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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
01-13-2013, 03:03 PM
  #751
Lafleurs Guy
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Should be interesting to see what happens with us this year. I really have no idea how to evaluate our chances. Short season, lots of player change and we're not sure who will be in the lineup yet.

My hope is that we let Galchenyuk have the rest of the year in the minors. He's tearing it up, let him dominate and then look at him next season.

Pacman and Subban are going to have to continue to improve. We'll need big performances out of them if we want to do anything.

Markov? Who the hell knows... Still think we should deal him and Pleks and I really hope we do if we fall out of it. Should've dealt these guys long ago.

Price (as usual) is the key. If he's average as he was last year, it's going to be a tough road. If he plays like he can though, he can get us in by himself. He's a premier goalie and he needs to start consistently playing like one.

Bottom line: I'd have no problem with another high pick next draft. We could surely use it and if you add another strong young player I think we'd be in great shape going forward. Still think we should be rebuilding more aggressively but at least now we have some guys like Galchenyuk to build around.

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01-13-2013, 05:13 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Should be interesting to see what happens with us this year. I really have no idea how to evaluate our chances. Short season, lots of player change and we're not sure who will be in the lineup yet.

My hope is that we let Galchenyuk have the rest of the year in the minors. He's tearing it up, let him dominate and then look at him next season.

Pacman and Subban are going to have to continue to improve. We'll need big performances out of them if we want to do anything.

Markov? Who the hell knows... Still think we should deal him and Pleks and I really hope we do if we fall out of it. Should've dealt these guys long ago.

Price (as usual) is the key. If he's average as he was last year, it's going to be a tough road. If he plays like he can though, he can get us in by himself. He's a premier goalie and he needs to start consistently playing like one.

Bottom line: I'd have no problem with another high pick next draft. We could surely use it and if you add another strong young player I think we'd be in great shape going forward. Still think we should be rebuilding more aggressively but at least now we have some guys like Galchenyuk to build around.
A paradox: it's probably not worth it to trade Markov unless he bounces back with a vengeance.

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01-13-2013, 05:25 PM
  #753
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Trading both Plekanec and Markov right now would not maximize the return. Especially Markov, he needs to prove he is still the same player and that is going to take a very good year.

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01-13-2013, 05:32 PM
  #754
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A paradox: it's probably not worth it to trade Markov unless he bounces back with a vengeance.
It's worth it either way. Back with a vengance is obviously better but we should deal him. And should've done so long ago...

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Trading both Plekanec and Markov right now would not maximize the return. Especially Markov, he needs to prove he is still the same player and that is going to take a very good year.
Who cares if it maximizes their return? Some return is better than none. We need to be looking towards the future not the past. These guys have value and we should deal them. Play the hell out of them, let them rack up points and sell as high as you can. If they play well we can maximize the return. If they don't play well, get what you can...

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01-13-2013, 05:36 PM
  #755
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It's worth it either way. Back with a vengance is obviously better but we should deal him. And should've done so long ago...


Who cares if it maximizes their return? We need to be looking towards the future not the past. These guys have value and we should deal them. Play the hell out of them, let them rack up points and sell as high as you can.
Why stop there then? Why not also deal Gionta and Cole who are closer to the end of their careers than Plekanec? Why not Gorges? If we want to compete with the Islanders we need to swap all our vets for scrap heap vets like they do.

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01-13-2013, 05:40 PM
  #756
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Why stop there then? Why not also deal Gionta and Cole who are closer to the end of their careers than Plekanec? Why not Gorges? If we want to compete with the Islanders we need to swap all our vets for scrap heap vets like they do.
The way I see it, with Pacioretty/Gorges/Price locked up long-term, and Galchenyuk in the system, our stanley cup contention window is 2015-2018 or so.

We should definitely trade some vets, we can't trade all the vets in my opinion as that's hard to pull off, there's only so much demand in the trade market. We also need to go for the playoffs in the 2014-2015 season in order to develop our young players and transition to being a winning team, same as the oilers are doing this year.

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01-13-2013, 05:45 PM
  #757
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[QUOTE=DAChampion;57544951]The way I see it, with Pacioretty/Gorges/Price locked up long-term, and Galchenyuk in the system, our stanley cup contention window is 2015-2018 or so.

