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Old
01-11-2013, 01:42 PM
  #376
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The most logical thing here is to put Tangradi on the open hole on Malkin's line. Cooke is in his 30s and isn't getting any better. TK is a gunner and a third liner, he is not even close to an ideal fit there.

If things don't work out with Tangradi, at least you know he isn't an answer and to keep looking. If he meshes well, you have a big playmaker on a line with two finishers and one of your winger problems solved.

I'm just not sure if DB sees it that way, especially when games mean so much more than usual.
Agreed 100%. We already know who Cooke is and while effective, he's not ideal in that role. IMO we already know what TK is and have seen, in limited doses, his lack of cohesion as a complimentary winger to Sid and Geno. Tangradi is the wildcard and he needs to be given that opportunity.

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01-11-2013, 01:42 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Correct and how many of those have been mishandled? Tangradi is the only one.
Well, if we're only talking about mishandling, sure. But there's more to it than that. The blueliners have had their path blocked, to the point where now we have to decide whether to keep them or expose them to waivers and lose them for nothing. At least in the case of Strait and Bortuzzo. That's not a good situation when you also wanna find out more about Despres, Dumoulin et al.

It's a complex issue.

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01-11-2013, 01:47 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well, if we're only talking about mishandling, sure. But there's more to it than that. The blueliners have had their path blocked, to the point where now we have to decide whether to keep them or expose them to waivers and lose them for nothing. At least in the case of Strait and Bortuzzo. That's not a good situation when you also wanna find out more about Despres, Dumoulin et al.

It's a complex issue.
I agree it's complex. I guess I just don't have a problem with Despres and Dumo staying in the AHL this year. Injuries will happen and one or both will see time in the NHL. Dump Lovejoy (that's the real wildcard to me in terms of what they will do) and have Strait and Bort battle for 6 and 7. Then in the offseason or before deadline as part of package, trade one of Strait or Bort (my preference is Strait). Then next year promote Despres to full time spot.

I don't see an issue in terms of mishandling development. The potential issue is drafting so many D and the logjam it will create. I want to wait to see how it plays out over the next year before I criticize coaching/management.

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01-11-2013, 02:23 PM
  #379
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well, if we're only talking about mishandling, sure. But there's more to it than that. The blueliners have had their path blocked, to the point where now we have to decide whether to keep them or expose them to waivers and lose them for nothing. At least in the case of Strait and Bortuzzo. That's not a good situation when you also wanna find out more about Despres, Dumoulin et al.

It's a complex issue.
I don't think anyone is more frustrated than me in terms of lack of fwd development with this org. I started following the Jacks in '94 as a kid, because prospect development just fascinated me, being a young player myself.

Its been almost 20 years now and the Pens have developed only one legit top 6 guy (Malone) in that time. Staal was never a top 6 guy and Malkin and Crosby would of been top 6ers on any team, obviously.

It is almost mindboggling when I think about it, but this org has been lucky enough to have some of the best players in the world to carry the offense, and some great/lucky moves (trades, waiver wire) to land top 6 guys.

However, I'm just trying to be patient and look at things from all angles. Tangradi and BB are two legit kids, so if both of these guys have their development screwed up, then I'll have something to say. Until then, I'm just telling myself that DB and Shero are highly intelligent hockey minds and to trust them.

I just prefer to focus on the positive.

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01-11-2013, 02:34 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I don't disagree that they could and possible should have giving Morrow a few games. However, in the grand scheme of his development, it's not a big deal either way. They decided to give him the camp experience and then send him back to juniors. Now he is in the AHL and, from all accounts, has shown that he needs some more development time. So what's the big deal?

This season and next will be telling. All I'm saying is let's be patient and see how it plays out.
In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal with respect to Morrow.

In terms of supporting those who contend that Bylsma lacks the patience with and commitment to young players, Morrow illustrates that case quite well.

Until the Pens won the cup, they were a team and an organization defined by and committed to youth, limitless potential, and talent. It's not the same organization now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The most logical thing here is to put Tangradi on the open hole on Malkin's line. Cooke is in his 30s and isn't getting any better. TK is a gunner and a third liner, he is not even close to an ideal fit there.

If things don't work out with Tangradi, at least you know he isn't an answer and to keep looking. If he meshes well, you have a big playmaker on a line with two finishers and one of your winger problems solved.

I'm just not sure if DB sees it that way, especially when games mean so much more than usual.
Well, Bylsma has become, if anything, a wonderful regular season coach.

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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I agree it's complex. I guess I just don't have a problem with Despres and Dumo staying in the AHL this year. Injuries will happen and one or both will see time in the NHL. Dump Lovejoy (that's the real wildcard to me in terms of what they will do) and have Strait and Bort battle for 6 and 7. Then in the offseason or before deadline as part of package, trade one of Strait or Bort (my preference is Strait). Then next year promote Despres to full time spot.

