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Kessel's Future?

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Old
01-11-2013, 01:34 PM
  #301
Bodacious
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
If the Bruins have Thornton, then they wlak through the playoffs en-route to a much easier Cup win. I mean they are the Cup champs with the most losses and were also one of the lowest scoring. Same could be said about Kessel as well.
It doesn't quite work that way:

If Thorton isn't dealt, then one or both of Chara and Savard are not signed as UFAs. Savard would be likely not be required, but it's not certain that they would have the financial room to get Chara. Still a formidable group of centers: Thorton, Bergeron, and Krejci would be a contending team. Without Chara I don't think they could win it all.

The argument with Kessel isn't that obvious either. The top ranked Bruins team with Kessel and Savard lost to Carolina in the semis - true today's version of Kessel is better, but he always seemed a secondary piece in Boston.

Of course Bruins fans will draw a simpler conclusion : Bruins + Kessel = no cup, Bruins - Kessel = cup

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01-11-2013, 01:40 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Phil Kessel:

Held accountable by Leafs fans to score 50 goals and have a .950 sv %




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01-11-2013, 01:43 PM
  #303
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I agree. Kessel got his points because he played in a system that was conducive to creating offensive chances but also giving up just as many chances and when you have a full line of players who are absolute crap in their own end, thats the reason they gave up more goals than they scored and hurt the team.

Basically Carlyle isnt going to put up with that crap and is actually going to make sure Kessel puts in effort in the other zones of the hockey rink.

Trade him...let's get younger and more complete players.

Teams would pay that for Kessel to be their finishing piece, as opposed to their franchise player like we've miscast him as.
this is 2 threads ive seen you in where you have 0 idea what youre talking about and bashing the Leafs. you should consider liking a new team if what Toronto does is too much for you.

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01-11-2013, 01:43 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
It doesn't quite work that way:

If Thorton isn't dealt, then one or both of Chara and Savard are not signed as UFAs. Savard would be likely not be required, but it's not certain that they would have the financial room to get Chara. Still a formidable group of centers: Thorton, Bergeron, and Krejci would be a contending team. Without Chara I don't think they could win it all.

The argument with Kessel isn't that obvious either. The top ranked Bruins team with Kessel and Savard lost to Carolina in the semis - true today's version of Kessel is better, but he always seemed a secondary piece in Boston.

Of course Bruins fans will draw a simpler conclusion : Bruins + Kessel = no cup, Bruins - Kessel = cup
Everyone still assumes this deal is so lost. Sure it doesn't look great now...

But what happens if Boston doesn't win a Cup in the next 15 years with Tyler Seguin in the lineup? What if Dougie Hamilton doesn't ever become an impact NHL player?

The problem is certainly not Phil Kessel, he is still miles better than any other player included in this deal. If the leafs can lock him up long term and make a Cup Run or two, I think we still have hope in forgetting this.

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01-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Phil Kessel:

Held accountable by Leafs fans to score 50 goals and have a .950 sv %



Unfortunately true. And it's only going to get worse with Seguin showing no signs of stopping his progression into one of the elite players in the game - not to mention Hamilton. It's the Neidermayer situation all over again, don't worry - only another 15 yrs of reminders left.

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01-11-2013, 01:53 PM
  #306
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Everyone still assumes this deal is so lost. Sure it doesn't look great now...

But what happens if Boston doesn't win a Cup in the next 15 years with Tyler Seguin in the lineup? What if Dougie Hamilton doesn't ever become an impact NHL player?

The problem is certainly not Phil Kessel, he is still miles better than any other player included in this deal. If the leafs can lock him up long term and make a Cup Run or two, I think we still have hope in forgetting this.
Really? is there anyone here who wouldn't trade Kessel for Seguin straight up right now? Seguin is being forcast to outscore Kessel in every projection for this year that I have seen. Yeah Seguin plays with better players, but he doesn't get as much icetime and he's miles better defensively. And only getting better.

