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Old
01-13-2013, 10:11 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Leafs already had Grabo and Kulemin. Bozak may be an upgrade on Stajan but he's not a top 6 C on a contender unless your 1C is Crosby. Leafs also had Schenn, so he didn't exactly get JVR out of thin air. If anything Schenn would have fetched a better player if he was developed properly.

Given that he had 4 years, multiple top 10 picks, tons of other draft picks and unlimited financial resources that top 6 is nowhere nearly good enough. You could have hired a blind goat like Edmonton did and ended up with a far better top 6. Or a defense that's not completely and utterly dysfunctional and needs a massive overhaul.
Better than JVR? Doubtful. JVR is young and was drafted higher than Schenn.

Ad Schenn actually did develop. People for get how good he was in 10-11'.

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01-13-2013, 10:12 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by hefsbeaver View Post
[/B]


well he wasnt even the gm after Burke left so I'm not too sure why you would call it that. The only time Burke did anything good (winning the cup with Anahiem) he was handed that team and made 1 or 2 small moves, and look at anahiem since...... I personally do not think that Burke is a good GM, he has worked at the league offices before so I could see him doing something along those lines
1 or 2 moves? Where are people getting this? The Anaheim roster was very bad when he took over and in a short time he made a lot of changes.

The idea Anaheim was "Close" when Burke took over is laughable. They were a 76 point, non-playoff team. He replaced 100% of the defense.

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01-13-2013, 10:14 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Gillis has shown to be a very shrewd GM.

- Acquiring Booth for Sturm and Samuelsson.
- Picking up Higgins and Lapierre on the cheap.
- Great extensions for Henrik, Daniel, Burrows, Kesler, and (IMO) Luongo.
- Acquiring Ehrhoff for nothing.
- Signing Malhotra, Samuelsson, and Hamhuis on the FA market while avoiding bad contracts.
- Signing Lack and Tanev.

IMO he's a top-tier GM.
Gillis had his best players handed to him. Why should people not give Burke credit for winning a cup, yet give Gillis so much credit for not doing so? If it wasn't for Burke and Nonis' moves, Vancouver would be nowhere.

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01-13-2013, 01:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
1 or 2 moves? Where are people getting this? The Anaheim roster was very bad when he took over and in a short time he made a lot of changes.

The idea Anaheim was "Close" when Burke took over is laughable. They were a 76 point, non-playoff team. He replaced 100% of the defense.
Pronger... pshhttttt

Neidermayer... pshttttt

Selanne.. pshttt

3 Superstars... pshtttttttttttttttttttt

What people dont understand is that Leaf fans have NO reason to defend him anymore. He is no longer our GM. This is the time we normally turn around and say "He sucked, Nonis is wayyyyyyyy better. Glad he's gone!"

But we are not. I dont care what anyone says, if he gets a team with any talent he will do a good job. I personally hope he goes to columbus (NOT CALGARY!!), he can turn that club around.

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01-13-2013, 01:47 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Gillis had his best players handed to him. Why should people not give Burke credit for winning a cup, yet give Gillis so much credit for not doing so? If it wasn't for Burke and Nonis' moves, Vancouver would be nowhere.
You don't know that. Or at least wording it like that is unfair to Gillis. Gillis inherited a #1 goalie and three first line forwards. Outside extending them on team-friendly deals (which he did) and setting up a solid supporting cast (which he's routinely done, including adding two years of Ehrhoff, a top-pair d-man, for nothing) he really hasn't had to acquire star talent.

I suspect based in the efficiency he's shown that Gillis would succeed if his situation were to change and he needed to pursue top talent.

Bryan Murray left Anaheim with Giguere, Bryzgalov, Perry, Getzlaf, McDonald, Kunitz, Lupul, and Penner. The Ducks would have been nowhere without those guys, but nobody really credits him with the Cup win, and rightfully so - despite the talent, he made poor decisions in rounding out the roster.


