HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Pavel Bure vs Mats Sundin

View Poll Results: Bure vs Sundin in their Prime
Pavel Bure 98 77.17%
Mats Sundin 29 22.83%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-10-2013, 05:28 PM
  #76
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I promised you and others I would have evidence Pavel was a primary contributor to the Canucks' defense and was vital to their success, especially in the 1994 playoffs. I honestly believe those who claim he was "not reliable defensively" have revised history based on the last few years of his career.

This is a 35-minute reel centered around three games between 1992 and 1994:

April 30, 1992 vs the Winnipeg Jets
March 27, 1994 vs the Los Angeles Kings
May 24, 1994 vs the Toronto Maple Leafs



I've provided a lengthy analysis in the video's discussion thread. I don't think copying and pasting here would do any good, as I hope to generate discussion on the main board:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1320293
Sure he was a key piece to their success perhaps even the most important one but primary contributor to their defense?

I could bring up the clips of Jeff Cowan and his 5 goals in 3 games and try to spin it as well.

I guess it was eastern bias that kept Bure from garnering alot of Selke praise too right?

Pretty sure most people would take Sundin defensively over his career than Bure.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 01:52 AM
  #77
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sure he was a key piece to their success perhaps even the most important one but primary contributor to their defense?

I could bring up the clips of Jeff Cowan and his 5 goals in 3 games and try to spin it as well.

I guess it was eastern bias that kept Bure from garnering alot of Selke praise too right?

Pretty sure most people would take Sundin defensively over his career than Bure.
this is the third one of these jetsalternate has done. in all three, he takes random games with i think the only criteria being that bure doesn't score a goal. in this one, it looks like he's also targeting specific seasons. but his methodology is the opposite of cherry picking good performances, as you suggest.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 03:18 AM
  #78
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
gotcha. fair point, then.


i still go with TDDM's point upthread though: better to have four excellent years, even non-consecutive ones, by a true game breaker, than 15+ very good years by a guy who's probably not going to win you a cup if he's your best guy. to me, sundin is just below that line. if it's bure vs. modano (similar but superior player), i'd honestly not know who to go with.
Bure's "gamebreaker" advantage over Sundin is so slight that Sundin's vastly superior collection of great seasons beats him. We're not talking about a compiler loser vs a superstar winner here. Both of these guys were franchise all-stars that carried teams but couldn't do it all themselves. Sundin doesn't have the youtube highlights but watching him play in my division for 15 years, he WAS the Leafs, he had a huge impact every time he got in the ice and he made them a good team even when he had wingers using him as their meal ticket. Gamebreaker Bure got his 50 spectacular goals cherrypicking on a Canucks team that looked good on paper but were pathetic on ice and had no stabilizing force. Which is what Sundin was the very definition of to his ragtag overpaid teams. And this is coming from a Habs fan, I wanted this guy to blow his knee out.

I can concede that Bure had the better high end seasons on paper, but I'd rather build a team longterm around a huge, healthy, complete center known for making his teammates score like they had no business doing over a small, one dimensional winger like Bure. I think you could plug Sundin in as the offensive centerpiece on more than a few recent Cup winners and they wouldn't miss a beat. When was the last time a player in Bure's mold led a team anywhere? St. Louis is the only one I can think of, but he brings more to the table with his all-around game and passing and that team had two star centers, including a big guy very much like Sundin. Kane is kind of similar but Toews is Chicago's backbone.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 01-11-2013 at 03:28 AM.
revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 04:45 AM
  #79
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
this is the third one of these jetsalternate has done. in all three, he takes random games with i think the only criteria being that bure doesn't score a goal. in this one, it looks like he's also targeting specific seasons. but his methodology is the opposite of cherry picking good performances, as you suggest.
Thank you. This is exactly how I select games. I've done this for two videos featuring Bure, and one featuring Alex Mogilny. In this game, I included two games in which he did not score, and one in which he scored a hat trick. It's a slight deviation, but with 35 minutes of footage here, I decided to select one game in which he scored; it also provides an accurate picture of how Bure can convert good defensive plays into lethal offensive ones, and how he can succeed at both ends of the ice simultaneously.

The video concludes with an exhibition of how his takeaways/stickwork and puck retrieval in his own zone factored into his goal-scoring success. At the end, Denis Potvin comments on perhaps 20% of Bure's goals (as a Panther circa. October 2001) resulting from takeaways. With the Canucks, the percentage would have been much higher.

