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Hemsky to NJ

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Old
01-12-2013, 06:24 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
"Outlandish"? He's a 0.5 ppg "scorer" who played at -13 with only 8 PPP on the season, and he's being paid $5MM this year and $5MM next year, when the cap goes down. And he's an injury waiting to happen.
If you knew anything about the situation it would help.

1. Hemsky wasn't healthy at the start of the year...he actually took a few weeks off to rehab.
2. Hemsky was playing tentatively last year for 2/3 of the year. As if he were afraid to be hurt.
3. As soon as Hemsky took a solid hit to the shoulders and didn't feel any side effects, his season turned around. He started playing like he used to. He put up half of his points last year after this hit, which was on February 4th. Do the math, you'll see how many points he put up after he knew his body could handle a huge hit. Here's the hit, for the record.

4. -13 means nothing. The Oilers let more goals in than they scored last year, the team as a whole was minus. Hemsky isn't an amazing defensive player and never has been, but that's not his game, so its not really relevant.
5. The ".5 ppg player" was a .5 ppg player for only 1 season in his career. He's closer to a 1.0 player than a .5, so nice try picking your stats, ha ha.
6. 5 million per year isn't much for a guy who traditionally has put up around .8 ppg while being a game changer.
7. The injuries are over-stated here. His shoulder's are finally healthy, and believe it or not, aside from his two shoulder injuries, he has played at the NHL average for games played in a season over his career. So, again, nice try.
8. This was probably useless, most HF'ers ignore facts and logic.

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01-12-2013, 06:24 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
EDM fans are not talking up any DMan.. we just dont want to give up Hemsky for a Tallinder or Volchenkov .. Oilers had issues on secondary scoring last year.. Giving up Hemsky without seeing what he do with Yakupov would be stupid.
After Kovy Hemsky would probably be the biggest offensive threat for NJ .. No way you get him for Tallnder.

I have not seen Fayne play many games but judging by his ~16min TOI I am assuming he was on the 3rd pairing for NJ thus a #6. I am pretty sure not many of NJ fans who are bashing Petry have seen much of him on the Oilers.

Like I said, talk up Fayne all you want but do your homework before bashing other players.
Go look at the top lines of Florida, New York, and Philly and what they put up against the Devils at even strength in their respective series. I don't think any of Versteeg, Weiss, Fleischmann, Jagr, Giroux, Hartnell, Richards, Hagelin, or Gaborik got more than two points even strength for the entire series. Maybe one or two had like three.

Want to guess who was going up against them? Andy Greene and Mark "#6" Fayne.

Devils defensemen are incredibly underrated. Listen, I don't go around saying I know everything about your defense, to be hones but to say that none of the Devils defense is better than your guys or some of the crazy statements that have been said is foolish. It's understandable when you say that because of matchups, chemistry, and whatnot he'd play the third pairing, I get that. I get that saying that it doesn't make sense for you to trade him if for those above reasons he will play your third pairing. However, it doesn't mean he's not as good as the other guys at all.

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01-12-2013, 06:25 PM
  #103
AfroThunder396
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
last few games he played.
He was playing with a wrist injury in the Cup Finals.

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01-12-2013, 06:27 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I don't doubt for a second that Edmonton's defense will be better this year than last year.

My issue is with taking guys who were previous unknowns/avewrage guys and selectively choosing which half of a night/day season to ignore and which to use when evaluating them.

People in this thread are comparing Petry/Smid to Carlson/Alzner, and which I don't even come close to agreeing with at this point.

The only Edmonton defenseman I'd move a NJ defenseman to make room for no questions asked is Whitney. Petry and Smid certainly quality defenseman but neither would make New Jersey's top-4 at the moment. J. Schultz is a complete unknown and the rest are role players.
Smid is significantly better than Whitney. Petry was better than Whitney all year last year, significantly so in the latter half. I don't think you can call a guy who has been considered a top prospect for years and just lit up a pro league as a rookie a complete unknown either. That's 4 guys right there, no teams have anything but "role players" as bottom pair guys, ha ha.

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01-12-2013, 06:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
All hail the mighty defense of the Edmonton Oilers! Its 3x the defense of the defending Eastern Conference Champions which is apparently full of AHL schmucks and Adam Larsson. You people make me laugh.
I don't think anyone has said anything to make this seem like even an exagerration. Nobody is calling Fayne, Greene, or even Tallinder/Volchenkov AHL'ers. Nor are we saying our defense is better. We're saying that our good defensemen are better than the depth defenseman being offered to us.

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01-12-2013, 06:30 PM
  #106
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Here is the thing. No Oilers fan are debating how good Fayne, Greene, Larsson, or Salvador are, were in the playoffs, or will be in the future.

But these players are not even the players in the discussion to be traded.

I cannot see the Oilers being interested in a guy like Volchenkov because his deal is too long right now and Tallinder is a question mark going forward.