Last edited by inthewings: 01-13-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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01-13-2013, 01:53 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
Columbus is a team that could really use him, plus he would be inheriting some young talent and they might end up with another high pick this year.

i just have to think that Burke who is great at trading (he had a bad one but overall his record is solid) would have gotten a better return for Nash.

in addition his work in the community in Columbus would really help spread the game there.
He would be awful in Columbus. They got a respected guy like John Davidson in there, the last thing Davidson is going to do is hire a clown like Burke. Burke's problem is that he cares about Burke first, the media second, the team third.

Hard to have a GM that does things like institute his own personal trade freezes and other things that offer no advantage other than to just call attention to himself

I could see Buffalo hiring him since I think Pegula probably blows it up if they don't win it this year and they are a team that wants headlines

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01-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
That's the point, you traded a struggling 5th overall pick for a struggling 2nd overall pick, who was initially less valued than Schenn. Also most of JVRs struggles are injury related while it seemed Schenn went off the rails because Wilson didn't do his development any good.

That said, at the moment JVR is more valuable than Schenn. The fact that LSchenn is BSchenn's brother got Holmgren to overpay, just like the fact that EStaal is JStaal's brother got Rutherford to give up way more than JStaal is worth.

For comparison, look at Alzner. 5th overall in a weaker draft, much less hype coming in than Schenn. At 18 Schenn is rushed into the NHL and has a good season, Alzner is brought along slowly but steadily with tons of time in the minors. As a result now he's a legitimate top pairing defensive defenseman and a much better player than Schenn.
Not burke's fault, he wasnt there when schenn made the team. I think had burke been GM then, schenn wouldnt have made the team. I cant really prove this but I dont think that there has ever been an 18yo that made the team under burke (could be wrong though)
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Everyone says how horrible he is. He is hardly overrated.
Agreed. Just go through this thread. Outside of leaf fans, all I read is "he will never have a job again". Hardly overrated imo.
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Originally Posted by guyzeur View Post
I'm not so sure he is an elite trader. I know he was able to take huge amount of salary back in some trades because the Leafs are loaded.

I would like to see him a smaller market.
Burke sucked balls in his UFA signings in toronto, but at trading he was amazing.

The Kessel deal sucked, but had he properly estimated his team and UFA signings (Komi, Beauch) those picks would have been 2 8-12 picks (like TSN, SNET, ESPN estimated us to finish). That would have been a good trade.

Putting that aside though, look at some of the other trades he made
Beauchimen for Lupul +Gardiner
Phaneuf + (Ashton) +Sjoestrom for White, Stajan, Hagman, and someone else
Schenn for JVR
Kaberle for 1st, 2nd, Colborne
2nd from kaberle deal for Liles (who is better than kaberle)
Lebda and slaney for Franson and Lombardi
Toskola +Blake for Giguere
Stalberg + Didomenico +Paradis for a 1st +3rd (Basically Im combining the two versteeg deals)

Seguin will be a similarly elite player to kessel, so we lost hamilton and knight. But I think he made up for that when you consider the acquisitions of Phaneuf, Gardiner, Lupul, etc.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so you can think what you like. My problem is whenever someone thinks of burke, they just think about the kessel trade and his media banter. He has done so much more than that. Many people also call him a clown, but he has made huge initiations to support gay rights, has slept on the streets to raise money for the homeless, and has forced all his players to make charities and get involved in the community. Next team will be happy with him and Im very sad that we lost him.

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01-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #83
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I am gonna call it now. After yet another season of mediocrity Snow will finally be let go. He was a good drafter but failed to ice a competitive team. With Burke available I say the Isles jump on the opportunity before someone else does.

