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Teravainen vs Gaudreau

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Old
01-11-2013, 11:10 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
Do people realize that Martin St. Louis is a nearly generational exception? You shouldn't expect any player to do what he has, you should wish for it.

It amazes me how many people make arguments by listing exceptions as if that supports them. Yes St. Louis has had an amazing career at a small stature, but the list of players who have struggled due to size(and strength) is much longer. Yes, Jamie Benn was better than MANY players drafted before him, but on that same merit Patrick Kane turned out better Jim O'Brien, and Jonathan Toews ended up better than Bryan Little.

Gaudreau has to put on over 25 pounds to weigh what Teravainen does.

Also, how can you ignore that TT is playing at a much higher level? Sure, Gaudreau may be playing at a similar level if he was born in Finland, BUT HE ISN'T. And that is extremely valuable experience that TT is gaining right now against much closer to NHL level players.

Both very talented players in their own right, and I would love nothing more than to see Johnny Gaudreau be successful player because he has flair and tenacity that you just don't see that often. But one of these players looks a lot closer to being an NHLer than the other. NHL scouts usually know what they're doing, and there's a reason one was taken later as a much higher risk.
Why does JG have to put on the same weight as TT? They are different players when JG is done adding weight he will most likely be 170-175 pounds as that fits well with his smaller frame and the fact he likes to use his speed.

Yes JG was seen as a big risk at 5'6 in his draft because if he didn't grow than he would be the smallest player in todays nhl, but several scouts said they thought he had first round talent.

We are comparing them because now JG is lets say 5'8 for arguments sake and while he is still on the small side there are examples of players around his height doing just find Ennis, Louis, Gionta, Cammy not to mention the game is moving to a game that is better suited to him as skill and speed are becoming more important and goons are started to leave the game as they are less effective. So it is entirely possible that some people see JG less risky now that he has grown abit and can judge them based on skill which JG was thought to have first round talent. But clearly this is HF and once you get listed at 5'6 you will for ever be 5'6 and it doesn't matter how good you are no one will pay attention because you were a 4th round pick.

I have no problem with someone saying TT is better but when they are only using the fact that JG is 5'6 as he was listed on his draft day or the fact he was a 4th round pick those aren't valid arguments. Most people wouldn't have seen much of both maybe either and thats fine I have only seen TT 4-5 times outside of the WJC so I haven't seen him complete game but from watching JG he has some unreal talent and I thought he had a bad WJC, people are too worried about his size and not the fact that he has found a way to dominate every league he has been in even tho he is smaller than most.

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01-11-2013, 11:15 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
The difference is Kruger can skate and is a two way forward...Gaudreau not so much.
Krugs is an average skater. I think most knowledgeable hawk fans (and scouts) know this.

As far as the who I'd take, definitely Teravainen.. bar none and I love Gaudreau.

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01-11-2013, 11:20 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by umwoz View Post
Do people realize that Martin St. Louis is a nearly generational exception? You shouldn't expect any player to do what he has, you should wish for it.

It amazes me how many people make arguments by listing exceptions as if that supports them. Yes St. Louis has had an amazing career at a small stature, but the list of players who have struggled due to size(and strength) is much longer. Yes, Jamie Benn was better than MANY players drafted before him, but on that same merit Patrick Kane turned out better Jim O'Brien, and Jonathan Toews ended up better than Bryan Little.

Gaudreau has to put on over 25 pounds to weigh what Teravainen does.

Also, how can you ignore that TT is playing at a much higher level? Sure, Gaudreau may be playing at a similar level if he was born in Finland, BUT HE ISN'T. And that is extremely valuable experience that TT is gaining right now against much closer to NHL level players.

Both very talented players in their own right, and I would love nothing more than to see Johnny Gaudreau be successful player because he has flair and tenacity that you just don't see that often. But one of these players looks a lot closer to being an NHLer than the other. NHL scouts usually know what they're doing, and there's a reason one was taken later as a much higher risk.
SM-Liiga is not a "much higher level" than NCAA. It's a slightly higher level. The difference between NCAA and SM-Liiga is roughly the same as SM-Liiga to SEL, at least going by NHLE.

With all the idiocy around "lol small players fail" vs "lol some don't", the fact is that most draftees do not make the NHL full-time, and a lot don't see any NHL action at all, whether they're 5'6 or 6'8. Of all of the smaller players at that age, Gaudreau is in a small (heh) group that I'd consider more likely to make the bigs in spite of his size, and beyond that there is no need for this horrendous back-and-forth pissing contest of cherry picking and generalities.

