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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXI - Nobody Loves Raymond Edition

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Old
01-10-2013, 04:55 AM
  #51
professorchaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
To Ana- Kesler, Booth, Jensen, 1st
To Van- Getzlaf, Perry (signed)

To Chi- Luongo, Raymond
To Van- Bolland, Shaw

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Kassian Getzlaf Perry
Higgins Bolland Hansen
Weise Lapierre Shaw

Win cup!
If the rumours that Garrison is indeed going to be a LD and we only have Bieksa and Tanev on the right side, might I suggest dropping Shaw from the Chicago deal and add Montador (solid Vancouver born right-hander) and Emery. With Bolland that might actually make the values a little closer to doable.

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Old
01-10-2013, 08:11 AM
  #52
GoTeamDom
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If we are trading with rivals I would do this "test of manhood" trade:

To Edm:
Edler
Raymond

To Van
Eberle

Trade Luongo to Toronto for Gardiner and Kadri. Win Life.

Sedin-Sedin-Eberle
Burrows-Kesler-Kadri
Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen
Booth-Malholtra-Kassian

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Gardiner-Garrison
Ballard-Tanev

Schneider

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Old
01-10-2013, 09:12 AM
  #53
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by GoTeamDom View Post
This, and basically only this, is why I'd be in favour of trading Edler, much to the chagrin of other posters on this site. I would hate to lose a top defenseman to free agency for nothing 6 times out of 6 (Jovo, Ohlund, Mitchell, Ehrhoff, Salo, Edler) instead of cashing in for premium assets.
Premium assets, right. The Canucks are going to trade an All Star who they have better than even chances of re-signing who has a unique skill set on the team for "premium" assets.

For me it would have to be at the very least a player capable of having the same impact Edler does within a few years (John Carlson, Travis Hamonic) and those guys are not moving.

An Alex Edler trade will be a case of moving a $50 for two $20s and a $10 all for the sake of hanging on to a ratty $20 that nobody else wants all that much.

Quote:
It's nice to say you'll just buy out Ballard to pay for Edler, but the team actually gets worse by doing this since you'll have to replace Ballard with something. And that's assuming Edler returns to form following his back surgeries.
You won't have to replace Edler? I guess you think Keith Ballard is going to transform from a player who is successful when he is a middle of the pack guy on his own team to a player who is capable of being one of the best in the league..

And yeah Keith Ballard would have to be replaced. Which could probably be done for about half the cap space.

Quote:
Also, the Canucks is still a business. Buying out Ballard would cost $2.8m, and after losing half a season of revenue, this is the kind of unnecessary expenditure that sinks successful businesses.


$2.8m is going to "sink" the Canucks? With a falling salary cap and fewer loopholes they could probably buy Ballard out and still pay out less salary than they did last year (especially if Luongo is dealt).

The owners may not be psyched about buying players out per se but we know they are psyched about spending whatever it takes to put the best product on the ice.

Of course if Keith Ballard is as good as you say then the team should be able to trade him making this laughable argument moot.

Quote:
Trading Edler for high calibre players on entry level contracts which will extend the Canucks window to complete. It frees up cap space for a true 3rd line centre to build a secondary scoring line around, or pays for a true 1st line scorer to pair with Kesler. Either of these players would probably need to be brought in by trade as well, and an Edler trade could bring in necessary assets to make this deal get done.
No way does Edler bring in multiple high calibre NHL players, on their ELCs to boot. Are we supposed to get Couture and Brayden Schenn back together or something?

Frankly I would bet that Edler with his current contract status would bring back a 1st round pick and a pretty good young NHLer - nice things to have but hardly franchise altering.. Basically we'd be moving Edler for a draft pick and a massive downgrade (who would hopefully one day be just a moderate downgrade).

All because we might not be able to re-sign this player, well I am pretty confident the Canucks can get a deal done.