I don't see an issue in terms of mishandling development. The potential issue is drafting so many D and the logjam it will create. I want to wait to see how it plays out over the next year before I criticize coaching/management.
Fair enough. Just remember, in 2009-2010, the excuse was cup hangover. We said that going into 2010-2011, then Sid and Geno got hurt. We said it last year, but you've had the Sid excuse (I suppose). No more excuses as far as I'm concerned.


Last edited by shureshot66: 01-11-2013 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Triple-post.
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Old
01-11-2013, 02:49 PM
  #381
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Fair enough. Just remember, in 2009-2010, the excuse was cup hangover. We said that going into 2010-2011, then Sid and Geno got hurt. We said it last year, but you've had the Sid excuse (I suppose). No more excuses as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed.

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01-11-2013, 02:53 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Agreed.
Seriously, this is another reason that I'm torn on the value we put on some of these prospects and future picks. Fact is, with all of these 'top' prospects, maybe half or so make the league, and a fraction of those ever make significant impacts.

I just hope that Shero doesn't continue to be so married to the potential of some of these prospects or what he could get with a high pick that he loses sight of the fact that few, if any, of those assets will make a significant impact before Geno turns 30.

The Hossa deal was a huge gamble. Looks better now because nobody materialized, but it was huge. The price he paid for Gill wasn't cheap given how Gill was playing. The Whitney for Kunitz deal: Sounds great now, but, at the time, he was trading one of his top d-men for a winger for Sid and with the hope that Letang really was going to step up.

I haven't seen THAT Ray Shero since the Pens won the cup.

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01-11-2013, 03:27 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Seriously, this is another reason that I'm torn on the value we put on some of these prospects and future picks. Fact is, with all of these 'top' prospects, maybe half or so make the league, and a fraction of those ever make significant impacts.

I just hope that Shero doesn't continue to be so married to the potential of some of these prospects or what he could get with a high pick that he loses sight of the fact that few, if any, of those assets will make a significant impact before Geno turns 30.

The Hossa deal was a huge gamble. Looks better now because nobody materialized, but it was huge. The price he paid for Gill wasn't cheap given how Gill was playing. The Whitney for Kunitz deal: Sounds great now, but, at the time, he was trading one of his top d-men for a winger for Sid and with the hope that Letang really was going to step up.

I haven't seen THAT Ray Shero since the Pens won the cup.
Now this I can get behind. I'm optimistic that now we have the prospects to make a deal this deadline and that Shero won't sit on his hands. Time will tell.

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01-11-2013, 03:56 PM
  #384
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So we're back to the point where we're convinced Tangradi likely was destined to be a more-than-competent Top-6 winger if only the organization hadn't mishandled him?

Seems like just a 10 months ago the best thing I could say about him is that for once, he didn't stand out as being useless on the ice. Not that he was close to being votes even the third star of the game, mind you, just that he didn't seem awful.

I had hope for him from the day we made the Whitney trade. I still haven't completely given up on him, but he hasn't done anything with what little he has been given.

At no point since he joined the franchise has he played so well that he forced coaches to change how they use him to get him on the ice more often and in more offensive situations.

He might not have deserved to get such small-potatoes roles on this team, but he hasn't earned anything more than that to this point.

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01-11-2013, 04:43 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Seriously, this is another reason that I'm torn on the value we put on some of these prospects and future picks. Fact is, with all of these 'top' prospects, maybe half or so make the league, and a fraction of those ever make significant impacts.

I just hope that Shero doesn't continue to be so married to the potential of some of these prospects or what he could get with a high pick that he loses sight of the fact that few, if any, of those assets will make a significant impact before Geno turns 30.

The Hossa deal was a huge gamble. Looks better now because nobody materialized, but it was huge. The price he paid for Gill wasn't cheap given how Gill was playing. The Whitney for Kunitz deal: Sounds great now, but, at the time, he was trading one of his top d-men for a winger for Sid and with the hope that Letang really was going to step up.

I haven't seen THAT Ray Shero since the Pens won the cup.
I wouldnt say Shero has gone all out the last while, but he did make 2 very large and important trades in the past couple seasons.

1) He traded an expendable Gogo into Neal and Niskanen. Obviously this trade has worked out very well. Hard to believe the sticking point for Shero was to get a d-man back in the deal when most Pens fans would have been happy with Neal for Gogo.

2) He traded Staal. Yes he made him an offer, but myself along with id say a number of people did not think he was going to pull the trigger. I thought he was going to play the year out with one last kick with the big 3 then try again to re-sign him at seasons end. This was a bold move for Shero. This was a #2 overall pick and his first as a GM. On the surface, id say most fans are happy with the return.

