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Cory Schneider

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Old
01-12-2013, 10:08 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I don't see why a Cory Schnieder trade would be that much different from the Halak or Varlomov trade as far as value and return.

As far as young, solid starting goaltenders go in the NHL... Schnieder has got to be behind Quick, Price, Rask, Halak, Varlomov...then, you have guys in their later 20's or early 30's like Kari Lehtonen, Pekka Rinne, Miller, Lundqvist Ward...I mean, all of these guys are better than Schnieder.

I think goalie-needy teams would pay a Halak/Varlomov price but not much more - anything else is too much when they can pay less for a Jonathan Bernier/Anders Lindbach type and potentially get the same result.
Just for reference sake, near everyone in the hockey world thought Montreal was ripped off for Halak. Gauthier had a horrid habit of trading players to one specific team and refused to drive up the market. Evidence of this is clearly shown when Cammalleri was quite literally pulled from a game and traded. Varlomov was traded for what many perceived would be borderline lottery picks. Colorado simply played beyond expectations and Washington took a gamble.

While I do not believe Schneider would command a Kane type player. His return would be significantly higher than Halak or Varlomov for the simple reason his scenario is different, and more in favor of the Canucks.

I, for one, would take Gardiner + Frattin/Kadri. Maybe add something else but I am not hung up on it.

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01-12-2013, 10:09 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Luongo will be 34 April.

Luongo's contract is for 12 years, only 3 years less than Rick DiPietro's contract, takes him until he is 43 and gives him a full no trade clause. Lu has definitely been a great goalie but I don't think you have to be a crazy leafs fan to determine that his contract is ridiculous. Better, younger goalies, like Pekka Rinne get locked up by their teams for less term than that.

The decline question is fair as well considering his shaky, mentally weak playoff performances. He would probably rebound and do well with a fresh start but with that kind of term it's a big risk.
Rinnie is cheaper too at just $7m a year.

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01-12-2013, 10:16 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Just for reference sake, near everyone in the hockey world thought Montreal was ripped off for Halak. Gauthier had a horrid habit of trading players to one specific team and refused to drive up the market. Evidence of this is clearly shown when Cammalleri was quite literally pulled from a game and traded. Varlomov was traded for what many perceived would be borderline lottery picks. Colorado simply played beyond expectations and Washington took a gamble.

While I do not believe Schneider would command a Kane type player. His return would be significantly higher than Halak or Varlomov for the simple reason his scenario is different, and more in favor of the Canucks.

I, for one, would take Gardiner + Frattin/Kadri. Maybe add something else but I am not hung up on it.
I wouldn't trade Schneider for something based around Gardiner. It would have to be a young stud that could fill a positional need(like Couturier would start at 3C, Huberdeau on Kesler's wing, etc.), imo.

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01-12-2013, 10:20 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Just for reference sake, near everyone in the hockey world thought Montreal was ripped off for Halak. Gauthier had a horrid habit of trading players to one specific team and refused to drive up the market. Evidence of this is clearly shown when Cammalleri was quite literally pulled from a game and traded. Varlomov was traded for what many perceived would be borderline lottery picks. Colorado simply played beyond expectations and Washington took a gamble.

While I do not believe Schneider would command a Kane type player. His return would be significantly higher than Halak or Varlomov for the simple reason his scenario is different, and more in favor of the Canucks.

I, for one, would take Gardiner + Frattin/Kadri. Maybe add something else but I am not hung up on it.
What has Schneider done thus far that is better than what Halak and Varlomov did at the point in their careers when they were traded?

Neither Halak or Varlomov had carried a team for a full season, but both were young, had shown flashes of strong play and had great playoff performances. That seems in line with what Schnieder has done thus far.

I know everything on this board revolves around the Leafs, but guys like Jake Gardiner aren't included in trades like these. The Jackets don't trade Ryan Johansen. The Panthers don't trade Jonathan Huberdeau. The Islanders don't trade Ryan Strome. The Rangers don't trade Chris Krieder. It doesn't happen and won't happen, especially for a goalie who is still an unproven commodity.

