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How to determine the draft order? (Mod: random order wins)

View Poll Results: How would you prefer the draft order to be determined?
Determine the draft order randomly like past ATDs 17 73.91%
Determine the draft order with the new proposed system 6 26.09%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-13-2013, 02:21 PM
  #26
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Why can't we vote on it though? Nobody opposed it at the time? They did it the same way its done every year. I don't understand the "it was hastly done" arguement. It was the same as every year. Just create a vote?

If other gm's think it wasn't done properly they can vote to have a redo. Its the only fair option.
That's why it was so stupid to have it done. There's no purely honest way to resolve this. If somebody likes where they landed in the draft order, why would they vote to redo the process? If somebody doesn like their spot, why vote to keep it?

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01-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #27
BenchBrawl
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Here's the logical reason to re-do it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar
One of the good reason for this is to make sure everybody who is voting on random vs choice is doing so in the most objective way possible without having a draft spot to reject or protect.If the previous order is maintained , it is more a ''do I want to keep my spot or not'' poll instead of a real system preferance.

What I'm saying is if we have a vote on a draft order system while people know their draft order , they aren't choosing between the real options but between changing or keeping their current draft position , which destroys the purpose of the poll altogether.

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01-13-2013, 02:27 PM
  #28
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Here's the logical reason to re-do it:
Why are you requoting yourself? The only fair option is to have a poll to determine if we keep the current order (which was a random draw)

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01-13-2013, 02:31 PM
  #29
vecens24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Why can't we vote on it though? Nobody opposed it at the time? They did it the same way its done every year. I don't understand the "it was hastly done" arguement. It was the same as every year. Just create a vote?

If other gm's think it wasn't done properly they can vote to have a redo. Its the only fair option.
No one had time to oppose it. VanI made a unilateral decision to PM him and twenty minutes later the draft order was released. I would have VEHEMENTLY stopped it had I been online.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's why it was so stupid to have it done. There's no purely honest way to resolve this. If somebody likes where they landed in the draft order, why would they vote to redo the process? If somebody doesn like their spot, why vote to keep it?
And that's the reason we really can't re-vote on it.

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01-13-2013, 02:32 PM
  #30
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Why are you requoting yourself? The only fair option is to have a poll to determine if we keep the current order (which was a random draw)
Fairness has nothing to do with all of this , we decided to have a poll about the draft system and in order to protect the objectivity of this vote we have no choice but to re-do the draft order.The unfortunate situation of having to take away a good draft spot from some GMs is the consequence of a few people having done the lottery in a very rushed and unilateral way.

I'm re-quoting myself because you asked a reason and I didn't want to re-type all of it.

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01-13-2013, 02:37 PM
  #31
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re-doing the draft order is no problem for me and keeping is of no problem either. We are picking at 29th and I have already pmed my partner about which players could be available then. It's not a big deal to be frank.

I don't understand why every topic of discussion turns into a ruckus. There are two topics of intrests in this draft.

Topic A. Trade rules. Make a poll, decide and execute.

Topic B. How to organize the draft order. Make a poll, vote, execute.

Problem solved (with the exception of the trade rules which will have a second discussion)

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Old
01-13-2013, 02:38 PM
  #32
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Fairness has nothing to do with all of this , we decided to have a poll about the draft system and in order to protect the objectivity of this vote we have no choice but to re-do the draft order.The unfortunate situation of having to take away a good draft spot from some GMs is the consequence of a few people having done the lottery in a very rushed and unilateral way.

I'm re-quoting myself because you asked a reason and I didn't want to re-type all of it.
Says who though? Who is determining these things "we have no choice on"

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01-13-2013, 02:39 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
No one had time to oppose it. VanI made a unilateral decision to PM him and twenty minutes later the draft order was released. I would have VEHEMENTLY stopped it had I been online. And that's the reason we really can't re-vote on it.
Agreed. Also when the previous lottery took place, we hadn't decided if you could even trade all your picks, so the lottery was putting the cart in front of the horse in a chronological and logical sense. Whereas in this topic's poll people are able to make a more informed choice now that they know they can trade all their picks.

In case I'm not being clear, if the random draft order wins this topic's poll, I think it's only fair to all that we re-do the random draft order.

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Old
01-13-2013, 02:57 PM
  #34
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Says who though? Who is determining these things "we have no choice on"
Logic and integrity of the polls we decided to do.

Suppose we rushed a trade before seeing the results of the trade rules voting and everybody sees and agrees that you completely ripped me off in this particular trade.This situation would ensure that you will vote FOR trades and that I will vote AGAINST trades , and in the case our trade would still be relevant if trading was allowed , it would also mean people would vote AGAINST trades because of a competitive balance problem.This is why in order to save the poll's integrity we would have to throw out the trade we made before the results were out.

This is the same situation (although on a less important scale).


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-13-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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Old
01-13-2013, 04:47 PM
  #35
Dwight
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I have not seen this mythical "draft order" that's already been done. I assume it does not exist.

I still picked Option 1

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Old
01-13-2013, 04:54 PM
  #36
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As someone who benefits from the draft order that was made, even I must admit that it was created at an inappropriate time and should be disregarded. We are try to make the process cleaner and more democratic, so actions taken by over-eager GMs before the rest of the ATD is ready is not a valid action. We are taking our time to try and reduce some if the rot that has infected the ATD and that requires that we apply due process to all preparational actions.

