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Penguins 2013 (and beyond) lineup discussion | Contract chart in Post #1

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01-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #726
mr sidney crosby
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Did anybody hear of the penguins having interest in corey perry? My friend said that and i was just wondering.

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01-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post


I want Iginla, but not by trade. We need to keep our young assets to remain competitive long-term. No way do I want to move guys like Pouliot + Harrington + whatever to get Iginla, when we have as good a chance as any team to sign him as a UFA a few months later.
that doesn't help us this year though.

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Not for a lack of trying though.
that's great. I'd be ok with trying to re-sign Iginla too. But the trade is for this playoff run.

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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Did anybody hear of the penguins having interest in corey perry? My friend said that and i was just wondering.
everyone has interest in corey perry. Including the team he is already on.

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01-13-2013, 01:37 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Pick87your71Poison View Post
I don't understand how Shero doesn't get credit for that deal because it wasn't enough of a "risk". Are we trying to make good deals or just take risks because I'd damn well just make great trades. By that logic if Shero makes 5 more deals like the Neal deal and we're absolutely loaded, he doesn't get credit for not pushing his hand and taking a big risk. Maybe he should trade Malkin for a boatload of blue chip prospects and #1's. Very risky and could win us multiple cups in 5 years so at least he gets credit for trying.
So, trade Morrow for Bobby Ryan and then make two more deals like that. No risk, no problem . . . oh yeah, we can't do that yet. So, let's wait three years until we can, assuming all of these Pens prospects pan out. Of course, that means doing less in terms of Sid's and Geno's chances to win a cup in the next three years, but, you know, better safe than sorry when it comes to these prospects, right?

Seriously, I'm not 'not crediting' Shero for the Gologoski trade. It was a great trade. Ideally, a GM could make 2-3 of them a year. But, realistically, a GM, if he's lucky, might be able to make 2-3 of them a decade.

Usually, you have to make a decision: Do you take a risk, like the Hossa deal because you THINK you're ready to make a cup run or like trading one of your top three defensemen for a decent winger for Sid and a little cap flexibility because you THINK Letang is ready to make more of an impact.

Am I supposed to credit Shero, who built a cup winner taking some risks like that, for three years of risk aversion and early playoff exits thereafter?

Sorry, I can't do that.

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01-13-2013, 01:37 PM
  #729
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Well sure, a no lose proposition is better than not having to take a risk. Tell me how many cup winners have been built entirely with no lose propositions.
We aren't built entirely with no lose deals either so I don't get your point. What were the big risks taken by LA or Boston?

PS: I'm not against him taking risks. I also disagree with the safety of the Neal/Goligoski trade. It wasn't Hossa risky. But it was every bit of Kunitz/Whitney riskey.

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01-13-2013, 01:41 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Did anybody hear of the penguins having interest in corey perry? My friend said that and i was just wondering.
Like Ogre said, everyone has interest in him, but there hasn't been anything from the Pens (that I've seen, at least) publicly saying we are chasing him, yet.

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01-13-2013, 01:42 PM
  #731
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Can teams pick them up?
I imagine they can but I'd be shocked if any of them were.

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01-13-2013, 01:43 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by Marns View Post
Like Ogre said, everyone has interest in him, but there hasn't been anything from the Pens (that I've seen, at least) publicly saying we are chasing him, yet.
very very highly doubt he's available.

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01-13-2013, 01:44 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
So basically, you want to criticize Shero for making a great, big time trade that minimized risk and paid off incredibly well.

I don't really want my GM making risky trades all the time just for the sake of making risky trades. Only a panicky idiot does that with a contender. We have a lot going right for us, we don't need to shake the foundation every deadline.



Yep, KIRK's playing a bit fast and loose with the facts there.
1. So, which time was Shero a panicky idiot, 2008 or last year? Both times, you had Sid coming back from an injury and the team absolutely flying, looking primed for a cup run. He needed winger help and the defense needed a stable defensive presence. In 2008, he had fewer assets to deal, and he dealt a pair of Kennedy caliber guys, his previous year's first, a first, a second, and a fourth for an elite rental winger, a rental role player, and a defenseman with another year on his deal who was playing like absolute garbage at the time. Last year, with more assets at his disposal, he stood pat.

2. Kind of counterintuitive, if you ask me, to suggest that a GM has to be willing to take risks is the equivalent of wanting a GM to take risks all the time. I'd settle for Shero taking a risk ONCE, which is something he hasn't done of his own volition since the Pens won the cup.

3. Gogloski was 3rd on the team in ice time because of some injuries and PP time, no. What was his ES time when EVERYONE was healthy? Orpik played with Letang. Martin played with Michalek, which means Golgoski was #5 on the depth chart (oh, and by the way, that preseason, Despres had killed it in camp). So, Shero dealt the #5 defenseman on his depth chart for a legit, young 30 goal scoring winger and a young #5 defenseman who'd been a first round pick. Yeah, that sure was risky.

You want to argue against Shero taking a specific risk, then that's fine. But, stripped of all disguise, it's pretty clear that your position is that anything riskier than a Gologoski for Neal and Niskanen type of deal is idiotic.