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01-12-2013, 10:22 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
What has Schneider done thus far that is better than what Halak and Varlomov did at the point in their careers when they were traded?

Neither Halak or Varlomov had carried a team for a full season, but both were young, had shown flashes of strong play and had great playoff performances. That seems in line with what Schnieder has done thus far.

I know everything on this board revolves around the Leafs, but guys like Jake Gardiner aren't included in trades like these. The Jackets don't trade Ryan Johansen. The Panthers don't trade Jonathan Huberdeau. The Islanders don't trade Ryan Strome. The Rangers don't trade Chris Krieder. It doesn't happen and won't happen, especially for a goalie who is still an unproven commodity.
And the Canucks don't trade Cory Schneider, just like the rest of the unproven commodities you listed.

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01-12-2013, 10:28 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
It's an overpayment.
I'm still a firm believer that you need something in the top 7 or 8 of the draft in a good year and a bit more. This year I thought you could make a case for him even up for picks 2 through 5.

If I was edmonton I would have traded that pick for Schneider in a heart beat.

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01-12-2013, 10:28 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
What has Schneider done thus far that is better than what Halak and Varlomov did at the point in their careers when they were traded?

.
Won AHL goalie of the year, won the jennings trophy in the NHL and the presidents trophy two years running.

Won the western conference championship and played in the Stanley cup finals.

Neither of the other two goalies you mentioned had the pedigree Schneider has going up through the ranks either. Its comparing apples to oranges. Schneider grew up on the smaller NHL ice to boot.

Schneiders greatest strength is his mental toughness and it does not grow on trees. Few goalies have it. Its difficult to compare Schneider because he is so unflappable.

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01-12-2013, 10:31 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
And the Canucks don't trade Cory Schneider, just like the rest of the unproven commodities you listed.
Right...but this is a thread about what Cory Schnieder's value would be if was so...

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01-12-2013, 10:36 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Won AHL goalie of the year, won the jennings trophy in the NHL and the presidents trophy two years running.

Won the western conference championship and played in the Stanley cup finals.

Neither of the other two goalies you mentioned had the pedigree Schneider has going up through the ranks either. Its comparing apples to oranges. Schneider grew up on the smaller NHL ice to boot.

Schneiders greatest strength is his mental toughness and it does not grow on trees. Few goalies have it. Its difficult to compare Schneider because he is so unflappable.
This logic makes no sense. By this mindset, you could say Keith Ballard was a great defenseman because he won the presidents trophy and played in the finals.

Again, if you look at my posts I'm not knocking Schneider at all. But he is not even among the top 15 goalies in the league as of right now, although he has shown a lot and appears to have great potential.

Your pedigree or AHL awards mean nothing in the NHL trade market. Martin St. Louis doesn't have a great "pedigree" that doesn't mean he hasn't been one of the highest valued players in the league the last decade.

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01-12-2013, 10:37 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Right...but this is a thread about what Cory Schnieder's value would be if was so...
So if he were to be traded it would be for another great, young prospect like that at a different position.

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01-12-2013, 10:41 PM
  #211
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Rielly, Kadri, 1st for Schneider? Are you kidding me? Some canuck fans are even saying no? That's hilarious. Nuck fans, how about you let Schneider actually play a full season as a number one before overrating him that severely.

He's a good goalie, but come on.
which of those pieces have played a full season?

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01-12-2013, 10:54 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
So if he were to be traded it would be for another great, young prospect like that at a different position.
Cory Schnieder is going to be 27 this spring. He is not a "young prospect" and no team would trade a guy they think is their future franchise star for him.

I don't see how using the framework of similar situations with similar players is unrealistic.

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01-12-2013, 10:59 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Cory Schnieder is going to be 27 this spring. He is not a "young prospect" and no team would trade a guy they think is their future franchise star for him.

I don't see how using the framework of similar situations with similar players is unrealistic.
Goalies typically start playing in the NHL, and retire, later than skaters at other positions. Markstrom, the best goalie prospect in the league is currently 22, will finish this season in the AHL, play backup for a year or two afterwards, and assume starting duties at 25. Given that Schneider has been playing behind Luongo, him winning the starting job at 26 is pretty impressive, to say the least.

