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Ryan O'Reilly to the Leafs

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Old
01-13-2013, 02:41 PM
  #26
Avs44
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
holy bejeebus I didn't expect an all out argument that has nothing to do with the proposal. I thought a young stud C for a young stud D was a good starting point in a situation where he needed to be moved.
Except this has already been gone over. O'Reilly for Gardiner? Already been discussed. Same with Duchene for Gardiner. Just use the search function and you will find the threads.

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01-13-2013, 02:41 PM
  #27
The Podium
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holy bejeebus I didn't expect an all out argument that has nothing to do with the proposal. I thought a young stud C for a young stud D was a good starting point in a situation where he needed to be moved.
You obviously have never entered a "one of Colorados to Toronto thread". Nothings good enough, regardless if its justified or not, so there is no reason to even start them.

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01-13-2013, 02:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
You obviously have never entered a "one of Colorados to Toronto thread". Nothings good enough, regardless if its justified or not, so there is no reason to even start them.
Because there is nothing good enough.

Toronto is not in a position to trade for one of our centers without giving up pieces they simply can't give up right now.

We don't need prospects or depth. We need top end young talent in return for our young top end talent.
Toronto just can not offer that.

It is maddening that thread after thread pops up and goes exactly the same way every time.

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01-13-2013, 02:44 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
At this point, then proper place for these threads should be on the Leafs board. It has been going on for a long time now, and there is absolutely nothing from anyone credible to warrant this many threads. At least with Luongo let's say, we know he will be traded at some point.
This is a trade board and this is a trade proposal, so it is in the right place. Just because you guys are tired of these proposals doesnt mean we should keep the proposals in the Leaf board.

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01-13-2013, 02:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
Because there is nothing good enough.

Toronto is not in a position to trade for one of our centers without giving up pieces they simply can't give up right now.

We don't need prospects or depth. We need top end young talent in return for our young top end talent.
Toronto just can not offer that.

It is maddening that thread after thread pops up and goes exactly the same way every time.
Dont worry, i agree. These threads should stop but they never will.

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01-13-2013, 02:45 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
Because there is nothing good enough.

Toronto is not in a position to trade for one of our centers without giving up pieces they simply can't give up right now.

We don't need prospects or depth. We need top end young talent in return for our young top end talent.
Toronto just can not offer that.

It is maddening that thread after thread pops up and goes exactly the same way every time.
What exactly is Gardiner if not top end young talent?

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01-13-2013, 02:46 PM
  #32
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Maybe you guys should avoid these threads instead of complaining about them.
Then why have it on the main boards if you want he other fanbase to just ignore them?

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01-13-2013, 02:48 PM
  #33
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Its been going on for at least two years straight now, if not longer.
Yeah, but now even other team's fans are noticing the trend. We were just ahead of the curve on identifying this problem.

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01-13-2013, 02:49 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
What exactly is Gardiner if not top end young talent?
If Gardiner was on the Red Wings he would have Karlsson-like value.

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01-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #35
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If Gardiner was on the Red Wings he would have Karlsson-like value.
He'd have the value of a near ppg, Norris winning dman?

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01-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
What exactly is Gardiner if not top end young talent?
I forgot proven in my post.
Gardiner is just too much of an unknown right now. Especially with his concussion.
We don't really know yet what he can do outside of Wilsons system, how he develops defensively and what kind of player he will be and how he bounces back from his concussion.

He has great value to the Leafs but every other team would be foolish to accept him as a centerpiece of a deal for their proven young talent.

To me Gardiner is a huge wildcard right now. Could be a top pairing dman but could also be JML. I am not giving up one of our centers for him...

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01-13-2013, 02:54 PM
  #37
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He'd have the value of a near ppg, Norris winning dman?
Yes, absolutely he would. That 30 point season practically makes him equivalent to someone like Karlsson. Only reason he's not is because he is on the Leafs. That 30 point season on a different team would put him among the best defensman in the league. Not like guys like Liles, Mezaros, Ballard, etc, did the same thing...

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01-13-2013, 02:56 PM
  #38
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Like this should be noted for ALL Leafs fans, you're simply overvaluing your players a tonne, and/or undervaluing other teams players.

You're offering Gardiner straight up for Oreilly, and complaining when us Avs fans say its not close, we guess what, ever other fan base agrees with us.

A Florida Panthers fan just made a thread proposing a straight up swap of Oreilly for Kulikov. Kulikov holds a tonne more value then Gardiner, and obviously he and Oreilly in the eyes of a Panthers fan hold similar value.

So no, Gardiner is not even close to the value of Oreilly. Just go look at all the other threads, its been repeated many times.