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01-13-2013, 01:44 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by LetsGoPens70 View Post
Do you guys think Lupul would be a trade option? I think he's a ufa at the end of the season, so if they're out of the playoffs he might become available.
I doubt it. Toronto is lacking in top 6 players... and are deep on the blueline. I don't see a fit there.

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01-13-2013, 01:49 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
We aren't built entirely with no lose deals either so I don't get your point. What were the big risks taken by LA or Boston?

PS: I'm not against him taking risks. I also disagree with the safety of the Neal/Goligoski trade. It wasn't Hossa risky. But it was every bit of Kunitz/Whitney riskey.
LA dealt Jack Johnson for Jeff Carter in the HOPE that Voynov was ready for a significant playoff role. THAT deal was like the Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi deal. You're HOPING something works out as part of the equation (namely, that Letang steps up).

Boston, if memory serves, moved Wideman for Horton in the hope that other young defensemen could fill the void, no?

What was the HOPE in the Gogogoski deal at the time? That Neal could score 30 with Sid or Geno? Nobody doubted that. That Gologoski's contribution couldn't be replaced? Again, on a fully healthy roster, he was the #5 defenseman on the depth chart.

EDIT: And, again, I'll ask the question: How were the Pens different in 2008 versus last season? Sid coming back from injury, needing wingers. The defense needed a stay at home presence. In 2008, Shero went for it. Last year? Anyone? Heck, even look at 2010. Maybe you can argue 'the guys weren't available', but this idea that Shero has taken ONE risk of his own volition since the Pens won the cup is belied by the record.

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01-13-2013, 01:50 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
very very highly doubt he's available.
Alright, thanks for the information. I wasn't sure if it was true or not.

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01-13-2013, 01:50 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. So, which time was Shero a panicky idiot, 2008 or last year? Both times, you had Sid coming back from an injury and the team absolutely flying, looking primed for a cup run. He needed winger help and the defense needed a stable defensive presence. In 2008, he had fewer assets to deal, and he dealt a pair of Kennedy caliber guys, his previous year's first, a first, a second, and a fourth for an elite rental winger, a rental role player, and a defenseman with another year on his deal who was playing like absolute garbage at the time. Last year, with more assets at his disposal, he stood pat.

2. Kind of counterintuitive, if you ask me, to suggest that a GM has to be willing to take risks is the equivalent of wanting a GM to take risks all the time. I'd settle for Shero taking a risk ONCE, which is something he hasn't done of his own volition since the Pens won the cup.

3. Gogloski was 3rd on the team in ice time because of some injuries and PP time, no. What was his ES time when EVERYONE was healthy? Orpik played with Letang. Martin played with Michalek, which means Golgoski was #5 on the depth chart (oh, and by the way, that preseason, Despres had killed it in camp). So, Shero dealt the #5 defenseman on his depth chart for a legit, young 30 goal scoring winger and a young #5 defenseman who'd been a first round pick. Yeah, that sure was risky.

You want to argue against Shero taking a specific risk, then that's fine. But, stripped of all disguise, it's pretty clear that your position is that anything riskier than a Gologoski for Neal and Niskanen type of deal is idiotic.
James Neal never scored 30 goals before coming here and Matt Niskanen was playing beyond terrible hockey for them. We traded for a one time 25 goal scorer and take some of their dead weight for them. I'm not saying it was a big risk. It was a hockey trade. But you are looking at it with some hindsight for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
LA dealt Jack Johnson for Jeff Carter in the HOPE that Voynov was ready for a significant playoff role. THAT deal was like the Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi deal. You're HOPING something works out as part of the equation (namely, that Letang steps up).

Boston, if memory serves, moved Wideman for Horton in the hope that other young defensemen could fill the void, no?

What was the HOPE in the Gogogoski deal at the time? That Neal could score 30 with Sid or Geno? Nobody doubted that. That Gologoski's contribution couldn't be replaced? Again, on a fully healthy roster, he was the #5 defenseman on the depth chart.
And we were HOPING that Niskanen could fill the spot left open by trading Goligoski.

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01-13-2013, 01:52 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
Ogrezilla said it perfectly

As a rental it's got to be a Hossa-esque package of a top prospect (Beau Bennett goes home?), a #1 pick, and some pieces of lesser prospects/3rd line types?
1. Agreed. And, I'd pay it.

2. Now, THAT would be called taking a risk.

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01-13-2013, 01:53 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
James Neal never scored 30 goals before coming here and Matt Niskanen was playing beyond terrible hockey for them. We traded for a one time 25 goal scorer and take some of their dead weight for them. I'm not saying it was a big risk. It was a hockey trade. But you are looking at it with some hindsight for sure.



And we were HOPING that Niskanen could fill the spot left open by trading Goligoski
Oh come on, do you really equate that? If you do, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I'll just hope the stars align for Shero to make another two Gologoski style deals before Sid turns 30.

Oh, by the way, name a person who thought the Gologoski deal was bad for the Pens. When nobody questions a deal, it's not exactly risky, is it?

EDIT: I don't want to get lost in semantics in all of this. I just see a complete change in Shero's aggressiveness or willingness to take risks after the Pens won the Cup. Maybe it's justified.