My objective has been to dispute the opinion that he was "one dimensional," "a cherry picker," or "below average defensively." I've released three videos, covering nine random matches from throughout his career as a Canuck, each of which demonstrate his playmaking abilities, hockey IQ, and defensive work.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 01-11-2013 at 05:01 AM.
JetsAlternate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 08:38 AM
  #80
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Bure's "gamebreaker" advantage over Sundin is so slight that Sundin's vastly superior collection of great seasons beats him. We're not talking about a compiler loser vs a superstar winner here. Both of these guys were franchise all-stars that carried teams but couldn't do it all themselves. Sundin doesn't have the youtube highlights but watching him play in my division for 15 years, he WAS the Leafs, he had a huge impact every time he got in the ice and he made them a good team even when he had wingers using him as their meal ticket. Gamebreaker Bure got his 50 spectacular goals cherrypicking on a Canucks team that looked good on paper but were pathetic on ice and had no stabilizing force. Which is what Sundin was the very definition of to his ragtag overpaid teams. And this is coming from a Habs fan, I wanted this guy to blow his knee out.

I can concede that Bure had the better high end seasons on paper, but I'd rather build a team longterm around a huge, healthy, complete center known for making his teammates score like they had no business doing over a small, one dimensional winger like Bure. I think you could plug Sundin in as the offensive centerpiece on more than a few recent Cup winners and they wouldn't miss a beat. When was the last time a player in Bure's mold led a team anywhere? St. Louis is the only one I can think of, but he brings more to the table with his all-around game and passing and that team had two star centers, including a big guy very much like Sundin. Kane is kind of similar but Toews is Chicago's backbone.
in theory, i agree with everything you have said, except of course for the bolded comment which is of course ridiculous given that bure twice scored 60 goals on canucks teams won two division championships, one of which went farther in the playoffs than sundin's teams ever did.

but, i think i said this already upthread, not every big first line center is the kind you can win a cup with as your centerpiece. and i'm not saying this to bash sundin, who was an excellent player. but i think it's really unfortunate for his career that he didn't get to stay in quebec as sakic's second line center because i can't even imagine the hushed revered tones we'd be talking about him in if that was his career.

there is a small but clear difference between sundin and modano. but that difference is, i think, the difference between the cup winning kind of big franchise centerpiece center and the kind that unless every other piece is the perfect piece you're probably not going to win it all. during sundin's career, which cup winners are there where you could have taken out the first line center, put in sundin, and still won? other than the NJ teams, i don't think there were any. and if we transplant peak sundin onto recent cup winners, i think only anaheim (with its two franchise HHOF 30+ minute/game defensemen) applies.

whereas bure flat out scored goals in a way that sundin (and almost everyone else) didn't. "when was the last time a player in bure's mold led a team anywhere"? his track record is right there: he was the offensive centerpiece on a very good but not great team that was two goals away from a stanley cup.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 08:58 AM
  #81
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
My objective has been to dispute the opinion that he was "one dimensional," "a cherry picker," or "below average defensively." I've released three videos, covering nine random matches from throughout his career as a Canuck, each of which demonstrate his playmaking abilities, hockey IQ, and defensive work.
It is an uphill battle once the hfboards groupthink gets rolling. Several players get beat up similarly around here.

Bure wasn't nearly as bad as people portray him outside of Florida, and those teams were so awful he might as well.

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 03:52 PM
  #82
Plante
Registered User
 
Plante's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kelowna, B.C
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,706
vCash: 500
The questions in these polls should be, "WHO was the better hockey player". any other format makes people answer in a bias way. As people seem to have their own meaning of prime, and other such things.

Plante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 05:29 PM
  #83
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
Thank you. This is exactly how I select games. I've done this for two videos featuring Bure, and one featuring Alex Mogilny. In this game, I included two games in which he did not score, and one in which he scored a hat trick. It's a slight deviation, but with 35 minutes of footage here, I decided to select one game in which he scored; it also provides an accurate picture of how Bure can convert good defensive plays into lethal offensive ones, and how he can succeed at both ends of the ice simultaneously.

The video concludes with an exhibition of how his takeaways/stickwork and puck retrieval in his own zone factored into his goal-scoring success. At the end, Denis Potvin comments on perhaps 20% of Bure's goals (as a Panther circa. October 2001) resulting from takeaways. With the Canucks, the percentage would have been much higher.

My objective has been to dispute the opinion that he was "one dimensional," "a cherry picker," or "below average defensively." I've released three videos, covering nine random matches from throughout his career as a Canuck, each of which demonstrate his playmaking abilities, hockey IQ, and defensive work.
Bure absolutely was below average defensively. Wayne Gretzky was one of the best ever at causing turnovers and turning them into offense. That doesn't make him a great defensive player.

I agree with you that Bure didn't become a real cherrypicker until near the end of his tenure in Vancouver.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 05:31 PM
  #84
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Bure's "gamebreaker" advantage over Sundin is so slight that Sundin's vastly superior collection of great seasons beats him. We're not talking about a compiler loser vs a superstar winner here. Both of these guys were franchise all-stars that carried teams but couldn't do it all themselves. Sundin doesn't have the youtube highlights but watching him play in my division for 15 years, he WAS the Leafs, he had a huge impact every time he got in the ice and he made them a good team even when he had wingers using him as their meal ticket. Gamebreaker Bure got his 50 spectacular goals cherrypicking on a Canucks team that looked good on paper but were pathetic on ice and had no stabilizing force. Which is what Sundin was the very definition of to his ragtag overpaid teams. And this is coming from a Habs fan, I wanted this guy to blow his knee out.