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01-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
Really? is there anyone here who wouldn't trade Kessel for Seguin straight up right now? Seguin is being forcast to outscore Kessel in every projection for this year that I have seen. Yeah Seguin plays with better players, but he doesn't get as much icetime and he's miles better defensively. And only getting better.
As of today Kessel is still a better player than Seguin.

Would you trade Seguin for Kessel? yeah for sure, but you're doing that because of what Seguin is projected to be, how he is supposed to improve.

I don't really want to get into this, because it really wasn't the point.

I'm just saying if the Leafs have success with Kessel in uniform, theres still a hope that we can forget the deal.

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01-11-2013, 01:59 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
Unfortunately true. And it's only going to get worse with Seguin showing no signs of stopping his progression into one of the elite players in the game - not to mention Hamilton. It's the Neidermayer situation all over again, don't worry - only another 15 yrs of reminders left.
Or...or...Seguin goes the other way, and regresses (ala Matt Duchene) and Dougie Hamilton busts (ala Ty Wishart). And Kessel continues to be the top scoring RW in the NHL.

See, I can assume things, and pretend I have a crystal ball too. It's actually kinda fun.

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01-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #309
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I'm just saying if the Leafs have success with Kessel in uniform, theres still a hope that we can forget the deal.
And that's the only way the deal will be seen as a success. The Leafs have to - somehow, show some success while Kessel is here. But short of a run to the semis or final in the next few years (because I don't Kessel as being a Leaf past that) how can that happen?

Perhaps if Kessel invents a cure for cancer. Of course some will still complain about his defense.

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01-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
And that's the only way the deal will be seen as a success. The Leafs have to - somehow, show some success while Kessel is here. But short of a run to the semis or final in the next few years (because I don't Kessel as being a Leaf past that) how can that happen?

Perhaps if Kessel invents a cure for cancer. Of course some will still complain about his defense.
The thing is... with Nonis in place now... who cares whether its seen as a success or not?

It really makes no difference now that Burke's "ego" has been removed from the equation.

Still I maintain that Kessel is the best scoring RW in the game today, top 10 scorer who put up a top 50 season in the last decade on a terrible team with very little talent around him.

If I'm Nonis I do my best to sign him long term... before even entertaining the idea of moving him.

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01-11-2013, 03:20 PM
  #311
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How would that be the same?

Sundin came late into a series cold after a long injury, if he's not injured and doesn't come in cold maybe the results are different. Thornton(we'll assume he doesn't get injured) would be with them on their full playoff run, probably helps them score a few more goals in the process leading to fewer games played.
Probably? Here is your previous statement:

Quote:
If the Bruins have Thornton, then they wlak through the playoffs en-route to a much easier Cup win.
So your now backtracking and saying he'd probably have a positive effect? So let me make this question easier for you, hypothetically speaking your a Boston fan and are now are given the following options, keep Joe Thornton in 2005 and alter the future, potentially risking the loss of your Championship. Or trade him for what they did (Ference a product of the Stuart trade was a big part to Bostons success), and keep the Stanley Cup Championship that you won, 6 years following the Thornton trade. What would your answer be?

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01-11-2013, 03:32 PM
  #312
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You will never get anything of value for him because only Burke thought you could build a team around him.

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01-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
Or...or...Seguin goes the other way, and regresses (ala Matt Duchene) and Dougie Hamilton busts (ala Ty Wishart). And Kessel continues to be the top scoring RW in the NHL.

See, I can assume things, and pretend I have a crystal ball too. It's actually kinda fun.
Lol, that's a good way to look at it.

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You will never get anything of value for him because only Burke thought you could build a team around him.
Kessel had done everything the organization had asked of him, which is to score goals. Kessel's natural talent makes him one of the most sought-after players and will be for a long time --every NHL team would pay to get him and soooo appreciative that today he is a Leaf.

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01-11-2013, 03:49 PM
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Lol, that's a good way to look at it.



Kessel had done everything the organization had asked of him, which is to score goals. Kessel's natural talent makes him one of the most sought-after players and will be for a long time --every NHL team would pay to get him and soooo appreciative that today he is a Leaf.

