposes him to waivers instead of Adams if Crosby isn't hurt. That would of been a big mistake, obviously.

I'm kind of arguing agt. myself because I've called out this org ability to scout, draft and develop fwd prospects. I just finally realized even before the draft, that Shero is always going to place a heavy emphasis on the blueline. I made peace with it.

Why I'm ok with him taking DP:

- DP is a hell of a talent
- with the Staal trade there is now more cap room to land a legit top six winger
- the blueline prospects could make guys like Orpik and Nisky expendable in a trade for a winger
- I still believe in Tangradi and think BB could help by next season
- the pipe is also so full of blueline prospects, that Shero has to take a fwd prospect in a strong draft this Summer

Of course point four is your biggest worry, but as I said, I just think DB learned his lesson about the value of young players. If getting your ass handed to you by a roster full of rookies doesn't wake you up, nothing will.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to be positive and give DB one last chance.
I'm right there with ya. I really, really like DB and how he treats players and the community. HOWEVER, there has to be an infusion from time to time. Young players will work hard and play above their limits around vets ... and vice versa, vets step their game up when they know they could lose their job. There is no one to play with Bennett on WBS ... so give him to Sid and let the magic happen. I hope Sid goes to DB and says ... "are you getting me a legit winger this year to go with Kuni and me? No?!? Bennett makes this team now."

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01-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I would say, enter Tangradi. He is beyond ripe and ready for a bigger role in the NHL. Is DB going to give him his chance or defer to a grinding vet once again?

BB, we won't really have a chance to see how he does in camp with no preseason games. So it will be tough for DB to not just send him down, unless he lights it up.

I'm not sure either way on BB NHL readiness.
Well, I'd say enter Tangradi too, but this is DB we're talking about. You know, he's my first example of how the Pens attitudes towards young players have changed. 2009 camp, he comes in and is absolutely killing it with Sid and Kunitz in camp. Yeah, Guerin was on the roster, but Dupuis, who'd been a 4th liner when the Pens won the cup, was slotted on a line with Geno and Fedotenko. He didn't get his shot then. And, the following year, his 'shot' was a handful of games on a line with Geno on RW and Hillary Duff's hubby at center.

As for BB, what you say likely is what will happen with him. But, as I keep saying, there's only one way to speak to his readiness, and that's to play him. The skills are there. The physical element . . . you won't know if he can handle it like Skinner or Perron did until he actually plays.

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01-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Great, so you've completely ignored the point. At the time, fall 2011, what reason was there NOT to keep Morrow for up to a 10 game stint, especially with Orpik hurt? Saying, 'well, this year he hasn't been good' isn't an answer. IMO, no difference between Morrow in 2011 and 2006 with Letang, when Therrien pushed for Letang to get a stint. Well, actually the difference is that Bylsma isn't wired that way.
I don't disagree that they could and possible should have giving Morrow a few games. However, in the grand scheme of his development, it's not a big deal either way. They decided to give him the camp experience and then send him back to juniors. Now he is in the AHL and, from all accounts, has shown that he needs some more development time. So what's the big deal?

This season and next will be telling. All I'm saying is let's be patient and see how it plays out.

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01-11-2013, 01:22 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by wtbipyo View Post
I'm right there with ya. I really, really like DB and how he treats players and the community. HOWEVER, there has to be an infusion from time to time. Young players will work hard and play above their limits around vets ... and vice versa, vets step their game up when they know they could lose their job. There is no one to play with Bennett on WBS ... so give him to Sid and let the magic happen. I hope Sid goes to DB and says ... "are you getting me a legit winger this year to go with Kuni and me? No?!? Bennett makes this team now."
That's really what it is for me too. It's as if the organization forgot that with Sid and then Geno and Staal and then Letang that, almost as much as you were talking about an infusion of talent, you also were talking about an infusion of youthful energy.

I had big issues with him in other areas, but this was one thing Therrien really embraced, and not just with the no-brainer calls like Sid and Geno. I've never really seen Bylsma similarly embrace that.