While we are talking about the ability to translate, however, I don't recall anyone mentioning that Teravainen is playing a very different game from NHL hockey, while Gaudreau is playing on rinks closer to NHL size. Player size may be one factor that often gets in the way of moving up to the NHL, but so is the ability to translate from the European style leagues.

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01-11-2013, 11:28 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
I was not aware CGY fans were like Edmonton and Toronto, biased as hell, I think it's just because it is media based. They get too much exposure.
Oh the delicious irony.

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01-11-2013, 11:59 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
Talking to yourself?

Since draft position is the end-all-be-all, maybe you can explain the value of Thomas Hickey (4) versus Alec Martinez (95)? How about Logan MacMillan (19) versus Jamie Benn (129)? How about Angelo Esposito (20) versus Matt Halischuk (117)? How about just explaining Dennis Persson? Or putting into terms you should really be able to understand, how about Johan Fransson (34) versus Alexander Elder (91)? We're talking first round studs versus scrubs from later rounds. This should be pretty easy for a real smart guy like yourself to explain.

Also, you'll notice in my posts I have not stated that one player was better than the next. I discussed, and pointed out, that one player was over achieving, as indicated by specific accolades, and one player was under achieving. I have not stated that one player was superior because that is an unknown until they get to the NHL level. What I have done is pointed out where the logic breaks down in this argument. Examples:

Teravanien is a first round pick, so is superior. That is demonstrably false based on historical examples you're going to explain.

Teravanien out performed Gaudreau at this tournament. Data seems to indicate otherwise as the coaches selections of their best players counters the developing mythology surrounding Teravanien. The tournament stats and quality of competition when points were scored seems to counter the claims as well.

The coaching was bad, invalidating the selections of Team Finland. Coaching was supposedly the bane of every team at one point. Housley was an idiot for his handling of Galynchuk, even though his team won the tournament. If the coaching was bad maybe the hosts of the tournament could support the claim Teravanien was the best Finn player. How many players of the game did he win during the tournament? Any of them when games mattered?

My favorite, Gaudreau excelled on international ice so Teravanien will have an advantage on the smaller ice surface. I forget. How many NHL size ice surfaces does Teravanien play games on over in Finland? How many NHL surfaces does the NCAA use? How is that guy that can't play on the small ice surface doing on those small ice surfaces? How is Teravanien doing on the small ice surfaces (how about this sample size?) and what accolades has he collected?
What the hell does draft position have to do with anything I said? You are comparing two players through 7 games thinking it shows who's the better prospects, while disregarding anything they have done before. Also you seem to forget that Gaudreau got most of his points against teams that played the relegation round?
And while we're at it I think I have to inform you that the rinks in Finland are not international standard, but smaller.

And yes the level between the FEL and the NCAA is big. The FEL is a professional league filled with players at a level the majority of NCAA players will NEVER reach.

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01-11-2013, 12:15 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by bottomofthefoodchain View Post
What the hell does draft position have to do with anything I said? You are comparing two players through 7 games thinking it shows who's the better prospects, while disregarding anything they have done before. Also you seem to forget that Gaudreau got most of his points against teams that played the relegation round?
And while we're at it I think I have to inform you that the rinks in Finland are not international standard, but smaller.

And yes the level between the FEL and the NCAA is big. The FEL is a professional league filled with players at a level the majority of NCAA players will NEVER reach.
Gaudreau put up 67% of his points against Canada and Cezch Republic. Those are good teams. He was absolutely lethal against Canada in the 2nd most important game of the tournament. I love how you talk about "comparing players through 7 games blah blah" and go on to do it yourself with who Johnny scored against.

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01-11-2013, 12:19 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by bottomofthefoodchain View Post
What the hell does draft position have to do with anything I said? You are comparing two players through 7 games thinking it shows who's the better prospects, while disregarding anything they have done before. Also you seem to forget that Gaudreau got most of his points against teams that played the relegation round?
And while we're at it I think I have to inform you that the rinks in Finland are not international standard, but smaller.

And yes the level between the FEL and the NCAA is big. The FEL is a professional league filled with players at a level the majority of NCAA players will NEVER reach.
Thats when I knew I could ignore everything you had to say.

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01-11-2013, 01:31 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by bottomofthefoodchain View Post
And yes the level between the FEL and the NCAA is big. The FEL is a professional league filled with players at a level the majority of NCAA players will NEVER reach.
If NCAA is such a bush league than guys like Kessel, Parise, and Toews should have absolutely destroyed it. But as it stands now Gaudreau is sitting at a better .PPG than any of them have had. Whether that lasts remains to be seen, but regardless, more NHL players come from NCAA than SM-Liiga, and it's not like they make a joke out of the league. A lot of really good NHL'ers weren't even .PPG in college.