Quote:
We are overloaded on LHD, and even though he's the current whipping boy, Ballard is a quality defenseman who is slightly overpaid. A Ballard-Garrison 2nd pairing is a slight downgrade over an Edler-Salo 2nd pairing; that being said, an Edler-Garrison pairing is a slight downgrade over an Edler-Salo pairing.
Jason Garrison is a considerable upgrade over Sami Salo (did you watch the last half of last year? I love Sami but he is done). Keith Ballard is a colossal downgrade from Edler and can't anchor his own pairing in this system if you wanted to split the second pairing up.

The Canucks would be lucky to break even going from Edler/Salo to Ballard/Garrison, except Garrison has said he's not comfortable on the right side and Keith Ballard is an unmitigated disaster there so it would probably not work out.

You'd have Garrison/Tanev and you'd have Keith Ballard making $4.2m while the team has to find a stabilizing influence who can play the right side and who makes third pairing money.. Not an easy task.

Quote:
It is nice to keep around a player we have watched rocket his way up the system (via the Rockets, no less), and just throw around money to make people go away, but I doubt this is how the Canucks run a business.
No what is "nice" is putting the best hockey team on the ice so you have the best chance at more wins, more playoff home dates and more revenue. Because the Canucks are a business.

But anyway "Ballard is a quality defenseman who is slightly overpaid" so the Canucks should have no trouble moving him rather than buying him out. Business!

Quote:
Gillis has had to part ways with his own clients (Naslund, Demitra, Schneider) when they no longer fit the puzzle. He has quickly changed gears (Sturm) when the pieces did not fit. He kept Ehrhoff when it was clear that the team had a shot to win it all, and let him walk when it didn't make financial sense to keep him. I hardly think he is as an emotional manager as a vocal minority of this board.
This is all neither here nor there. I agree he does not seem to be an emotional manager so I am guessing he is not going to panic and make a terrible decision just because a good player on the team is eligible for free agency.


Quote:
That being said, I'd be in favour of keeping Edler under the following circumstances:
- signs a long term contract AAV $4.6m or less
- no NTC

I don't see either of these things happening.
Me neither but the team can fit him in at anything under six (I think it would be best to keep him under $5.5m but I would overpay to get a deal with no NTC) with little trouble.

Quote:
I said in another thread that Edler isn't the missing piece between this team being a Stanley Cup contender and not a Stanley Cup contender. Likewise, Edler isn't the missing piece between a playoff team and not a playoff team.
So what you're saying is that Alex Edler doesn't improve teams.. but earlier you said he's going to return a king's ransom despite having no contract beyond this year.

Quote:
Makes sense to explore your options entirely before hitching your wagon to him longterm.
Sure, explore all you like.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:18 PM
  #54
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Trade Edler!?!!? That isn't ballsy, that's just panicking for no reason at all... well, its not something that a two time presidents trophy winning team needs to do that for sure, and there is no way that Edmonton trades Eberle for a couple of months of Edler anyways. If you are going to make crazy trade proposals at least think about the other team. Lets see, six months of Edler, or seven years of Eberle... I just can't decide what I'd rather have! And don't even suggest for a second that he signs an extension there for any less than he would here, just don't.

Alex is the kind of player that will stay with this organization for the rest of his career unless we do something completely daft like trade him. You can't buy loyalty, you have to draft it and that is one of the only real organizational strengths that we have had is our ability to retain talent, particularly Swedish talent. You don't trade away players who actually care, unless you're Toronto, where no one really cares anymore anyways.

We already have a great asset to trade, we don't need to move our #1 defenceman, our PP QB, a guy who is on the verge of being a serious Norris candidate. If you don't appreciate what Alex means to the teams performance at both ends of the ice you don't know much about the game of hockey, just sayin'.