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01-13-2013, 02:00 PM
  #84
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Burke is a finisher. His an elite trader as well. A team that is on cusp of taking the next step or needs to would be perfect for Burke.
He is not an elite trader. He has a track record that includes some good moves and some terrible, franchise changing blunders like the Kessel trade

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01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Many people also call him a clown, but he has made huge initiations to support gay rights, has slept on the streets to raise money for the homeless, and has forced all his players to make charities and get involved in the community.
None of those things helped the Maple Leafs. The fact that he is also so public about his charity work shows he does it a lot for the attention as well.

Obviously, it is great that he does charity work and supports gay rights but that's not the job of a GM - you don't hire a GM to march in pride parades, you hire him to build a winning team. The Leafs were paying him a gigantic salary and let him spend to the cap and he failed miserably, doing charity work on the side doesn't make up for that

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01-13-2013, 02:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post

Beauchimen for Lupul +Gardiner
Phaneuf + (Ashton) +Sjoestrom for White, Stajan, Hagman, and someone else
Schenn for JVR
Kaberle for 1st, 2nd, Colborne
2nd from kaberle deal for Liles (who is better than kaberle)
Lebda and slaney for Franson and Lombardi
Toskola +Blake for Giguere
Stalberg + Didomenico +Paradis for a 1st +3rd (Basically Im combining the two versteeg deals)
Bolded are fantastic. The rest are mediocre at best though (at least until JVR breaks out). I've never really considered the Phaneuf trade a great one though. Not bad, but IMO there are many teams out there who wouldn't be interested at a $6.5 million cap hit.

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01-13-2013, 02:10 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
None of those things helped the Maple Leafs. The fact that he is also so public about his charity work shows he does it a lot for the attention as well.
The only one he went out of his way for extra publicity for was gay rights... and that is kind of the whole point. When your teams means as much to your community as the Leafs do, Yeah that stuff is important.

No GM would have turned this team around in the time he had.
We are better and our future has not looked this good in a long time. Still lots left to do but acting like Burke did nothing is just ********.

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01-13-2013, 02:12 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
He is not an elite trader. He has a track record that includes some good moves and some terrible, franchise changing blunders like the Kessel trade
He is a top trader, if you don't agree then good for you. What his not, is a great talent evaluator. If those 1st picks turned out to be 12-15+, it would of been a steal of a trade. He screwed up because he mis-evaluated leafs talent and the ufa signings.


Last edited by Sonny21: 01-13-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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01-13-2013, 02:12 PM
  #89
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I've never really considered the Phaneuf trade a great one though. Not bad, but IMO there are many teams out there who wouldn't be interested at a $6.5 million cap hit.
No team with our money and cap space thinks that trade was not robbery by us.

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01-13-2013, 02:16 PM
  #90
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No team with our money and cap space thinks that trade was not robbery by us.
He's a nice player, and the deal worked out well for the Leafs, for the reasons you state. I just don't consider it robbery. You had the cap space and money to overpay a good player and took him off the hands of a team that wasn't interested in overpaying him.

The big tragedy here is that Calgary took the cap space and did exactly nothing productive with it.

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01-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #91
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The only one he went out of his way for extra publicity for was gay rights... and that is kind of the whole point. When your teams means as much to your community as the Leafs do, Yeah that stuff is important.

No GM would have turned this team around in the time he had.
We are better and our future has not looked this good in a long time. Still lots left to do but acting like Burke did nothing is just ********.
You have two overpaid, mediocre defensemen (Phanuef, Liles) and two solid wingers who will be due massive raises on the market in a couple years (Kessel and Liles).

You have literally no good centers, no elite center prospects, no goaltending.

Do you really optomism over Jake Gardiner and Reily is enough to show for a four year GM tenure?

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01-13-2013, 02:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Bolded are fantastic. The rest are mediocre at best though (at least until JVR breaks out). I've never really considered the Phaneuf trade a great one though. Not bad, but IMO there are many teams out there who wouldn't be interested at a $6.5 million cap hit.
Ironic a vancouver fan is saying that considering what they say about luongos contract.