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01-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
If NCAA is such a bush league than guys like Kessel, Parise, and Toews should have absolutely destroyed it. But as it stands now Gaudreau is sitting at a better .PPG than any of them have had. Whether that lasts remains to be seen, but regardless, more NHL players come from NCAA than SM-Liiga, and it's not like they make a joke out of the league. A lot of really good NHL'ers weren't even .PPG in college.
This is a really good point.

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01-11-2013, 01:44 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
This is a really good point.
Not really. More NHL players also come from the OHL than the SEL.

I think Gabe Desjardins did this work in 2004, so of course it's not updated, but just to give a rough idea.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php

League Difficulty Number of eligible players to test
Finland SM-Liiga ---- 0.54 ----76
NCAA ---- 0.41 ---- 295

Using those difficulties on both TT's and JG's PPG rate this year does give JG a significant advantage though.

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01-11-2013, 01:49 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
If NCAA is such a bush league than guys like Kessel, Parise, and Toews should have absolutely destroyed it. But as it stands now Gaudreau is sitting at a better .PPG than any of them have had. Whether that lasts remains to be seen, but regardless, more NHL players come from NCAA than SM-Liiga, and it's not like they make a joke out of the league. A lot of really good NHL'ers weren't even .PPG in college.
Kessel produced at 1.31PPG his freshman season, and then left. Gaudreau was at 1PPG his freshman season. It's not fair to compare Kessel's freshman year to Gaudreau's sophmore season. Add in the fact that Kessel was a year younger than Gaudreau in their respective freshman seasons, and your point makes no sense. Parise is the same thing, played at 1.56PPG pace in his freshman season, his draft year. Toews' offense just wasn't that impressive in college. Look at it this way:

Draft Year
Gaudreau-not playing in NCAA, playing in USHL
Kessel-1.31PPG in the NCAA
Parise-1.56PPG in the NCAA

Year after Draft Year
Gaudreau-1PPG in NCAA
Kessel-playing in the NHL, 29 points in 70 games
Parise-1.49PPG in NCAA

Who looks better now when you compare them to similar times in their development?



Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
This is a really good point.
Look at the talent pool that they're drawing out of. NCAA has most of the best American hockey players, and plenty of Canadians as well. Finland is producing the quality of players they do out of their population of a measly 5.3 million. The US and Canadian population combined? 345 million. Of course the best Canadians play in Canada, etc., a higher percentage of people play hockey in Finland, but is it really shocking that more people from a pool of 345 million succeed than a pool of 5.3 million?

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01-11-2013, 02:21 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Kessel produced at 1.31PPG his freshman season, and then left. Gaudreau was at 1PPG his freshman season. It's not fair to compare Kessel's freshman year to Gaudreau's sophmore season. Add in the fact that Kessel was a year younger than Gaudreau in their respective freshman seasons, and your point makes no sense. Parise is the same thing, played at 1.56PPG pace in his freshman season, his draft year. Toews' offense just wasn't that impressive in college. Look at it this way:

Draft Year
Gaudreau-not playing in NCAA, playing in USHL
Kessel-1.31PPG in the NCAA
Parise-1.56PPG in the NCAA

Year after Draft Year
Gaudreau-1PPG in NCAA
Kessel-playing in the NHL, 29 points in 70 games
Parise-1.49PPG in NCAA

Who looks better now when you compare them to similar times in their development?
Actually, you should compare Freshman years, and not draft years, because all three were 18 years old as a freshman, it's not like Gaudreau started college as a 19 year old. Kessel wasn't a year younger than Gaudreau in their respective freshman seasons, he just turned 18 in October while Johnny turned 18 in August.

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01-11-2013, 02:23 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Kessel produced at 1.31PPG his freshman season, and then left. Gaudreau was at 1PPG his freshman season. It's not fair to compare Kessel's freshman year to Gaudreau's sophmore season. Add in the fact that Kessel was a year younger than Gaudreau in their respective freshman seasons, and your point makes no sense. Parise is the same thing, played at 1.56PPG pace in his freshman season, his draft year. Toews' offense just wasn't that impressive in college. Look at it this way:

Draft Year
Gaudreau-not playing in NCAA, playing in USHL
Kessel-1.31PPG in the NCAA
Parise-1.56PPG in the NCAA

Year after Draft Year
Gaudreau-1PPG in NCAA
Kessel-playing in the NHL, 29 points in 70 games
Parise-1.49PPG in NCAA

Who looks better now when you compare them to similar times in their development?