I think Oilers management would be more comfortable with our own question mark in Hemsky right now and hope for the best.

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01-12-2013, 06:31 PM
  #107
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So you're willing to go with history when discussing his health, but will only look at last year when examining production? Way to strengthen your argument.

I can see this thread will continue to spiral downward at this rate. I, much like every other Oiler fan in this thread, feel fine entering the season with our current D corps and glass Hemsky. I personally think it will only take a month to silence some of the critics, but only time will tell.
Yes, because last season is the most recent and only "full" season with the 2 shoulders he has for this season and next. Agree with you about one month- things can perhaps change and be proven (wrong) by then.

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01-12-2013, 06:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
Yes, because last season is the most recent and only "full" season with the 2 shoulders he has for this season and next. Agree with you about one month- things can perhaps change and be proven (wrong) by then.
Most recent means nothing when he was still rehabbing and not 100% for half of the year. He's certainly not a .5 ppg player like you claim. All credibility gets lost when you try to manipulate stats so blatantly.

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01-12-2013, 06:34 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think anyone has said anything to make this seem like even an exagerration. Nobody is calling Fayne, Greene, or even Tallinder/Volchenkov AHL'ers. Nor are we saying our defense is better. We're saying that our good defensemen are better than the depth defenseman being offered to us.
Are you serious? Because that's the way you're talking about them. Tallinder is not a deph defenseman...he simply has the most movable contract on our defense...thats why we offer him. He's a sturdy defenseman. And your fellow fan there called Fayne a nobody and #6 defenseman so don't try that.

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01-12-2013, 06:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Smid is significantly better than Whitney. Petry was better than Whitney all year last year, significantly so in the latter half. I don't think you can call a guy who has been considered a top prospect for years and just lit up a pro league as a rookie a complete unknown either. That's 4 guys right there, no teams have anything but "role players" as bottom pair guys, ha ha.
New Jersey doesn't.

As for J. Schultz, the list of standout college players who disappointed in the NHL is long and unspectacular. Does Matt Gilroy ring any bells?

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01-12-2013, 06:36 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think anyone has said anything to make this seem like even an exagerration. Nobody is calling Fayne, Greene, or even Tallinder/Volchenkov AHL'ers. Nor are we saying our defense is better. We're saying that our good defensemen are better than the depth defenseman being offered to us.
What exactly is that? Tallinder is apparently a depth defenseman while your defensemen are good defenseman?

The funniest part is I created this thread with one question, what would the Devils have to add to Tallinder or Volchenkov to make a deal work. Not one person answered it yet.

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01-12-2013, 06:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Most recent means nothing when he was still rehabbing and not 100% for half of the year. He's certainly not a .5 ppg player like you claim. All credibility gets lost when you try to manipulate stats so blatantly.
I did not "try to manipulate stats so blatantly."

Last year:
Pre-ASG: 36G, 19Pts, 7PPP
Post-ASG: 33G, 17Pts, 2PPP

My statements are factual, yours border on delusions.

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01-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
I did not "try to manipulate stats so blatantly."

Last year:
Pre-ASG: 36G, 19Pts, 7PPP
Post-ASG: 33G, 17Pts, 2PPP

My statements are factual, yours border on delusions.
But you are trying to say he's a .5 per game player based on one season? So according to your logic, Zajac is a .4 point per game player because he scored 6 points in 15 games. Let's judge every player off of one bad season...... Kovalchuk scored 60 points in 81 games in 2010-2011, so he's a .74 PPG player too.

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01-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
I did not "try to manipulate stats so blatantly."

Last year:
Pre-ASG: 36G, 19Pts, 7PPP
Post-ASG: 33G, 17Pts, 2PPP

My statements are factual, yours border on delusions.
Calling a player who is close to a ppg player a .5 ppg player is clearly manipulating stats. My statements are based on actually watching the games and analyzing the situation of a player, not reading stat pages and chat board conjecture.

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01-12-2013, 06:43 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
New Jersey doesn't.

As for J. Schultz, the list of standout college players who disappointed in the NHL is long and unspectacular. Does Matt Gilroy ring any bells?
Matt Gilroy was also undrafted.

Justin Schultz is widely known to have a skill-level that is thought to surpass that of former Wisconsin teammate Jake Gardiner, which is not too shabby.

But I'm sure you know what you were talking about....

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01-12-2013, 06:46 PM
  #116
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But you are trying to say he's a .5 per game player based on one season? So according to your logic, Zajac is a .4 point per game player because he scored 6 points in 15 games. Let's judge every player off of one bad season...... Kovalchuk scored 60 points in 81 games in 2010-2011, so he's a .74 PPG player too.
It's the one season he's played with the 2 shoulders he has for this season and next. He's not the same guy he was before the injuries. You can delude yourself otherwise but the Devils hopefully won't.