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01-11-2013, 01:27 PM
  #366
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Well, I'd say enter Tangradi too, but this is DB we're talking about. You know, he's my first example of how the Pens attitudes towards young players have changed. 2009 camp, he comes in and is absolutely killing it with Sid and Kunitz in camp. Yeah, Guerin was on the roster, but Dupuis, who'd been a 4th liner when the Pens won the cup, was slotted on a line with Geno and Fedotenko. He didn't get his shot then. And, the following year, his 'shot' was a handful of games on a line with Geno on RW and Hillary Duff's hubby at center.

As for BB, what you say likely is what will happen with him. But, as I keep saying, there's only one way to speak to his readiness, and that's to play him. The skills are there. The physical element . . . you won't know if he can handle it like Skinner or Perron did until he actually plays.
I agree with this line of thinking. If you are going to make a young player thoroughly outperform a veteran to win a job, it's going to be awfully tough for them to do that. Furthermore, if given a job, you have to give them some leash so they don't play nervous thinking they'll get benched for one bad period. That's the only way that you'll get the best out of them.

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01-11-2013, 01:29 PM
  #367
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I agree with this line of thinking. If you are going to make a young player thoroughly outperform a veteran to win a job, it's going to be awfully tough for them to do that. Furthermore, if given a job, you have to give them some leash so they don't play nervous thinking they'll get benched for one bad period. That's the only way that you'll get the best out of them.
Plus, you'd like to put them into a position to succeed when you do play them.

And have you ever seen that from Bylsma?

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01-11-2013, 01:48 PM
  #368
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I'm pretty sure Steve MacIntyre was waived last season, but no team claimed him.
yes he was but not til later in the season, he was in the NHL for a few months til everyone was healthy eventhough he didnt play much

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01-11-2013, 01:48 PM
  #369
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Plus, you'd like to put them into a position to succeed when you do play them.

And have you ever seen that from Bylsma?
- I think with Despres he gave him a chance to succeed, but he only got called up because of a rash of injuries (didnt deserve the callup).

- Jeffrey was put with pluggers, had some puck luck in his first few games, then had his minutes increased.

- Vitale made it because of the Crosby injury and his outstanding play, got unfairly benched for vets who should of taken a seat.

- Tangradi was mishandled to the point of ridiculousness.

Unless his hand is forced, DB defers to his vets for sure. I don't think many will argue that point.

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01-11-2013, 02:01 PM
  #370
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- I think with Despres he gave him a chance to succeed, but he only got called up because of a rash of injuries (didnt deserve the callup).

- Jeffrey was put with pluggers, had some puck luck in his first few games, then had his minutes increased.

- Vitale made it because of the Crosby injury and his outstanding play, got unfairly benched for vets who should of taken a seat.

- Tangradi was mishandled to the point of ridiculousness.

Unless his hand is forced, DB defers to his vets for sure. I don't think many will argue that point.
But, go beyond that . . . Tangradi in camp before the 2009-2010 season, Despres before the 2010-2011 season, Morrow before the 2011-2012 season (with Orpik on the shelf). Despres, o'k, I get the 'no spot' argument, although there really wouldn't have been any harm then not starting Engo or Lovejoy for a few games. Anyway, those guys didn't even get the shot.

So, I'll ask you this: Camp before the 2006-2007 season. Pens have a full roster, even with Geno getting hurt. They're on a tight budget after the 2005-2006 debacle. Does Bylsma go to bat for Staal and Letang getting a cup of coffee? Therrien did. I've seen nothing to suggest that Bylsma would have.

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01-11-2013, 02:08 PM
  #371
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I admit we may not be talking about a can't-miss, top of the NHL prospect among our group of prospects. For instance, it's not like Bylsma has messed with a Mikael Granlund type of prospect here. We haven't had one of those in some time.

However, I dispute the notion that the guys we're talking about aren't solid NHL prospects. Tangradi played for Team USA at the WJC, and he was a good scorer (albeit streaky) in the OHL. Despres was a first rounder and looked good in his very first camp at 18. I don't recall if he played for Canada or not, but he certainly was in the mix. Bennett is a first rounder who may have gotten WJC consideration the year he injured his leg (I believe it was). Morrow is a first rounder. Pouliot is a first rounder. Maatta is a first rounder. Harrington is a heralded OHL and WJC performer. Strait captained the American WJC squad iirc. Bortuzzo has been a standout defender in the AHL.