Phaneuf is ranked a top 25 defenseman by hfboards. Hes not perfect but hes a big upgrade over white. And if all we payed for that upgrade is a bunch of nhlers struggling to maintain an nhl job (stajan hagman etc) then I consider it a solid trade. The cap hit doesnt bother me that much. We can afford it.

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01-13-2013, 02:22 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
You have two overpaid, mediocre defensemen (Phanuef, Liles) and two solid wingers who will be due massive raises on the market in a couple years (Kessel and Liles).

You have literally no good centers, no elite center prospects, no goaltending.

Do you really optomism over Jake Gardiner and Reily is enough to show for a four year GM tenure?
JML is paid 3million per year. How is that overpaid.....

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01-13-2013, 02:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Ironic a vancouver fan is saying that considering what they say about luongos contract.

Phaneuf is ranked a top 25 defenseman by hfboards. Hes not perfect but hes a big upgrade over white. And if all we payed for that upgrade is a bunch of nhlers struggling to maintain an nhl contract (stajan hagman etc) then I consider it a solid trade. The cap hit doesnt bother me that much. We can afford it.
I'm not a Vancouver fan.

And I'm not saying it was a bad addition. In the Leafs situation it made sense. I just don't consider Phaneuf @ $6.5 million to be all that valuable a contract. Decent addition? Yes. Robbery? I don't see it.

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01-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #95
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01-13-2013, 02:27 PM
  #96
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He's a nice player, and the deal worked out well for the Leafs, for the reasons you state. I just don't consider it robbery. You had the cap space and money to overpay a good player and took him off the hands of a team that wasn't interested in overpaying him.

The big tragedy here is that Calgary took the cap space and did exactly nothing productive with it.
Exactly.

Plus, every GM wins trades. Scott Howson has won trades. He won the trades with Ottawa when he was able to get Vermette and dump Pascal Leclaire. He won the trade where he got Umberger. He dumped an AHL guy like Kris Russell and got a productive Nikita Nikitn. He traded a KHL-bound Zherdev for Tyutin.

But no one in their right mind is going to call Scott Howson an elite GM. You can't judge a GM by one or two draft picks, or one or two trades in a vacuum. You have to judge the GM's work as a whole, and as a whole, Burke has hurt the Leafs in the present as their GM (not winning) and future more (tradingnpicks and making bad picks) than he helped it.

You can look at the Jackets roster and and prospects and at least say hey, long term, Johansen, Moore,

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01-13-2013, 02:32 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
You have two overpaid, mediocre defensemen (Phanuef, Liles) and two solid wingers who will be due massive raises on the market in a couple years (Kessel and Liles).

You have literally no good centers, no elite center prospects, no goaltending.

Do you really optomism over Jake Gardiner and Reily is enough to show for a four year GM tenure?
Top 10 in goals last year with no centers and just 2 solid wingers.
Get a grip, kid.

Yeah we have big holes to fill.
But we have 2 Centers that are at least equal to anyone left on your team.

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01-13-2013, 02:33 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
JML is paid 3million per year. How is that overpaid.....
He makes 3.8 million, is average at best, and is 33 years old. It's not like he's some cornenstone piece for the future. He's an older 2nd pairing defensmen. Leafs should've kept the 2nd rounder. It was a move to boost short term wins and help the playoffs, which it didn't, and again, hurt the future (losing a 2nd rounder)

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01-13-2013, 02:35 PM
  #99
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Top 10 in goals last year with no centers and just 2 solid wingers.
Get a grip, kid.

Yeah we have big holes to fill.
But we have 2 Centers that are at least equal to anyone left on your team.
Grabo is probably the best player on either team, but I'd take several players on Columbus over Bozak.

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01-13-2013, 02:37 PM
  #100
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Grabo is probably the best player on either team, but I'd take several players on Columbus over Bozak.
lol I love Grabo as much as the next guy.. but Phil Kessel is pretty good at hockey.


And I was talking about Kadri.

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