We should definitely trade some vets, we can't trade all the vets in my opinion as that's hard to pull off, there's only so much demand in the trade market. We also need to go for the playoffs in the 2014-2015 season in order to develop our young players and transition to being a winning team, same as the oilers are doing this year.[/]

The thing is if you trade Plekanec, you pretty much commit to at least another year of sucking, and both Gionta and Cole have limited shelf lives. Also Plekanec has a NTC so trading him before the deadline guarantees a team can rip us off since we can't just blindside Plek Jeff Carter style

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01-13-2013, 05:49 PM
  #758
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Why stop there then? Why not also deal Gionta and Cole who are closer to the end of their careers than Plekanec? Why not Gorges? If we want to compete with the Islanders we need to swap all our vets for scrap heap vets like they do.
Sounds good to me. Go out and trade whatever vets bring the best return. Rebuild properly for once. We're not going anywhere this year or next anyway so why not? If we'd done this years ago we'd be in great shape.

Instead every year we make up excuses as to why we can't do this and then we fight for 8th place. They don't all have to be traded at once but YES we should be dealing these guys away. Not Gorges though.

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01-13-2013, 05:52 PM
  #759
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Just reading the title of the thread before a single game has been played annoys the hell out of me.

What "fan" hopes their team loses? Root for the Leafs, you'll be happier.

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01-13-2013, 05:52 PM
  #760
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The thing is if you trade Plekanec, you pretty much commit to at least another year of sucking, and both Gionta and Cole have limited shelf lives. Also Plekanec has a NTC so trading him before the deadline guarantees a team can rip us off since we can't just blindside Plek Jeff Carter style
We sucked with him anyway so I don't see the big deal. So what if we suck for another year? I'd rather that then finish 8th and get kicked out in the first round.

I want a CUP. I don't think we have the pieces for it this year and probably not next year. So why not start building for the future now? I'm sick of us half rebuilding half going for 8th. We just landed Galchenyuk and everyone's thrilled. Well, what if we got another prospect like this? Don't you think our chances for actually winning a cup would go up in the future?

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01-13-2013, 05:54 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The thing is if you trade Plekanec, you pretty much commit to at least another year of sucking, and both Gionta and Cole have limited shelf lives. Also Plekanec has a NTC so trading him before the deadline guarantees a team can rip us off since we can't just blindside Plek Jeff Carter style
I am one of the people on this board who is bullish on Lars Eller, so I don't think losing Plekanec will take years to recover.

I think that with Galchenyuk-Eller as our top-2 centers we can compete for 8th place in 2013-2014 and be a dark horse stanley cup candidate as soon as 2014-2015.

As such, if we can get good value for Plekanec, and he should in principle have very high-value, I'm all for it.

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01-13-2013, 05:56 PM
  #762
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Just reading the title of the thread before a single game has been played annoys the hell out of me.

What "fan" hopes their team loses? Root for the Leafs, you'll be happier.
Some of us want to see the Habs win a stanley cup in our lifetimes.

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01-13-2013, 05:59 PM
  #763
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Shortened season, anybody can catch lightening in a bottle
What I hope MB does is give it 10-12 games, see how we come out of the gate and then decide.
Calling for a tank before the puck drops to start the season is foolhardy.
As far as dealing vets, you have to keep some, someone has to show the young guys the way.
If I were dealing, Gionta, Bourque and Cole at the top of the list, then Plekanec only if we decide that Desharnais is part of the solution(I'm not convinced). Personally, i'd let Markov retire a Hab if he so desired.

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01-13-2013, 06:00 PM
  #764
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I am one of the people on this board who is bullish on Lars Eller, so I don't think losing Plekanec will take years to recover.
If it takes years to recover from a loss of a player of Plekanec's stature then this fanchise is in far worse shape that I thought it was.

The moon doesn't rise and fall with this guy any more than it did with Koivu (another guy we should've dealt away) and dealing him will HELP us not hurt us win a cup. TP can help some other team that's actually a contender now to win a cup. He won't win one with us so we might as well trade him while he has some decent value and build from there.

Our other GMs never learned this lesson. Hopefully Bergevin has more insight.
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Shortened season, anybody can catch lightening in a bottle
What I hope MB does is give it 10-12 games, see how we come out of the gate and then decide.
Calling for a tank before the puck drops to start the season is foolhardy.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. If he were going to seriously rebuild we'd have see signs of it already. You'll get your 10-12 games for sure.
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As far as dealing vets, you have to keep some, someone has to show the young guys the way.
If I were dealing, Gionta, Bourque and Cole at the top of the list, then Plekanec only if we decide that Desharnais is part of the solution(I'm not convinced). Personally, i'd let Markov retire a Hab if he so desired.
Why let Markov retire instead of trading him? Do him a favour and give him a chance to win a cup somewhere. He's not Larry Robinson (another guy we let walk for nothing) and I don't see any reason to squander him as an asset. That kind of thinking has really hurt this franchise over the years.

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01-13-2013, 06:05 PM
  #765
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If it takes years to recover from a loss of a player of Plekanec's stature then this fanchise is in far worse shape that I thought it was.
You bring up a very good point.