Look at the talent pool that they're drawing out of. NCAA has most of the best American hockey players, and plenty of Canadians as well. Finland is producing the quality of players they do out of their population of a measly 5.3 million. The US and Canadian population combined? 345 million. Of course the best Canadians play in Canada, etc., a higher percentage of people play hockey in Finland, but is it really shocking that more people from a pool of 345 million succeed than a pool of 5.3 million?
Is it when someone is saying the other is vastly better than the NCAA.

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01-11-2013, 02:35 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
Gaudreau put up 67% of his points against Canada and Cezch Republic. Those are good teams. He was absolutely lethal against Canada in the 2nd most important game of the tournament. I love how you talk about "comparing players through 7 games blah blah" and go on to do it yourself with who Johnny scored against.
I don't consider a team that loses 0-7 a good team...

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01-11-2013, 02:37 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Boston College's roster lists him as 5'8"
He's 5'9 with skates on and 155 with his equipment on.

JG's values are quite inflated because of just how tiny the guy actually is. He's closer to 5'6 and 135 than 5'9 and 155.

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01-11-2013, 02:39 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
He's 5'9 with skates on and 155 with his equipment on.

JG's values are quite inflated because of just how tiny the guy actually is. He's closer to 5'6 and 135 than 5'9 and 155.
And you know this how.

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01-11-2013, 02:59 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by old time hockey4 View Post
Actually, you should compare Freshman years, and not draft years, because all three were 18 years old as a freshman, it's not like Gaudreau started college as a 19 year old. Kessel wasn't a year younger than Gaudreau in their respective freshman seasons, he just turned 18 in October while Johnny turned 18 in August.
This is true. Make the adjustment, and Parise and Kessel still look much better.

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01-11-2013, 03:00 PM
  #218
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And you know this how.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=527

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01-11-2013, 03:46 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
This is true. Make the adjustment, and Parise and Kessel still look much better.
Yes but both are also top 30 offensive players the fact that JG doesn't look terrible in comparison at 19 Parise had a ppg of 1.49 while JG has a ppg of 1.64 but in a much smaller sample size. I am not saying that JG will be as good as Parise but he doesn't seem that out classed by them.

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01-11-2013, 03:46 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
5'8 is closer to 5'9 than 5'6 so its not a valid point.

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01-11-2013, 04:58 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
Gaudreau put up 67% of his points against Canada and Cezch Republic. Those are good teams. He was absolutely lethal against Canada in the 2nd most important game of the tournament. I love how you talk about "comparing players through 7 games blah blah" and go on to do it yourself with who Johnny scored against.
No the Czechs were awful, sorry.
That's my point dude, 7 games means NOTHING. NOTHING.

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01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
If NCAA is such a bush league than guys like Kessel, Parise, and Toews should have absolutely destroyed it. But as it stands now Gaudreau is sitting at a better .PPG than any of them have had. Whether that lasts remains to be seen, but regardless, more NHL players come from NCAA than SM-Liiga, and it's not like they make a joke out of the league. A lot of really good NHL'ers weren't even .PPG in college.
Wow this is such a stupid post. Yeah and the OHL has likely produced more NHL'ers than any other league in the world. According to your logic, that would make it the best league in the world?

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01-11-2013, 05:07 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Yes but both are also top 30 offensive players the fact that JG doesn't look terrible in comparison at 19 Parise had a ppg of 1.49 while JG has a ppg of 1.64 but in a much smaller sample size. I am not saying that JG will be as good as Parise but he doesn't seem that out classed by them.
Trust me, as a BU student I know how good he is. He's torched our team a number of times, and I've seen most of them in person. He has great vision and skills, but trying to compare him to Kessel and Parise is just premature and unwarranted at this point.

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01-11-2013, 05:32 PM
  #224
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Wow this is such a stupid post. Yeah and the OHL has likely produced more NHL'ers than any other league in the world. According to your logic, that would make it the best league in the world?
For developing prospects it is, yeah. What's so crazy about that? That's why Russians come to Canada when they can play in a "men's league" instead. A much better men's league than SM-Liiga, might I add.

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01-11-2013, 05:49 PM
  #225
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Are you stupid? You linked me to a post saying he was 5'8, which is closer to 5'9 than 5'6 as the poster implied.

Wow, just wow.

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