I can concede that Bure had the better high end seasons on paper, but I'd rather build a team longterm around a huge, healthy, complete center known for making his teammates score like they had no business doing over a small, one dimensional winger like Bure. I think you could plug Sundin in as the offensive centerpiece on more than a few recent Cup winners and they wouldn't miss a beat. When was the last time a player in Bure's mold led a team anywhere? St. Louis is the only one I can think of, but he brings more to the table with his all-around game and passing and that team had two star centers, including a big guy very much like Sundin. Kane is kind of similar but Toews is Chicago's backbone.
Bure basically did get the 1999-00 Panthers to the playoffs by himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
in theory, i agree with everything you have said, except of course for the bolded comment which is of course ridiculous given that bure twice scored 60 goals on canucks teams won two division championships, one of which went farther in the playoffs than sundin's teams ever did.

but, i think i said this already upthread, not every big first line center is the kind you can win a cup with as your centerpiece. and i'm not saying this to bash sundin, who was an excellent player. but i think it's really unfortunate for his career that he didn't get to stay in quebec as sakic's second line center because i can't even imagine the hushed revered tones we'd be talking about him in if that was his career.

there is a small but clear difference between sundin and modano. but that difference is, i think, the difference between the cup winning kind of big franchise centerpiece center and the kind that unless every other piece is the perfect piece you're probably not going to win it all. during sundin's career, which cup winners are there where you could have taken out the first line center, put in sundin, and still won? other than the NJ teams, i don't think there were any. and if we transplant peak sundin onto recent cup winners, i think only anaheim (with its two franchise HHOF 30+ minute/game defensemen) applies.

whereas bure flat out scored goals in a way that sundin (and almost everyone else) didn't. "when was the last time a player in bure's mold led a team anywhere"? his track record is right there: he was the offensive centerpiece on a very good but not great team that was two goals away from a stanley cup.
I agree with every word here.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 07:51 PM
  #85
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
this is the third one of these jetsalternate has done. in all three, he takes random games with i think the only criteria being that bure doesn't score a goal. in this one, it looks like he's also targeting specific seasons. but his methodology is the opposite of cherry picking good performances, as you suggest.
Okay I will take his word on it that this was 3 random games, but it still only represnts 3 games over an NHL career of 702 games.

It also is the Bure everyone in Vanocuver wants to remember as well.

Injuries and perhaps a want to be traded divides Bure's 1st 3 Canuck seasons and his next 3.

His 1st 3 seasons in Vancouver were indeed legendary in Maurice Richard type of fashion and his passion for the game was simply outstanding.

His ability to pounce on the puck and take advantage of turnovers was great but it's a still a stretch to call him the primary contributor on defense in these 3 years.

As for the 94 run, Bure was great but n team make it to the 4th and final round and a game 7 in the SC final without huge contributions from at least a couple of players on their teams.

Overall for his career Bure wasn't even average defensively, a 3 game sample from his younger inspired time in Vancouver doesn't change that reality.

We really need to judge players on their entire careers and even if we are talking prime, 3 years doesn't cut it.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2013, 11:25 PM
  #86
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Okay I will take his word on it that this was 3 random games, but it still only represnts 3 games over an NHL career of 702 games.

It also is the Bure everyone in Vanocuver wants to remember as well.

Injuries and perhaps a want to be traded divides Bure's 1st 3 Canuck seasons and his next 3.

His 1st 3 seasons in Vancouver were indeed legendary in Maurice Richard type of fashion and his passion for the game was simply outstanding.

His ability to pounce on the puck and take advantage of turnovers was great but it's a still a stretch to call him the primary contributor on defense in these 3 years.

As for the 94 run, Bure was great but n team make it to the 4th and final round and a game 7 in the SC final without huge contributions from at least a couple of players on their teams.

Overall for his career Bure wasn't even average defensively, a 3 game sample from his younger inspired time in Vancouver doesn't change that reality.

We really need to judge players on their entire careers and even if we are talking prime, 3 years doesn't cut it.
These are randomly-selected, which has always been the premise of the project as it would provide the most accurate data. I do have more games to select from, and I can take a look at games from his later years as a Canuck, if need be. I will reserve judgment about his Panthers days for now; I have never denied Pavel perhaps being less committed to defense in Florida as I simply did not have the chance to watch him often as a Panther, and would like to investigate that in the future. I also agree he may have been less interested in defense near the end of his career, but I continue to blame Canucks management for breaking his will. The very premise of my series is to indeed randomly sample from Bure's career and observe his tendencies and performances.