I mean talk about a way to lose the support of the players, the Sedin's would be furious. Why don't we trade Kesler too? Heck, lets blow the whole thing up while we can, set the arena on fire, sacrifice Finn to appease the gods of hockey, move the team to Seattle before we win another presidents trophy heaven forbid, winning is going to our heads, we need to lose more, much much more, ahhhh... its all crazy here, why are my pants on the ceiling, who cares, fire Gillis, rehire Burke, whats Marc Crawford doing these days, lets give him a call, we need his hair, inflame the magic spiky hair for puck luck, Vignaults the problem, can't you see, all he does is win, we aren't here to win, we're here for the pain, bring back the pain.... the beautiful pain of mediocrity, I miss it soooo much!

Seriously, that proposal.... full Cloutier.

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Old
01-10-2013, 12:51 PM
  #55
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Just read a proposal from a Leafs fan on the main board suggesting:

Kesler, Luongo for Lupul, Kadri, Bozak and Franson

Made me spit out my morning coffee.

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Old
01-10-2013, 01:20 PM
  #56
Seatoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Just read a proposal from a Leafs fan on the main board suggesting:

Kesler, Luongo for Lupul, Kadri, Bozak and Franson

Made me spit out my morning coffee.
It was pretty damn funny tbh. The best part however was how he was so indiginent when Canucks fans laughed at his proposal. He was honestly offended and couldn't figure out why we weren't jumping all over his most generous offer

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Old
01-10-2013, 01:26 PM
  #57
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Just read a proposal from a Leafs fan on the main board suggesting:

Kesler, Luongo for Lupul, Kadri, Bozak and Franson

Made me spit out my morning coffee.
Pfft. If we trade Kesler to the Leafs Komisarek better be coming the other way.

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Old
01-10-2013, 01:31 PM
  #58
Taelin
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
It was pretty damn funny tbh. The best part however was how he was so indiginent when Canucks fans laughed at his proposal. He was honestly offended and couldn't figure out why we weren't jumping all over his most generous offer
Best laugh I've had all week!

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Old
01-10-2013, 03:29 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Just read a proposal from a Leafs fan on the main board suggesting:

Kesler, Luongo for Lupul, Kadri, Bozak and Franson

Made me spit out my morning coffee.
There's been a noticable amp-up of the spin since the burke news.
Its a defence mechanism. As the animal feels threatened, it creates a larger cocoon around itself for comfort and the illusion of safety.

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Old
01-11-2013, 03:48 PM
  #60
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How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?

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Old
01-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?
Top 6 PF winger. I might be convinced to take a good 2-way #3C though depending on what we get back from Luongo. We've just been looking for a big winger who drives the net for some time now, and it would be premature to deal him away at this point.

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Old
01-11-2013, 03:52 PM
  #62
Seatoo
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?
3rd line centre or top 6 RW playmaker

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Old
01-11-2013, 04:04 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?
Shea Weber.

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Old
01-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?
Nick Spaling for Booth?

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Old
01-11-2013, 04:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
How do you all value David Booth? I know you're right up against the cap, with Edler becoming a UFA, and if you need his contract gone, Nashville cap help. Booth had his best days in a small market, and he could get some top 6 minutes with us. What would you want in return?
A good third line center or prospect with similar aspirations. Size is another factor, so any physical player would be worth looking at. It also depends on what the Luongo deal pays. I'd go through your prospects/players but I do not know them well enough to call value. Could lead to bad things.

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01-11-2013, 04:21 PM
  #66
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I'd only deal Booth if we got good value in return or his deal was forced due to cap circumstances, but the only way that happens is we made a big splash in the off-season. If Edler is re-signed his increase will come via moving Ballard. Booth should only move if an upgrade for his position is acquired, Corey Perry

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01-11-2013, 04:30 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
A good third line center or prospect with similar aspirations. Size is another factor, so any physical player would be worth looking at. It also depends on what the Luongo deal pays. I'd go through your prospects/players but I do not know them well enough to call value. Could lead to bad things.
I would consider moving Booth for Gaustad and a pick/prospect I like his size tbh


Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Higgins-Kesler-Kassian
Raymond-Gaustad-Hansen
Malhotra-Lapierre-Weise/Pinnizato
Ebbett

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01-11-2013, 04:58 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Whale View Post
Trade Edler!?!!? That isn't ballsy, that's just panicking for no reason at all... well, its not something that a two time presidents trophy winning team needs to do that for sure, and there is no way that Edmonton trades Eberle for a couple of months of Edler anyways. If you are going to make crazy trade proposals at least think about the other team. Lets see, six months of Edler, or seven years of Eberle... I just can't decide what I'd rather have! And don't even suggest for a second that he signs an extension there for any less than he would here, just don't.

Alex is the kind of player that will stay with this organization for the rest of his career unless we do something completely daft like trade him. You can't buy loyalty, you have to draft it and that is one of the only real organizational strengths that we have had is our ability to retain talent, particularly Swedish talent. You don't trade away players who actually care, unless you're Toronto, where no one really cares anymore anyways.

We already have a great asset to trade, we don't need to move our #1 defenceman, our PP QB, a guy who is on the verge of being a serious Norris candidate. If you don't appreciate what Alex means to the teams performance at both ends of the ice you don't know much about the game of hockey, just sayin'.

I mean talk about a way to lose the support of the players, the Sedin's would be furious. Why don't we trade Kesler too? Heck, lets blow the whole thing up while we can, set the arena on fire, sacrifice Finn to appease the gods of hockey, move the team to Seattle before we win another presidents trophy heaven forbid, winning is going to our heads, we need to lose more, much much more, ahhhh... its all crazy here, why are my pants on the ceiling, who cares, fire Gillis, rehire Burke, whats Marc Crawford doing these days, lets give him a call, we need his hair, inflame the magic spiky hair for puck luck, Vignaults the problem, can't you see, all he does is win, we aren't here to win, we're here for the pain, bring back the pain.... the beautiful pain of mediocrity, I miss it soooo much!

Seriously, that proposal.... full Cloutier.
This.

I don't get why Edler is included in so many proposals, when all the fan base does is cry for a true #1 D. Is it because of his poor showing in last years playoffs? our entire team was far from impressive. I'm confident MG will sign him to a fair deal using the Sedins contracts as a benchmark. Anything around 5-6 mill. on a long term deal will be fair. You don't trade a guy that is almost a #1 D. We have 2 top tier #2 D in Hamhuis and Edler. You let these guys develop into a #1 or you can consider it a blessing to have these guys anchor your d pairings.

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Old
01-11-2013, 05:03 PM
  #69
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This.

I don't get why Edler is included in so many proposals, when all the fan base does is cry for a true #1 D. Is it because of his poor showing in last years playoffs? our entire team was far from impressive. I'm confident MG will sign him to a fair deal using the Sedins contracts as a benchmark. Anything around 5-6 mill. on a long term deal will be fair. You don't trade a guy that is almost a #1 D. We have 2 top tier #2 D in Hamhuis and Edler. You let these guys develop into a #1 or you can consider it a blessing to have these guys anchor your d pairings.
I see nothing wrong in dealing him - *PROVIDED* you already have a right side top four defenseman to replace him (I don't mean a left side D who hasn't played more than one season at the NHL level - least of all one who's currently suffering from a major concusssion).

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01-11-2013, 06:10 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Just read a proposal from a Leafs fan on the main board suggesting:

Kesler, Luongo for Lupul, Kadri, Bozak and Franson

Made me spit out my morning coffee.
Well, Bozak is a first line center... [/seanlinden]

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Old
01-11-2013, 06:14 PM
  #71
ddawg1950
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Originally Posted by GoTeamDom View Post
If we are trading with rivals I would do this "test of manhood" trade:

To Edm:
Edler
Raymond

To Van
Eberle

Trade Luongo to Toronto for Gardiner and Kadri. Win Life.