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01-13-2013, 03:03 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Yes, absolutely he would. That 30 point season practically makes him equivalent to someone like Karlsson. Only reason he's not is because he is on the Leafs. That 30 point season on a different team would put him among the best defensman in the league. Not like guys like Liles, Mezaros, Ballard, etc, did the same thing...
The ironic thing is Karlssons rookie year:


2009-10 Ottawa Senators NHL 60 5 21 26

On pace for 32 over a 75 game season. Of course im not comparing them, and Karlsson was 18, but i find it funny how we can use comparables that falter but choose to ignore the comparables that flourish.

Just for the heck of it,

Weber at 21
2005-06 Nashville Predators NHL 28 2 8 10 On pace for 28 points

Dan Boyle 22
2000-01 Florida Panthers NHL 69 4 18 22

Chara at 23
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 75 10 13 23

Brian Campbell at 23
002-03 Buffalo Sabres NHL 65 2 17 19

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01-13-2013, 03:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Like this should be noted for ALL Leafs fans, you're simply overvaluing your players a tonne, and/or undervaluing other teams players.

You're offering Gardiner straight up for Oreilly, and complaining when us Avs fans say its not close, we guess what, ever other fan base agrees with us.

A Florida Panthers fan just made a thread proposing a straight up swap of Oreilly for Kulikov. Kulikov holds a tonne more value then Gardiner, and obviously he and Oreilly in the eyes of a Panthers fan hold similar value.

So no, Gardiner is not even close to the value of Oreilly. Just go look at all the other threads, its been repeated many times.
Id agree that Kulikov holds more value than Gardiner, but a ton is stretching it by a lot....

Difference is ~6 points when you prorate it

ES TOI is roughly the same, Gardiner has almost a minute more PK TOI while Kulikov has almost a minute more PP TOI

Kulikov had one of the worst +/- on his team (tied for 4th last, -5 on a team that was -24) while Gardiner was 11th (-2 on a team that was -33)

Kulikov had a higher QoC and CorsiRELQoC however, Gardiner had a higher Corsi REL (more shots for than against while he was on the ice)

Kulikov started in the defensive zone most the time, however most of his shifts ended with him in the defensive zone as well while the opposite is true for Gardiner (started mostly in offensive zone, but finished most of the shifts in the defensive zone).

The value is not that off.....


Last edited by The Podium: 01-13-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old
01-13-2013, 03:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Like this should be noted for ALL Leafs fans, you're simply overvaluing your players a tonne, and/or undervaluing other teams players.

You're offering Gardiner straight up for Oreilly, and complaining when us Avs fans say its not close, we guess what, ever other fan base agrees with us.

A Florida Panthers fan just made a thread proposing a straight up swap of Oreilly for Kulikov. Kulikov holds a tonne more value then Gardiner, and obviously he and Oreilly in the eyes of a Panthers fan hold similar value.

So no, Gardiner is not even close to the value of Oreilly. Just go look at all the other threads, its been repeated many times.
Sure Leafs fans overrate their players, which fan base doesn't? As much as Leafs overrated their players, other fans underrate Leafs player for many reasons. I think most do it just to get under our skin to be honest. There's a lot of ignorant and/or obnoxious Leafs fans on these boards and a great way to get back at them is by calling their players "trash" or "garbage".

Obviously I was being sarcastic about the Karlsson-Gardiner comparison, I guess sarcasm isn't easlily picked up by some people. All I meant was if Gardiner was property of a team like Detroit or Pittsburgh, and put up a 30 point season while being named to the All-Rookie Team, other fans would value him much more. That's just the way things work around here. No one can deny the biased opinions, and yes it goes both ways.

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01-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
The ironic thing is Karlssons rookie year:


2009-10 Ottawa Senators NHL 60 5 21 26

On pace for 32 over a 75 game season. Of course im not comparing them, and Karlsson was 18, but i find it funny how we can use comparables that falter but choose to ignore the comparables that flourish.

Just for the heck of it,

Weber at 21
2005-06 Nashville Predators NHL 28 2 8 10 On pace for 28 points

Dan Boyle 22
2000-01 Florida Panthers NHL 69 4 18 22

Chara at 23
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 75 10 13 23

Brian Campbell at 23
002-03 Buffalo Sabres NHL 65 2 17 19
Keith Ballard Phoxnix at 23 NHL 82 8 31 39

Brett Lebda Detroit at 23 NHL 46 3 9 12 On pace for 21

etc etc etc

Your argument is illogical and fallacious. Each person is unique to himself.