Yeah look at all the playoff wins and Stanley Cups he's gotten for the Leafs.

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01-11-2013, 03:54 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
Really? is there anyone here who wouldn't trade Kessel for Seguin straight up right now? Seguin is being forcast to outscore Kessel in every projection for this year that I have seen. Yeah Seguin plays with better players, but he doesn't get as much icetime and he's miles better defensively. And only getting better.
Seguin is a good hockey player and will be great but are you trying to tell me that he doesn't benefit from playing on a Boston Bruins team? You think he'd be able to do half the things he does here in Toronto than in Boston? I personally don't think so. Just imagine Kessel the player he is now in Boston, He'd probably have gotten 50 goals last season. I know that sounds like a bold thing to say but it isn't far fetched as someone might think

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01-11-2013, 03:58 PM
  #316
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Yeah look at all the playoff wins and Stanley Cups he's gotten for the Leafs.
I think you missed the point --no one man can win the cup all by himself.

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01-11-2013, 04:04 PM
  #317
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You will never get anything of value for him because only Burke thought you could build a team around him.
Yeah no value in a Ppg winger

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01-11-2013, 05:59 PM
  #318
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Seguin is a good hockey player and will be great but are you trying to tell me that he doesn't benefit from playing on a Boston Bruins team? You think he'd be able to do half the things he does here in Toronto than in Boston? I personally don't think so. Just imagine Kessel the player he is now in Boston, He'd probably have gotten 50 goals last season. I know that sounds like a bold thing to say but it isn't far fetched as someone might think
Obviously it's impossible to know for sure unless the players were actually reversed, but Kessel would not be a fit in Boston. Sure they would find a place for him in the line-up, but it wouldn't translate into 50 goals. Even when he scored 36 goals his last season in Boston - he wasn't used on the 1st powerplay. Julien didn't like the turnovers and low % shots. That hasn't changed in Toronto which curiously doesn't have a great powerplay.

Would Kessel score 50 goals playing with Bergeron and Marchand? Given their defensive roles, I don't think so. Just wait until Carlyle gets a hold of him - I doubt he scores more than 35.

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01-11-2013, 06:03 PM
  #319
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I think you missed the point --no one man can win the cup all by himself.
Hopefully we can ask if he buys in to a real rebuild and re-sign him, if not trade him for a first and a good prospect.

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01-12-2013, 12:08 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
Obviously it's impossible to know for sure unless the players were actually reversed, but Kessel would not be a fit in Boston. Sure they would find a place for him in the line-up, but it wouldn't translate into 50 goals. Even when he scored 36 goals his last season in Boston - he wasn't used on the 1st powerplay. Julien didn't like the turnovers and low % shots. That hasn't changed in Toronto which curiously doesn't have a great powerplay.

Would Kessel score 50 goals playing with Bergeron and Marchand? Given their defensive roles, I don't think so. Just wait until Carlyle gets a hold of him - I doubt he scores more than 35.

What? He got 36 goals, 60 points in 70 games in Boston and was +23 at age 21.

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01-12-2013, 12:12 AM
  #321
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I agree. Kessel got his points because he played in a system that was conducive to creating offensive chances but also giving up just as many chances and when you have a full line of players who are absolute crap in their own end, thats the reason they gave up more goals than they scored and hurt the team.

Basically Carlyle isnt going to put up with that crap and is actually going to make sure Kessel puts in effort in the other zones of the hockey rink.

Trade him...let's get younger and more complete players.

Teams would pay that for Kessel to be their finishing piece, as opposed to their franchise player like we've miscast him as.
Please explain why Kessel put up so many points with less ice-time in a much more defensive system under Julien?

Kessel already played in a defensive system.

And get younger is funny. We were the second youngest team last season. How much younger do you want to get? Kessel is only 25.


First it's Kessel only scored because of the best passing centre in the game. Kessel proves everyone wrong by playing with the NHl's worst top centre and finishing 6th in league scoring, but now it's he only scored because he played in an offensive system.

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