Sedin-Sedin-Eberle
Burrows-Kesler-Kadri
Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen
Booth-Malholtra-Kassian

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Gardiner-Garrison
Ballard-Tanev

Schneider
Truth is, I don't see ether opposition team go for this deal...even though I think it would actually be really good for both of them.

And I am not one of the "trade Edler" guys.

But looking at that lineup......nice job.

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Old
01-11-2013, 07:12 PM
  #72
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I've been at this stuff again, and in spite of getting a lot of flak before for some proposal, here is something I've been thinking about, and also my first three-way-deal ever said out loud:

From NYI: Frans Nielsen, Ville Pokka
To NYI: Tyler Bozak, Keith Ballard

From TOR: Tyler Bozak, Nazem Kadri, One of Matt Frattin/Matt Finn/Tyler Biggs
To TOR: Roberto Luongo

From VAN: Keith Ballard, Roberto Luongo
To VAN: Frans Nielsen, Nazem Kadri, Ville Pokka, One of Matt Frattin/Matt Finn/Tyler Biggs

And to make sure our defense stays fresh:

To VAN: Henrik Tallinder
To NJD: Mason Raymond

And to finish it off, Sign Dan Ellis.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Higgins
Hansen - Nielsen - Kassian
Malhotra - Lapierre - Weise

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Garrison
Tallinder - Tanev

Schneider
Ellis

We get cheaper on the defense, get our one true 3rd line center, and solidify our prospect ranks with players that can challenge for spots (Kadri, another piece) and at the very least give good competition and support for Chicago's current corps. We also add a NYI defenseman who's playing in Finland at least for now but has the upside necessary to be considered a true add.

Toronto makes a deal they are hoping for but still stings, and the Finn/Frattin/Biggs choice is something they have to make because 2 good pieces and scrap doesn't do it - three good pieces are needed for us to get acceptable value. Colborne/Franson is too little and Gardiner/Reilly are too rich so meeting halfway here. And for those of you who see this winger depth insufficient, we could just try and alter one of these Leafs prospects for a Kulemin, or just try Frattin up straight away, setting Weise aside. I read some 30 pages of Leafs-only discussion about trade values and I'd think any more attempted value from Toronto in one way for another would result in rejection - IRL and HFB both.

For the Isles, they are switching from a serviceable 2C/elite 3C to an equally valuable, young guy that's a few years younger, and while not being as elite defensively on the 3rd as Nielsen can fill their 2nd center need more than Nielsen, so if Strome is not ready yet, at least they have their top lines covered and focus on promoting someone on the third from within. Letting go a good defense prospect in Pokka for Ballard shouldn't hurt them with their insane prospect depth but will give them the stability they need in their top4, and Canucks a very nice piece to add to their defense depth that is pretty grim after Connauton and Corrado.

*puts on rant-protecting helmet and braces for impact*

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01-11-2013, 07:18 PM
  #73
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^^^

I really like Tallinder, he would be a terrific minute-muncher.

Same with Neilsen, very solid player.

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Old
01-11-2013, 08:51 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by turkulad View Post
*puts on rant-protecting helmet and braces for impact*
No need, it's solid. However if we're trading away a top 9 winger I wouldn't mind getting one back. We're always down 1-2 come playoffs and I would be uneasy with that depth going into the postseason.

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Old
01-11-2013, 08:58 PM
  #75
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Isles wouldn' do that deal though, also the fact that Bozak is UFA and almost everyone would prefer Nielsen to Bozak. Ballard for Pokka seems doable, NYI needs roster defenceman. NYI might want Canucks to retain some of Ballard's salary though. Also three way deals often don't happen outside of video games, while we saw one last season (Quincey, Downie, 1st trade).

This whole proposal could actually work if VAN retains some of Ballards salary and maybe add a midpick going to NJ. A signed Bozak would help too.

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