Many of the same posters who want us to compete believe that we really need Tomas Plekanec, a player who is perhaps the 20th best center in the NHL, but more likely around 25th. Not just Et Le But, I've seen other posters claim that losing Plekanec would mean a long-term rebuild.

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01-13-2013, 06:08 PM
  #766
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If it takes years to recover from a loss of a player of Plekanec's stature then this fanchise is in far worse shape that I thought it was.
It's more that our forward corps is below average and unless Galchenyuk is the second coming, without Plekanec's defensive load the first line is going to be much less effective making our offense from below average to terrible. And it will probably hurt our PK too which is one of the few things we were good at last year.

Not that this is a bad thing if the plan is to get Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin/Lindholm and possibly be in the running for McDavid next year, but if we are going to do that we might as well go all out and ship Cole.

Of course those of you who think Galchenyuk is so good that he's going to come into a league as an above average NHLer, then yeah, losing Plekanec will not be a big deal, but this is a major assumption and the WJC didn't give me any reason to believe that. Galchenyuk isn't Crosby.

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01-13-2013, 06:09 PM
  #767
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Galchenyuk isn't Crosby.
And even if here were Crosby, he would need Malkin and Staal to win the cup.

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01-13-2013, 06:14 PM
  #768
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It's more that our forward corps is below average and unless Galchenyuk is the second coming, without Plekanec's defensive load the first line is going to be much less effective making our offense from below average to terrible. And it will probably hurt our PK too which is one of the few things we were good at last year.
Honestly though... who cares? Like I said, if this guy is THE guy for us then we're in no position to win anything. He's now 30 years old and he's not going to win a cup with us. Other teams know that he can fill as 2nd line role very well so deal him while he has value.

Even with him we're not going to win so trade him.
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Not that this is a bad thing if the plan is to get Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin/Lindholm and possibly be in the running for McDavid next year, but if we are going to do that we might as well go all out and ship Cole.
Sure, why not? I'd prefer to deal Gionta but if Cole lands a better return then trade him. He's coming off a great year and is 34 years old. Sell high.
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Of course those of you who think Galchenyuk is so good that he's going to come into a league as an above average NHLer, then yeah, losing Plekanec will not be a big deal, but this is a major assumption and the WJC didn't give me any reason to believe that. Galchenyuk isn't Crosby.
Nobody said he was. But he's a great prospect and we should be trying to get MORE of this kind of player. Hanging onto Cole or Pleks or Markov won't really do anything for us anyway. Hang onto a couple of vets, trade the rest, draft high again and collect some younger prospects.

Then we have Max, PK, Galchenyuk, Tinordi, Price + whatever else we get to build with. Hanging onto those vets isn't doing us any real good unless we're shooting for 8th.

I know its a 48 game season and I know that you need to buy a lottery ticket to win but in the long run we're better off being proactive and building towards something instead of trying to sneak our way into the postseason and trying to get lucky.

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01-13-2013, 06:15 PM
  #769
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Plekanec is still not old enough where you can't envision him being on the next good Habs team. I would keep him.

Gionta, Cole, Kaberle, Bourque can all go somewhere else.

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01-13-2013, 06:15 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You bring up a very good point.

Many of the same posters who want us to compete believe that we really need Tomas Plekanec, a player who is perhaps the 20th best center in the NHL, but more likely around 25th. Not just Et Le But, I've seen other posters claim that losing Plekanec would mean a long-term rebuild.
No, it has nothing to do with Plekanec being great, it's that he's the only forward on this team with a track record of being good to very good in all situations. If Plekanec was elite, then trading him would be an even easier decision because we could get a lot back from him, the problem is he's a jack of all trades and guys like that are underrated on the trade market.

And I think you are underestimating how important he is for eating difficult minutes. Do you really think the DD line could replicate what it did last year without Plekanec eating up matchups? Maybe Eller can do it, but he's a step down right now, and a Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk C tandem is incredibly soft defensively, and I disagree with throwing Gally to the wolves like that.

It's not long term either, but I think it writes off along with this season probably next, and by that point Gionta and Cole will have little value on the ice or on the block. The problem is this team is hardly budding with young talent ready to explode, besides Pacioretty our wings are very old, and so if the idea is to "plan for the future" we might as well really suck. Getting a 2nd round draft pick from Plekanec is going to take time to have any value.

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Honestly though... who cares? Like I said, if this guy is THE guy for us then we're in no position to win anything. He's now 30 years old and he's not going to win a cup with us. Other teams know that he can fill as 2nd line role very well so deal him while he has value.