He hasnt pulled off a super ballsy deadline deal in awhile if thats what your referring to, but i dont think he has sat back since winning the cup

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01-11-2013, 04:58 PM
  #386
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TSN projections have Bennett outscoring Kennedy

Must have some inside scoop on the Pens top-6 lineup

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?ID=84332

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01-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #387
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There is a guy named Tatar in Detroit. It looks like they don't have a place for him in the main team. And he's pretty good winger. Perhaps Pens could trade him for a defense prospect.

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01-11-2013, 06:44 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Hottubber View Post
I wouldnt say Shero has gone all out the last while, but he did make 2 very large and important trades in the past couple seasons.

1) He traded an expendable Gogo into Neal and Niskanen. Obviously this trade has worked out very well. Hard to believe the sticking point for Shero was to get a d-man back in the deal when most Pens fans would have been happy with Neal for Gogo.

2) He traded Staal. Yes he made him an offer, but myself along with id say a number of people did not think he was going to pull the trigger. I thought he was going to play the year out with one last kick with the big 3 then try again to re-sign him at seasons end. This was a bold move for Shero. This was a #2 overall pick and his first as a GM. On the surface, id say most fans are happy with the return.

He hasnt pulled off a super ballsy deadline deal in awhile if thats what your referring to, but i dont think he has sat back since winning the cup
Both trades were important, but neither were close to risks. The Staal deal, he had no choice. The Gologoski deal, he was trading his #5 defenseman during a season when Despres showed incredible promise at the camp going into the season. Gogo, as you said, was a valuable but completely expendable asset.

What I really meant is that Ray Shero went from a risk taking GM before the Pens won the cup to a risk averse GM after the Pens won the cup.

Put another way: At last year's trade deadline, the Pens needs were exactly like their needs before the 2008 trade deadline. Geno was rocking with two wingers who had been or were slotted for Sid. Sid needed wingers. The defense needed to add a stay at home presence.

In 2008, Shero gave up a first, a second, another late pick, Espo (who, granted, became **** but, at that time, has been a first the year before), and two guys in Armstrong and Christensen who I'd equate value wise to a Kennedy. He gave all that up to rent Hossa and for Gill for an extra year (Gill, at the time, lest we forget, was playing horrible hockey). He went for it.

In 2012, Shero stood pat, even though he had more assets to work with.

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01-11-2013, 06:49 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by mrzeigler View Post
So we're back to the point where we're convinced Tangradi likely was destined to be a more-than-competent Top-6 winger if only the organization hadn't mishandled him?

Seems like just a 10 months ago the best thing I could say about him is that for once, he didn't stand out as being useless on the ice. Not that he was close to being votes even the third star of the game, mind you, just that he didn't seem awful.

I had hope for him from the day we made the Whitney trade. I still haven't completely given up on him, but he hasn't done anything with what little he has been given.

At no point since he joined the franchise has he played so well that he forced coaches to change how they use him to get him on the ice more often and in more offensive situations.

He might not have deserved to get such small-potatoes roles on this team, but he hasn't earned anything more than that to this point.
He played well enough in camp following the cup win. He tore it up with Sid and Kunitz. But, that was Guerin's spot, and Bylsma preferred to put Fedotenko and Dupuis with Malkin.

Honestly, I've got no clue if he can be something or if he's a bust. What I do know is that where before the Pens won a cup you had an organization willing to give young players a shot even if the roster had its fill of low priced vets, that hasn't been the case since the Pens won the cup.

Tangradi at 2009 camp is an example. BUT, IMO, it's Morrow at last year's camp, when the Pens were going into the season with Orpik on IR, that was the most egregious example. IMO, the only difference between Letang at 2006 camp and Morrow at 2011 camp is that Therrien told Shero something like 'let's keep him and see how he does' and Bylsma preferred to play Lovejoy.

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01-11-2013, 06:50 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Now this I can get behind. I'm optimistic that now we have the prospects to make a deal this deadline and that Shero won't sit on his hands. Time will tell.
We had them last year too.

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01-11-2013, 08:00 PM
  #391
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just caught up on the last three pages of this discussion. If you switched Shady's avatar to Kramer I would probably think I was losing my mind and blackout posting all day or something. Good discussion folks.

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01-11-2013, 10:33 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Seriously, this is another reason that I'm torn on the value we put on some of these prospects and future picks. Fact is, with all of these 'top' prospects, maybe half or so make the league, and a fraction of those ever make significant impacts.