Brodeur, Thomas, Vokoun, Nabokov, Kiprusoff, Backstrom, etc, have all played well into their late 30s. Relatively few skaters maintain a high level performance at that age.


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01-12-2013, 11:02 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Cory Schnieder is going to be 27 this spring. He is not a "young prospect" and no team would trade a guy they think is their future franchise star for him.

I don't see how using the framework of similar situations with similar players is unrealistic.
Maybe no other teams want to trade a young star for him, but why would we trade Schneider for anything less? I think you're really far off base when you say a guy like Jake Gardiner wouldn't be traded for Schneider. Personally speaking there's no way I make that trade.

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01-12-2013, 11:06 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Goalies typically start playing in the NHL, and retire, later than skaters at other positions. Markstrom, the best goalie prospect in the league is currently 22, will finish this season in the AHL, play backup for a year or two afterwards, and assume starting duties at 25. Given that Schneider has been playing behind Luongo, him winning the starting job at 26 is pretty impressive, to say the least.
I'm don't disagree with anything you're saying. But the idea that a team would trade the top two guys in its system PLUS a 1st for him is a joke. That is a fan's pipe dream.

The closest I can think of to something like that would be the Kings parting with Simmonds and Braydon Schenn for Mike Richards.

the return for Halak or Erik Johnson or James Neal are closer to reality.

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01-12-2013, 11:10 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I'm don't disagree with anything you're saying. But the idea that a team would trade the top two guys in its system PLUS a 1st for him is a joke. That is a fan's pipe dream.

The closest I can think of to something like that would be the Kings parting with Simmonds and Braydon Schenn for Mike Richards.

the return for Halak or Erik Johnson or James Neal are closer to reality.
I don't expect any team to give up that much. Doesn't mean I have to accept it. For me to want to pull the trigger, it should be a similarly unproven but high-potential forward.

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01-12-2013, 11:13 PM
  #217
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Maybe no other teams want to trade a young star for him, but why would we trade Schneider for anything less? I think you're really far off base when you say a guy like Jake Gardiner wouldn't be traded for Schneider. Personally speaking there's no way I make that trade.
Because you have to get rid of one of the goalies. They simply cannot co-exist together. This is similar to why Montreal had to make a decision to trade Halak over Price. They didn't want to trade Halak given the way he played in the playoffs, but felt that the locker room would be divided if they had kept both of them. As a result, St. Louis took advantage and the best they were able to get for Halak was L. Eller.

I think this might be the same with Vancouver. No matter who they trade, whether it's Luongo or Schneider, they will not be getting someone like M. Reilly in return.

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01-12-2013, 11:13 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Maybe no other teams want to trade a young star for him, but why would we trade Schneider for anything less? I think you're really far off base when you say a guy like Jake Gardiner wouldn't be traded for Schneider. Personally speaking there's no way I make that trade.
You wouldn't trade Schnieder and aren't going to.

If you did, I'm just saying what I think his value would be realistically, based on the actual NHL trade market, which I thought was the point of this thread.

Kadri/Gardiner + a 1st is what was suggested.

I don't even like those guys, but they are still two prospects taken in the first round, plus another first rounder (THREE FIRST ROUNDERS) I can't think of any recent example of that kind of value being sent one way in a trade, ever...the closest I can think of is Schenn and Simmonds for Richards, or Voracek and a 1st for Jeff Carter


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01-12-2013, 11:27 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
You wouldn't trade Schnieder and aren't going to.

If you did, I'm just saying what I think his value would be realistically, based on the actual NHL trade market, which I thought was the point of this thread.

Kadri/Gardiner + a 1st is what was suggested.

I don't even like those guys, but they are still two prospects taken in the first round, plus another first rounder (THREE FIRST ROUNDERS) I can't think of any recent example of that kind of value being sent one way in a trade, ever...the closest I can think of is Schenn and Simmonds for Richards, or Voracek and a 1st for Jeff Carter
I was referring to this.