I really don't think we're making players out to be something they're not. They're legit top-10 prospect types.

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01-11-2013, 02:12 PM
  #372
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But, go beyond that . . . Tangradi in camp before the 2009-2010 season, Despres before the 2010-2011 season, Morrow before the 2011-2012 season (with Orpik on the shelf). Despres, o'k, I get the 'no spot' argument, although there really wouldn't have been any harm then not starting Engo or Lovejoy for a few games. Anyway, those guys didn't even get the shot.

So, I'll ask you this: Camp before the 2006-2007 season. Pens have a full roster, even with Geno getting hurt. They're on a tight budget after the 2005-2006 debacle. Does Bylsma go to bat for Staal and Letang getting a cup of coffee? Therrien did. I've seen nothing to suggest that Bylsma would have.
This is DB big chance to give a prominent spot to a young kid... but....

I believe Cooke or TK will get the spot on Malkin's line unless Tangradi or BB play out of their minds next week.

I'm holding out hope DB will open his mind, but I'm also being realistic about what will really happen based on his past decisions.

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01-11-2013, 02:22 PM
  #373
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But, go beyond that . . . Tangradi in camp before the 2009-2010 season, Despres before the 2010-2011 season, Morrow before the 2011-2012 season (with Orpik on the shelf). Despres, o'k, I get the 'no spot' argument, although there really wouldn't have been any harm then not starting Engo or Lovejoy for a few games. Anyway, those guys didn't even get the shot.

So, I'll ask you this: Camp before the 2006-2007 season. Pens have a full roster, even with Geno getting hurt. They're on a tight budget after the 2005-2006 debacle. Does Bylsma go to bat for Staal and Letang getting a cup of coffee? Therrien did. I've seen nothing to suggest that Bylsma would have.
And it's not all on Bylsma. I wanna be fair. I think MOST of us wanted a quality UFA defenseman in the summer of 2010. Shero didn't have to sign two, but he did. I would have been happy with one of Martin or Michalek. Both was overkill in my mind. That would have opened a spot on D. Shero never seems satisfied with his blueline quantity, though. At some point, you need to leave the door slightly ajar, so that one of your kids can bust it down.

Also, the GM and coach aren't always on the same page. That too is a factor. For instance, Shero clearly prefers having an enforcer. I mean, he continues to sign one every year. I am with him on that point, but Bylsma is a four-line coach. He prefers little grinding types. Similarly, Shero decided NOT to replace Steve Sullivan. So, that (at least in my mind) is an indication that the GM wants a young player to move into a top-six forward role.

Let's see what the coach views as a top-six forward.

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01-11-2013, 02:24 PM
  #374
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I admit we may not be talking about a can't-miss, top of the NHL prospect among our group of prospects. For instance, it's not like Bylsma has messed with a Mikael Granlund type of prospect here. We haven't had one of those in some time.

However, I dispute the notion that the guys we're talking about aren't solid NHL prospects. Tangradi played for Team USA at the WJC, and he was a good scorer (albeit streaky) in the OHL. Despres was a first rounder and looked good in his very first camp at 18. I don't recall if he played for Canada or not, but he certainly was in the mix. Bennett is a first rounder who may have gotten WJC consideration the year he injured his leg (I believe it was). Morrow is a first rounder. Pouliot is a first rounder. Maatta is a first rounder. Harrington is a heralded OHL and WJC performer. Strait captained the American WJC squad iirc. Bortuzzo has been a standout defender in the AHL.

I really don't think we're making players out to be something they're not. They're legit top-10 prospect types.
Correct and how many of those have been mishandled? Tangradi is the only one.

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01-11-2013, 02:36 PM
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Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Correct and how many of those have been mishandled? Tangradi is the only one.
The most logical thing here is to put Tangradi on the open hole on Malkin's line. Cooke is in his 30s and isn't getting any better. TK is a gunner and a third liner, he is not even close to an ideal fit there.

If things don't work out with Tangradi, at least you know he isn't an answer and to keep looking. If he meshes well, you have a big playmaker on a line with two finishers and one of your winger problems solved.

I'm just not sure if DB sees it that way, especially when games mean so much more than usual.

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