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Old
01-13-2013, 05:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
No one had time to oppose it. VanI made a unilateral decision to PM him and twenty minutes later the draft order was released. I would have VEHEMENTLY stopped it had I been online.
Not true. Go back to the sign-up thread about post 180 and notice exactly what happened at what time in what order:

First, someone posted that we should get a draft order right away and that the voting poll won't interfere. Second, I posted I will contact spitfire11 to do his traditional name drawing from a hat. Third, I posted that I had PM'd him. Fourth, TDMM said the trading decisions should be decided first. Fifth, OVER EIGHT HOURS AND FORTY MINUTES PASSED. Sixth, spitfire11 came online and said he will post the draft order in a few minutes. Seventh, two other posters (not me) cheered him on. Eighth, the draft order was posted by spitfire11.

There was no fast move made. It was all in response to the requests of GMs and in line with past practice. Lots of time passed. If it was so important to TDMM he could have asked spitfire11 to stop or ask me to PM him back to not do it (so many hours passed between the point that TDMM raised a concern and spitsfire came online to post).

Now, if you want TDMM, simply do some new polls. You say you want to start the draft the last week of January. That gives you two weeks to do a couple of new polls (should spits list be used or a new randomized list made). There is no hurry on the time schedule you want. Go for it. Of course, if someone objects, there could be another poll to decide on when to start the draft...

There was a time when it was standard practice to proceed to draft order right after the number of teams to join has been reached. And time clocks started two to three days after that. But, the times they are a changin'. It's not like it used to be around here. Fine. Figure out how you want to do things.


Last edited by VanIslander: 01-13-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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Old
01-14-2013, 03:49 AM
  #38
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think it's obvious from the results that when we didn't go with the no-trade draft, the preferential draft order proposal never had a chance.

Looks like it's going to be continuing to do random draft order for the foreseeable future. If we ever do a no-trade draft, it might be worth bringing the proposal up again.

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Old
01-14-2013, 04:02 AM
  #39
Hawkman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think it's obvious from the results that when we didn't go with the no-trade draft, the preferential draft order proposal never had a chance. Looks like it's going to be continuing to do random draft order for the foreseeable future. If we ever do a no-trade draft, it might be worth bringing the proposal up again.
Agreed. Also, some guys are gonna want the same picks so it's just gonna end up being a different kind of lottery and nothing will really change. It would be interesting though if we all manned up in a hockey history appreciation spirit and played the hand we're dealt someday.

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01-14-2013, 04:22 AM
  #40
BenchBrawl
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the results are clear , the lottery can be re-done now.Let's just make sure everybody knows it's happening.

what's left now? be clear about the trades rules?


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 01-14-2013 at 04:41 AM.
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Old
01-14-2013, 10:43 AM
  #41
seventieslord
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Good decision here. This is the way it had to be.

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Old
01-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #42
TheDevilMadeMe
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You know, before I opened this poll, I PMed seventieslord and said something like "you know, there's nothing that makes one random order better than another random order. Despite the fact that it took just about everyone by surprise, is there any reason not to just use the order spitfire made if we go with a random order?"

But the fact that the guy who would receive the first overall pick if that order stands thinks that it shouldn't stand is pretty compelling...

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Old
01-14-2013, 01:20 PM
  #43
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You know, before I opened this poll, I PMed seventieslord and said something like "you know, there's nothing that makes one random order better than another random order. Despite the fact that it took just about everyone by surprise, is there any reason not to just use the order spitfire made if we go with a random order?"

But the fact that the guy who would receive the first overall pick if that order stands thinks that it shouldn't stand is pretty compelling...
That's what ive been saying for the past 4 days. I still havent been given an explanation on why that was so unfair?

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Old
01-14-2013, 01:28 PM
  #44
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
That's what ive been saying for the past 4 days. I still havent been given an explanation on why that was so unfair?
I think you've been given a few in this thread.

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01-14-2013, 01:47 PM
  #45
markrander87
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think you've been given a few in this thread.
As to why that random draft order should be thrown out so we can create another random draft order? *scratches head*

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01-14-2013, 01:58 PM
  #46
tony d
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My thoughts on the current draft order "controversy":

The way that draft order was done was rushed. We weren't prepared for it. So for us to go with that draft order would be unfair. Let's get everything together first and then run a new lottery sometime early this week once all the other rules have been finalized. It's only fair to do it like that. I'd rather have the #1 pick under those circumstances rather than have it under the ? circumstances that got me the #1 pick in the original draw.

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01-14-2013, 02:03 PM
  #47
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
As to why that random draft order should be thrown out so we can create another random draft order? *scratches head*
Right.

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01-14-2013, 02:30 PM
  #48
markrander87
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Right.
...go ahead

All I heard was "we weren't ready so that random draft order was unfair, it was rushed. I guess if everybody was "ready" it would have been more fair?

It makes zero sense

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01-14-2013, 02:38 PM
  #49
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
...go ahead

All I heard was "we weren't ready so that random draft order was unfair, it was rushed. I guess if everybody was "ready" it would have been more fair?

It makes zero sense
It's not hard to understand that people's opinions on whether to go ahead with the old order, are tainted by where they sat in the order.

Case in point - your reaction.

You may be deliberately ignoring this point but it's obviously happening.

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Old
01-14-2013, 02:54 PM
  #50
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Whatever - so whens the new draw? And when are the rules finalized..

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