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01-12-2013, 06:46 PM
  #117
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What exactly is that? Tallinder is apparently a depth defenseman while your defensemen are good defenseman?

The funniest part is I created this thread with one question, what would the Devils have to add to Tallinder or Volchenkov to make a deal work. Not one person answered it yet.
Yes, Tallinder is a depth defenseman. He has been for years.

Smid, Petry and Whitney are good defenseman. Justin Schultz is probably one. The closest parallel to Tallinder that we have, Nick Schultz, while a good player, is a depth defenseman, just like Tallinder.

I answered your question with "a price you won't pay". If that's not good enough, then take your pick of these:

- first round pick in 2014 (that I don't think you have)
or
- David Clarkson

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01-12-2013, 06:49 PM
  #118
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Matt Gilroy was also undrafted.

Justin Schultz is widely known to have a skill-level that is thought to surpass that of former Wisconsin teammate Jake Gardiner, which is not too shabby.

But I'm sure you know what you were talking about....
Do you really want me sit here and list all of the highly regarded prospects that ended up busting in the NHL?

I don't think J. Schultz will bust, but I also don't think he's going to score 30 points in 48 games his rookie year and lead you guys to the promised land like some posters in this thread are suggesting. Crowning him a legitimate top-4 guy before he plays his first game is setting yourself up for disappointment.

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01-12-2013, 06:49 PM
  #119
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In the 6 years before last, Hemsky scored 331 points in 360 games. That's .92 points per game. His contract only has 2 years left on it. I would take him on the Devils right now, and if Fayne is the cost, I have no problem with it.

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01-12-2013, 06:49 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
It's the one season he's played with the 2 shoulders he has for this season and next. He's not the same guy he was before the injuries. You can delude yourself otherwise but the Devils hopefully won't.
You are still neglecting that he was still rehabbing those shoulders in that season, so its not an accurate assessment. You are right in that we don't know exactly how effective he will be now that he is 100%, but he certainly isn't going to be as bad as he was last season. The fact is though, that the Oilers aren't going to sell low based on the chance that Hemsky doesn't bounce back the way he should.

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01-12-2013, 06:50 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Do you really want me sit here and list all of the highly regarded prospects that ended up busting in the NHL?

I don't think J. Schultz will bust, but I also don't think he's going to score 30 points in 48 games his rookie year and lead you guys to the promised land like some posters in this thread are suggesting. Crowning him a legitimate top-4 guy before he plays his first game is setting yourself up for disappointment.
After watching him play in the AHL, I don't think its unrealistic to expect him to be a 2nd pair d-man as a rookie.

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01-12-2013, 06:50 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Yes, Tallinder is a depth defenseman. He has been for years.

Smid, Petry and Whitney are good defenseman. Justin Schultz is probably one. The closest parallel to Tallinder that we have, Nick Schultz, while a good player, is a depth defenseman, just like Tallinder.

I answered your question with "a price you won't pay". If that's not good enough, then take your pick of these:

- first round pick in 2014 (that I don't think you have)
or
- David Clarkson
My god Henrik Tallinder is not a depth defensemen. 2nd pairing guy and when he was in Buffalo, want to know why Tyler Myers had so much success? Henrik Tallinder.

That's why Buffalo wants him back

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01-12-2013, 06:52 PM
  #123
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After watching him play in the AHL, I don't think its unrealistic to expect him to be a 2nd pair d-man as a rookie.
Are you kidding? You're using AHL numbers to rank a guy who hasn't played one game in the NHL?

Based on this Mathieu Darche should be the next sidney crosby, after all he does well in the AHL, right ?

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01-12-2013, 06:53 PM
  #124
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My god Henrik Tallinder is not a depth defensemen. 2nd pairing guy and when he was in Buffalo, want to know why Tyler Myers had so much success? Henrik Tallinder.

That's why Buffalo wants him back
Your definition of a depth defenseman must differ from mine. Depth defensemen aren't awful defensemen, but they aren't top end either. Tallinder is 34, not the player he was on Buffalo, although still good, but he isn't more than a depth player at this point, and a downgrade on Smid/Whitney/Petry and probably Justin Shultz as well.

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01-12-2013, 06:56 PM
  #125
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Are you kidding? You're using AHL numbers to rank a guy who hasn't played one game in the NHL?

Based on this Mathieu Darche should be the next sidney crosby, after all he does well in the AHL, right ?
No, I'm not using his numbers at all. I'm using the way he plays the game, the speed at which he moves and makes decisions, the crispness of his passes and the fact that he is that much better than everyone else he has played against, including some young NHL defensemen. Watching games >>>>>>> reading stat pages.

Your Mathieu Darche statement is retarded, its not even close to the same thing. There is a reason that Darche hasn't made it in the NHL. I don't see any reason when watching Schultz play, unlike other career AHL'ers like your Darche or A. Giroux, etc. All those guys have significant things lacking in their game. Schultz doesn't appear to.

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