Even with him we're not going to win so trade him.
The thing is, Plekanec has a NTC and any team he will go to is going to give us a late 1st at best for him, and I'm not sure many teams would even do that, so if you trade him right now, you aren't doing it for the return, you are doing it to tank, and 1 year isn't enough This might be the best aim long term, I don't agree because I watch hockey to be entertained, and I'd rather be able to watch the Habs for the next 2 years without having to drink myself to death but so be it, if we are going to do it then there is no reason to keep Cole and Gionta.


Last edited by Et le But: 01-13-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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01-13-2013, 06:15 PM
  #771
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Some of us want to see the Habs win a stanley cup in our lifetimes.
Last I checked, you need to WIN a cup. Not finish last the most consecutive times.

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01-13-2013, 06:23 PM
  #772
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Last I checked, you need to WIN a cup. Not finish last the most consecutive times.
You need great players to win cups. They're usually at the top of the draft.

We've got a lot of good but not great players who will never win a cup with us. We should be single minded in our pursuit of a championship and realize that trading these guys will bring in assets that we can build with. Yeah, we'll probably sink in the standings but so what?

The whole 'tanking' philosophy is a misnomer. But rebuilding makes a hell of a lot of sense for us right now. Hell, we might wind up out of the playoffs anyway. Might as well get something out of it and deal vets for prospects/picks.

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01-13-2013, 06:29 PM
  #773
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No, it has nothing to do with Plekanec being great, it's that he's the only forward on this team with a track record of being good to very good in all situations. If Plekanec was elite, then trading him would be an even easier decision because we could get a lot back from him, the problem is he's a jack of all trades and guys like that are underrated on the trade market.
The crux of your argument though seems to be that without him we'd tank. And I say that if our fortunes rise and fall with Thoms Plekanec then why even debate against a rebuild?
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And I think you are underestimating how important he is for eating difficult minutes. Do you really think the DD line could replicate what it did last year without Plekanec eating up matchups? Maybe Eller can do it, but he's a step down right now, and a Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk C tandem is incredibly soft defensively, and I disagree with throwing Gally to the wolves like that.
I'm not underestimating anything. I know he plays hard minutes. I just don't care.

So if we trade him then we'll lose some games? So what? Lose some games then. Get the return and then draft high. I don't care if we lose this year if it means we're getting a better chance to win in the future. It's short term pain for long term pain.
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It's not long term either, but I think it writes off along with this season probably next, and by that point Gionta and Cole will have little value on the ice or on the block. The problem is this team is hardly budding with young talent ready to explode, besides Pacioretty our wings are very old, and so if the idea is to "plan for the future" we might as well really suck. Getting a 2nd round draft pick from Plekanec is going to take time to have any value.
I've already written off this season and next. We're not winning anything man. Accept it. Even with Pleks we're going nowhere. So why not profit from trading him?

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The thing is, Plekanec has a NTC and any team he will go to is going to give us a late 1st at best for him, and I'm not sure many teams would even do that, so if you trade him right now, you aren't doing it for the return, you are doing it to tank, and 1 year isn't enough This might be the best aim long term, I don't agree because I watch hockey to be entertained, and I'd rather be able to watch the Habs for the next 2 years without having to drink myself to death but so be it, if we are going to do it then there is no reason to keep Cole and Gionta.
You just talked about how great he is and how we can't survive without him. Then you say all we'll get is a late first.... which is it?

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01-13-2013, 06:45 PM
  #774
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I don't think anybody is proposing trading Plekanec for a 2nd round draft pick.

Plekanec is a 2-way center who is maybe 25th in the league for centers, and thus a 2nd line center on a contender.

Let's look at historical examples.

- Mike Fischer was traded from Ottawa to Nashville in 2011 for a 1st rounder and a conditional pick that turned into a 3rd rounder.
- Mike Richards was traded from Philadelphia to Los Angeles in 2012 for prize prospect and former 5th overall Brayden Schenn and great 2nd line winger Wayne Simon's.
- Jeff Carter was traded from Philadelphia to Columbus for an 8th overall pick (Sean Couturier) and Jacub Voracek.
- Jeff Carter was traded from Columbus to Los Angeles in 2012 for former 4th overall Jack Johnson and a 2013 1st rounder.
- Jordan Staal was traded in 2012 from Pittsburgh to Carolina for a 1st rounder (8th overall) and Brandon Sutter.

There appears to be a lot of value for players of that caliber, e.g. 25th best center in the league.

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01-13-2013, 06:49 PM
  #775
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I hope they make the playoffs actually. With Gomez gone to be replaced by somebody who'll produce more than him, if Subban starts the year on time, if Markov is healthy and back to anything close his previous form, if Galchenyuk catches on and does good, if Kaberle's weight loss leads to a resurgence, if Bourque bounces back etc...

Lots of ifs, but if it all goes our way we'll be just fine. Hell, if Rask would pop his kneecap or something we could waltz in and take the division!

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