Quote:
I know everything on this board revolves around the Leafs, but guys like Jake Gardiner aren't included in trades like these.

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01-12-2013, 11:27 PM
  #220
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Why am I surprised to find so many like you who do nothing but run down every single Canuck player.

They're all either too old, too young, unproven, overachieving, on the decline, overpaid, on bad contracts, almost UFA's, overrated or chokers. It's a roster full of crap no sensible GM would bother trading anything of value for.

It's the same in every single thread on the main board ... it's bizarre.
What? Go back and read my posts...I haven't run down Schneider at all. He's a solid young goaltender and has a lot of potential, I haven't said otherwise.

How is comparing his value to that of Jaroslav Halak an insult?

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01-12-2013, 11:35 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
This logic makes no sense. By this mindset, you could say Keith Ballard was a great defenseman because he won the presidents trophy and played in the finals.

Again, if you look at my posts I'm not knocking Schneider at all. But he is not even among the top 15 goalies in the league as of right now, although he has shown a lot and appears to have great potential.

Your pedigree or AHL awards mean nothing in the NHL trade market. Martin St. Louis doesn't have a great "pedigree" that doesn't mean he hasn't been one of the highest valued players in the league the last decade.
Its my opinion you pick out the facts you personally want to believe from a subjective viewpoint and ignore the facts that dont fit what you want to believe.

There is no point in trying to discuss a topic with someone if there is no actual baseline of mutual understanding.

Schneider isnt proven? Reilly, Kadri and any conditional first are even LESS proven by a long shot than Schneider is. They all could end up busts for all we know. Vancouver takes a way bigger gamble in that trade.

And the bottom line is you cant START OFF an discussion with a pre determination of how you want to conclude the argument like you are giving an oral argument in a court room. Its not helpful to anyone and ends up spinning around in circles.

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01-12-2013, 11:44 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
What? Go back and read my posts...I haven't run down Schneider at all. He's a solid young goaltender and has a lot of potential, I haven't said otherwise.

How is comparing his value to that of Jaroslav Halak an insult?
I removed my post after I realized I attributed an earlier post to you. You somehow got to reply in the 30 or so seconds it took me to realize my mistake. That's quick!

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01-12-2013, 11:47 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Its my opinion you pick out the facts you personally want to believe from a subjective viewpoint and ignore the facts that dont fit what you want to believe.

There is no point in trying to discuss a topic with someone if there is no actual baseline of mutual understanding.

Schneider isnt proven? Reilly, Kadri and any conditional first are even LESS proven by a long shot than Schneider is. They all could end up busts for all we know. Vancouver takes a way bigger gamble in that trade.

And the bottom line is you cant START OFF an discussion with a pre determination of how you want to conclude the argument like you are giving an oral argument in a court room. Its not helpful to anyone and ends up spinning around in circles.
What are you talking about?

First, I don't think Van should trade Schnieder. Second, they aren't going to. This is a trade thread about what his value would be if they did - and all I've done is equate what his value would be on the market to other goalie trades, like the Halak trade and Varlomov trade.

Has Schnieder been a full time, starting goalie for 2 or 3 straight seasons consistently at a high level? No, he hasn't. He isn't Pekka Rinne or Henriq Lunquist or Cary Price. He could be, but as of now, he isn't.

Again, I have no opinion on Kadri and could care less about the Leafs. I was just saying, teams usually don't trade first round picks PLUS their top prospect PLUS a solid young player in one deal - in fact, that pretty much never happens. None of that is a knock on Cory Schnieder.

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01-12-2013, 11:48 PM
  #224
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I removed my post after I realized I attributed an earlier post to you. You somehow got to reply in the 30 or so seconds it took me to realize my mistake. That's quick!

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01-12-2013, 11:50 PM
  #225
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Rinnie is cheaper too at just $7m a year.
Only 7 mil per year? He must be winning multiple cups and Vezina's .

According to this theory, if Rinne gets 7 mil, then Schneiders 4mil is a huge steal therefore makes him worth at least 10 first rounders.


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