I originally wanted to provide a reel demonstrating his ability to excite every time he touched the puck, which is much of what is seen in my very first video. I was not as heavily concerned about showcasing Pavel's defense as much as I was about his ability to create chances, and demonstrate his creativity and hockey IQ. Defensively, I wanted to analyze whether or not he could legitimately be called a cherry picker, and, much like in his earlier years, he simply could not. He was still as much of an end-to-end player as he was in the past, and still made some very good defensive plays.

(The first of my videos, released last June.)



When analyzing the games I had selected, it was quite obvious he was playing much better defense and contributing in many ways other than what people for the past decade had been reporting. I had watched him live and do remember him being solid defensively and sublime offensively, but the proof simply was not available. The past decade of misinformation had obscured the truth. Needless to say, the more I investigate, the more confident I am to say a lot of the assumptions being made today simply are not true. Watching these games over again and isolating Pavel's shifts has provided the details to support this.

These are games I have on file but have not looked at. As I edit, I look for every time Pavel is on the ice, reduce the footage to only Pavel's shifts, then observe how he has played that game. The writeup is the last portion I work on before releasing the video. The most recent package, in particular, I had begun to edit prior to this thread's creation. I have created three pieces featuring Bure thus far, though the latest is the first to look at how he has played without the puck, explaining its 35-minute length. All of Bure's shifts from those three games are depicted in the package.

Here's an excerpt of what I wrote in another thread regarding some of the ways Pavel contributed to the team's defense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
He was a very smart hockey player who used his skills and worked with the defense to create offense. He killed penalties, could turn the other team's powerplay against itself, and pressured the other team heavily in all zones. He kept possession away from the opposition, and was a key to their defensive zone breakout.
I will continue to build a profile of Pavel's game throughout his career if necessary. I do not strive to merely aim at the positive, as I would like to provide an accurate picture of the possible changes in Pavel's game over time, and distinguish between mere generalizations and real truths. I will likely, in the future, look at another set of games from between 1995 and 1998 to gauge Pavel's level of defense compared with yesterday's release. There is a lot more room for these sorts of videos, and I plan to look at Bure in Florida as well. I wish to create a proper continuity in terms of how he performed throughout the years. Based on the research I have done thus far, though, I truly believe it is safe to say Pavel was good defensively in his early years, and still quite good in his last years as a Canuck.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 01-12-2013 at 12:16 AM.
JetsAlternate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-12-2013, 04:25 AM
  #87
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bure basically did get the 1999-00 Panthers to the playoffs by himself.



Not really. That years he had supporting scorers scoring more points than even Sundin's were. Whitney had 70 points, about what he had been scoring before Bure, a lot of points for that era... 12 years later he's still scoring 70 points, that's a very capable scorer. Sundin wasn't working with anyone better than that during that period. They had veteran presence in Mellanby who still had gas in the tank and even went on to score almost 60 points years later, had one of the more underrated d-men of his era in Svehla, tons of veteran guys that went on to play many more years. A starting tandem that put up a .917 sp. People forget that Trevor Kidd wasn't always pathetic.

The next year, Whitney and Kozlov got hurt, veteran leader Mellanby didn't play much, minute eating veteran d-men were gone, one half of their solid tandem left and the other abruptly started sucking and never recovered, Bure kept scoring at the same incredible rate, but the Panthers bombed. That suggests to me there were many other factors contributing to the Panthers one boom year. It was a totally different dynamic, the one constant being Bure scoring like a madman. Which evidently, isn't even close to being enough.

Sundin was running wild with star winger Jonas Hoglund that same year, a worse number one d-man than Svehla and an overall less experienced D, a goaltending tandem with a worse save percentage and a weak backup, on a team with a better record. I'm not saying the Panthers were better than the Leafs, but again, I'm seeing more exaggeration of Bure's alleged "gamebreaker" factor. He was hardly doing it himself, context and examination of the actual fluctuating state of that team shows that.

Again, I don't see any evidence that Bure was some kind of gamebreaker where Sundin was an everyday star. Bure's team got closer in 1994, but close isn't winning, and the rest of his career was usually spent dreaming of the playoffs, so actually making it past the second round one year doesn't convince me he had was any more valuable than consistently contending Sundin.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 01-12-2013 at 04:31 AM.
revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-12-2013, 08:04 AM
  #88
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Again, I don't see any evidence that Bure was some kind of gamebreaker where Sundin was an everyday star. Bure's team got closer in 1994, but close isn't winning, and the rest of his career was usually spent dreaming of the playoffs, so actually making it past the second round one year doesn't convince me he had was any more valuable than consistently contending Sundin.
Bure was a much more dangerous hockey player.

And I'm a Leafs fan.

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.