I just hope that Shero doesn't continue to be so married to the potential of some of these prospects or what he could get with a high pick that he loses sight of the fact that few, if any, of those assets will make a significant impact before Geno turns 30.
I certainly agree with you that it is time Shero gets aggressive.
But as for being married to the potential of the kids, I think we also have to consider the possibility (well... fact, IMO) that they're just not as valuable (in terms of trade value) as what many here would think before they've made a mark on the NHL. We don't want him to let these kids go for a pittance either.

I am much more concerned that our free agency moves consistently miss the boat as regards the qualities we are short on. Within the Crosby/Malkin era, it has been that way since Jordan Leopold was signed. We get good/very good players if played in the right roles and with the right complimentary qualities around them, but the ones we get are too much like the ones we have and 'complementarity' seems an unknown word. Exasperated by Bylsma then making absolutely sure that pairings are more dependent on seniority than what fits.

As for development of youngsters... particularly forwards.... I can only agree with Jiggy and others. It is a pretty rough track record.
But until I see just a hint that we are prioritizing development also, it is really difficult to be hopeful that Bylsma will change... on that or any other note.

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01-11-2013, 10:41 PM
  #393
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There is a guy named Tatar in Detroit. It looks like they don't have a place for him in the main team. And he's pretty good winger. Perhaps Pens could trade him for a defense prospect.
I'm not high on Tatar. He has tons of heart but he's weak and undersized.

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01-11-2013, 10:48 PM
  #394
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When I here tearing down a player, and building him back up from this team, I'm pretty much giving them a black mark to start off. This organization isn't really suited to rebuild players from the ground up and it shows.

I last heard this term used about, Morrow.

Why tear down players when you can just have them tweak instead. It's totally looking like they ruined, ET. And I hope they don't ruin, Morrow. I really want this kid up soon.

Basically they take all their efforts away from what they do well and focus it on the task they want them to be.

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01-12-2013, 03:26 AM
  #395
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i would like to see beau play on crosby wing

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01-13-2013, 12:04 PM
  #396
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Quote:
Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie

Most interesting battle in PIT camp is who gets to play wing with Malkin and Neal. Eric Tangradi, Dustin Jeffrey and Beau Bennett in hunt.
hmm, I wonder if he's leaving out TK because he's the expected guy there thus doesn't need to hunt, or because he's not likely to be there

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01-13-2013, 12:16 PM
  #397
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hmm, I wonder if he's leaving out TK because he's the expected guy there thus doesn't need to hunt, or because he's not likely to be there
Too bad he didnt say something along the lines of "Pens actively looking to trade for top 6 winger"

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01-13-2013, 12:21 PM
  #398
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hmm, I wonder if he's leaving out TK because he's the expected guy there thus doesn't need to hunt, or because he's not likely to be there
Could Bylsma actually be breaking his stubbornness about rookies/youngsters? Or will we see a vet grinder on that line after all is said and done?

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01-13-2013, 12:25 PM
  #399
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Could Bylsma actually be breaking his stubbornness about rookies/youngsters? Or will we see a vet grinder on that line after all is said and done?
I'm calling Cooke taking that spot.

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01-13-2013, 12:27 PM
  #400
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Okay, the season is back, I am back...and so are my capgeek fantasies.

Hear me out...

Martin for whatever we can get.

TK for Murray

Offer sheet Jamie Benn if Joe can't get him signed. $6.5/6yrs. We can handle the cap hits this year. Benn slides in to a 2C role if Sid or Geno ever go down. Worst case, we see a Neal-Benn-Malkin Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis top 6 if we need a center presence for Geno.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jamie Benn ($6.500m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Eric Tangradi ($0.726m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.525m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,599,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,700,667

But what about resigning Letang and Malkin!!!!??? No worries.

Malkin signs for the same cap hit to follow suit with Sid. When Letang is up, so is Orpik. We trade or let Orpik go and let a prospect take over. That money goes to Letang. Kunitz, Cooke, and Duper are also up. Kunitz is let go, Tangradi takes over. Cooke and Duper are resigned for $1mil/2yr. Adams goes away, as does Glass. The money saved on Kunitz helps resign Sutter.

So then...in 2014, the line up looks like...

Benn(6.5)-Crosby(8.7)-Bennett(.9k)
Tangradi(1.5)-Malkin(8.7)-Neal(5)
Cooke(1)-Sutter(3.5)-Dupuis(1)
Grinder(.75)-Vitale(.9)-Grinder(.75)

Letang(6.5)-Despres(.84)
Morrow/Dumoulin/Harrington(.89/.9/.89
Niskanen(2.5)-Engo(1)

MAF(5)
Zatkoff(.525)

Cap: 57,365,000
Space: 6.935...just enough to bring in a Top pairing dman.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....I'm proud of myself.

Can't get the numbers to change on

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