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01-13-2013, 03:19 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Id agree that Kulikov holds more value than Gardiner, but a ton is stretching it by a lot....
Kulikov is what Garinder aspires to be right now, and Kulikov isn't done growing. He has the potential to be a permanent Top 15 Dman in the league with a couple Norris like seasons in him.

Gardiner has Top pairing potential and I do think in his prime he'll be a good #2(Think the offensive version of Coburn) but he doesn't have #1 Potential. Oreilly has #1 potential as a C still.

For the record, Im actually(one of the few people) of the belief that Kulikov actually holds more value then Oreilly, but even Panthers fans are offering a 1 for 1 swap so apparently I've even been underrating Oreilly.

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01-13-2013, 03:19 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Keith Ballard Phoxnix at 23 NHL 82 8 31 39

Brett Lebda Detroit at 23 NHL 46 3 9 12 On pace for 21

etc etc etc

Your argument is illogical and fallacious. Each person is unique to himself.
Thats what im arguing..... Avs fans use Ballards, Liles etc. to show a comparable stat line, ive shown the stars with the same as proof that each player is unique, then you respond with what i was arguing against....

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01-13-2013, 03:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Kulikov is what Garinder aspires to be right now, and Kulikov isn't done growing. He has the potential to be a permanent Top 15 Dman in the league with a couple Norris like seasons in him.

Gardiner has Top pairing potential and I do think in his prime he'll be a good #2(Think the offensive version of Coburn) but he doesn't have #1 Potential. Oreilly has #1 potential as a C still.

For the record, Im actually(one of the few people) of the belief that Kulikov actually holds more value then Oreilly, but even Panthers fans are offering a 1 for 1 swap so apparently I've even been underrating Oreilly.
I added to the post, re-read it please.

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01-13-2013, 03:37 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
I added to the post, re-read it please.
It changes nothing. Kulikov is a fair amount better then Gardiner defensively and Kulikov wasn't getting prime opportunities in Florida, he was playing behind Campbell in the offensive role while Garinder was in the top offensive role when he joined the Leafs.

Kulikov's top absolute top end potential is a top 10 Dman in the NHL, while his likely top end is that of a Top 15-20 Dman in the league, capable of putting up 50 points a season. Dan Boyle comes to mind(Only maybe more of a passer then shooter). Gardiners absolute top end potential is a Top 30 Dman in the NHL, but likely will be a Good #2, capable of 35-40 points a season, but also not as good Defensively as Kulikov.

Kuli is the better player, and there not all that close.

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01-13-2013, 03:42 PM
  #47
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It changes nothing. Kulikov is a fair amount better then Gardiner defensively and Kulikov wasn't getting prime opportunities in Florida, he was playing behind Campbell in the offensive role while Garinder was in the top offensive role when he joined the Leafs.

Kulikov's top absolute top end potential is a top 10 Dman in the NHL, while his likely top end is that of a Top 15-20 Dman in the league, capable of putting up 50 points a season. Dan Boyle comes to mind(Only maybe more of a passer then shooter). Gardiners absolute top end potential is a Top 30 Dman in the NHL, but likely will be a Good #2, capable of 35-40 points a season, but also not as good Defensively as Kulikov.

Kuli is the better player, and there not all that close.
The stats are not proving that he was fair amount better, it becomes your personal opinion.... Gardiner was also behind Phaneuf and Liles offensively so he also did not get prime offensive opportunities (verified by the fact that Gardiner had 1 minute less PP time). Their ceiling is not a quantified measurement.... How can you claim one will be something and the other cant? Again this is your perception and has no merit on their value.

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01-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #48
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Thats what im arguing..... Avs fans use Ballards, Liles etc. to show a comparable stat line, ive shown the stars with the same as proof that each player is unique, then you respond with what i was arguing against....
I'm not saying Gardiner will be a Liles...I'm merely saying his 30 point season does not guarantee he will be a star, or top pairing defensman, as many Leafs fans seem to think. It goes both ways.

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01-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #49
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It changes nothing. Kulikov is a fair amount better then Gardiner defensively and Kulikov wasn't getting prime opportunities in Florida, he was playing behind Campbell in the offensive role while Garinder was in the top offensive role when he joined the Leafs.

Kulikov's top absolute top end potential is a top 10 Dman in the NHL, while his likely top end is that of a Top 15-20 Dman in the league, capable of putting up 50 points a season. Dan Boyle comes to mind(Only maybe more of a passer then shooter). Gardiners absolute top end potential is a Top 30 Dman in the NHL, but likely will be a Good #2, capable of 35-40 points a season, but also not as good Defensively as Kulikov.

Kuli is the better player, and there not all that close.
Try again. Gardiner was primarily playing on the second pairing and second power play unit.

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