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01-13-2013, 01:55 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Oh come on, do you really equate that? If you do, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I'll just hope the stars align for Shero to make another two Gologoski style deals before Sid turns 30.
who is suggesting we do that? You tend to be overly dramatic when someone disagrees with you. And I don't even really disagree with you. I am for Shero taking a risk if that's all that is available.

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01-13-2013, 01:56 PM
  #741
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I imagine they can but I'd be shocked if any of them were.
Patrick Maroon, Cedrick Desjadins and Ben Maxwell are players I would like on WBS.

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01-13-2013, 02:00 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
who is suggesting we do that? You tend to be overly dramatic when someone disagrees with you. And I don't even really disagree with you. I am for Shero taking a risk if that's all that is available.
Well, Rowdy did suggest that anyone like me who would like to see a GM take ONE risk really wants the GM to take risks all the time.

As for you, it sounds then like we're really arguing over whether the Gogo deal was a risk. I'll put it this way: If it was, then it was as risk free an impact move that a GM can make, far less risky than the Hossa deal and less risky than the Whitney deal in that we were hoping to replace a 2/3 defenseman, not a guy who was fifth on the depth chart on a fully healthy defensive roster. Better?

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01-13-2013, 02:01 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
EDIT: I don't want to get lost in semantics in all of this. I just see a complete change in Shero's aggressiveness or willingness to take risks after the Pens won the Cup. Maybe it's justified.
I think there is a significant change in circumstances the last two years. In 2011, Sid and Geno were both hurt. You keep mentioning that last year and 2008 Sid was coming back from an injury, but to compare those injuries is pretty much ludicrous. He was out for a few months in 2008 with an ankle sprain. He was out for over a year with a concussion and a spinal injury last year. He had already tried and failed to make a comeback once. Sid wasn't even playing at the time of the trade deadline, was he? Its apples and oranges.

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01-13-2013, 02:02 PM
  #744
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I think Shero stockpiled on D after using alot of our higher picks in deadline deals in years past purely to set himself up well cap wise and to be able to acquire longterm solutions on wing. Iggy isn't necessarily longterm, but he's certainly our answer this year. And as Jiggy said, he definitely has a few years of elite hockey left in him.

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01-13-2013, 02:03 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, Rowdy did suggest that anyone like me who would like to see a GM take ONE risk really wants the GM to take risks all the time.

As for you, it sounds then like we're really arguing over whether the Gogo deal was a risk. I'll put it this way: If it was, then it was as risk free an impact move that a GM can make, far less risky than the Hossa deal and less risky than the Whitney deal in that we were hoping to replace a 2/3 defenseman, not a guy who was fifth on the depth chart on a fully healthy defensive roster. Better?
sure. Though Whitney was playing like hot garbage for quite a while leading up to the trade. Really, I think the Whitney/Kunitz trade was a lot less risky than you are making it out to be.

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01-13-2013, 02:04 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
sure. Though Whitney was playing like hot garbage for quite a while leading up to the trade. Really, I think the Whitney/Kunitz trade was a lot less risky than you are making it out to be.
I didn't see it as THAT risky, although I did see it as riskier than the Gologoski deal. That's all.

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01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #747
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I didn't see it as THAT risky, although I did see it as riskier than the Gologoski deal. That's all.
I wouldn't really use one over the other to justify seeing a complete change in his style of GMing. The Hossa trade was really his only high risk move. At the time, getting rid of Whitney's cap hit was worth something by itself.

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01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #748
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1. Agreed. And, I'd pay it.

2. Now, THAT would be called taking a risk.
Crosby-Perry and Malkin-Neal as longterm pairings on the top two lines would be a beautiful thing! Of course after that trade we'd still have to convince Perry to stay around haha

In all honesty any move is a risk. You could trade for a really good player and they might not fit your system or don't develop chemistry with the other players on the team. They didn't come in via trade but just look at Martin and Michalek, both played much better at their previous teams than they have in Pittsburgh.

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01-13-2013, 02:06 PM
  #749
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Patrick Maroon, Cedrick Desjadins and Ben Maxwell are players I would like on WBS.
if you pick them up then they have to be in Pittsburgh not WBS.

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01-13-2013, 02:07 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think there is a significant change in circumstances the last two years. In 2011, Sid and Geno were both hurt. You keep mentioning that last year and 2008 Sid was coming back from an injury, but to compare those injuries is pretty much ludicrous. He was out for a few months in 2008 with an ankle sprain. He was out for over a year with a concussion and a spinal injury last year. He had already tried and failed to make a comeback once. Sid wasn't even playing at the time of the trade deadline, was he? Its apples and oranges.
Fair point, and honestly the only way we're going to know if I'm right is if Shero stands relatively pat again. If he makes a move, we won't know if he was looking for the right gamble OR if his being forced to move Staal changed the equation.

That said, we've been talking about the heat being on Bylsma. It should be on Shero too. IMO, this team goes out too early again, and Bylsma is gone and Shero is on thin ice. I don't know if Bylsma will coach like a guy who knows that; I suspect (hope ) that Shero will manage like a guy who does.

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