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The Hockey News Top 100 Players

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Old
03-14-2006, 09:59 PM
  #451
BM67
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Some average NHL player sizes I put together a while ago:
1917-18 - 5'9.3" - 172.6
1926-27 - 5'9.4" - 171.8
1942-43 - 5'10.2" - 175.2
1966-67 - 5'11.2" - 185.8
1976-77 - 5'11.75" - 187.3

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Old
03-14-2006, 10:44 PM
  #452
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To say hockey players train more and take the sport more seriously than just a hobby on top of working a regular job is one thing, but to say athletes were smaller and scrawnier back in the day is.... ridiculous.


Just one example:

Eduard Hermann, Russian wrestler, 6th at the World Championships of 1911 (GrecoRoman):


Wlodzimierz Zawadzki, Polish wrestler, 6th at the World Championships of 2003 (GrecoRoman):





Well they won they achieved the exact same thing 92 years apart, is there all the much difference in the conditioning and physique of the two athletes in question? Mr. Hermann looks more impressive to me to be honest. Someone can do pretty much any other sport that illustrates the "buffness" of athletes such as swimming and see the exact same result. A random hockey player from 1911 is just as likely to be more physically built/bigger than one from 2003. Athletes may be better now, but they arent any bigger or more developped!

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Old
03-15-2006, 10:18 AM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
It bears mentioning that he was buried behind two pretty darned good centres throughout his best years though.... Given that the two ahead of him can both be used in arguments as the best ever, it makes it easy to overlook how great Francis was. MacInnis and Leetch wouldn't ever have won a Norris had Bobby Orr and Doug Harvey's careers spanned theirs.
Agreed. If Francis had begun his career 10 years earlier, he would have had a few 1st and 2nd team all-star noms. Same with Yzerman and Hawerchuk. They just got stuck in an era that had quite possibly the two best centers of all time. Francis, Yzerman and Hawerchuk compare favourably with the best centers of the 70's like Dionne, Trots, Clarke and Perreault.

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Old
03-15-2006, 10:25 AM
  #454
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whats with this list! some big time ommissions:

Aki Berg?
Pierre Dagenais?

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Old
03-15-2006, 10:53 AM
  #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelco
whats with this list! some big time ommissions:

Aki Berg?
Pierre Dagenais?
They obviously are at 101 and 102 and rising fast.

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Old
03-15-2006, 11:00 AM
  #456
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THN list is sooo much better than the other.

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Old
03-15-2006, 11:00 AM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
Agreed. If Francis had begun his career 10 years earlier, he would have had a few 1st and 2nd team all-star noms. Same with Yzerman and Hawerchuk. They just got stuck in an era that had quite possibly the two best centers of all time. Francis, Yzerman and Hawerchuk compare favourably with the best centers of the 70's like Dionne, Trots, Clarke and Perreault.
I think they compare with the 1970's centres but certainly not favorably except for Yzerman. Those 4 1970's centres were clearly better than Francis and Hawerchuk. Trottier and Clarke were just far, far better 2 way players and led teams to huge winning records and cups. Dionne and Perreault were not on great teams but were better players than Hawerchuk and Francis. I agree that Hawerchuk and Francis were overshadowed by Gretzky and Mario but Hawerchuk is not in the class of the others and Francis is in their class but at the bottom of the players mentioned. Yzerman is in the same class as Trottier and Clarke and was genuinely overshadowed by Mario and Gretz in his prime.

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Old
03-15-2006, 11:42 AM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattihp
THN list is sooo much better than the other.
Which one are you talking about? Ogopogo? pnep? (I think Hockey Outsider has a list, too). While I may not agree with how Ogopogo and pnep compile their list or their standards, these are two individuals who likely have jobs, maybe have families, and spend many, many hours (more than I'd like to know or duplicate) compiling these lists and posting it on a site where they aren't going to get any recognition/kudos beyond this site. I've long respected their work ethic.

The THN list was compiled by some of hockey's foremost experts, some of whom have been watching the game for 50-60 years (Dick Irvin, for example) who make their living at the game, and I'm sure that if you looked at each individual submission, you'd find some head-scratchers, too.

Now if you're talking about the ESPN Tonight experts list, then I agree. The THN list is much better. Bryan Trottier didn't make the ESPN list. That killed their credibility right there.

As for the Francis/Yzerman/Hawerchuk debate. Yzerman's one of the top 50 players of all-time. Had the THN voting taken place two years later (it was conducted after the 1995-96 season), Yzerman would have cracked the top 50. That's what two Cups and a Conn Smythe will do for you. Francis should be in the top 100. He had a couple of brilliant seasons in Pittsburgh after the voting took place, and nobody can forget his play for Carolina in the 2002 playoffs. He was also brilliant defensively and a force in the face-off circle. Hawerchuk, IMO, deserves a similar place with Denis Savard: one of the top 50 offensive players of all-time (both were brilliant offensive players who could kill a team several different ways) but out of the top 100 overall players. Thing about Hawerchuk is that much like Yzerman early in Yzerman's career, Hawerchuk never had a player near his calibre. He was often the only threat in Winnipeg. Anyone who can make Paul MacLean a 100-point player is truly a special talent.

The one who really got the shaft in terms of all-star selections: Peter Statsny. A magnificent playmaking talent. The first European-born, European-trained player to hit 1,000 points. Imagine the numbers he would have achieved had he arrived in the NHL before his 25th birthday. (He didn't even play 1,000 regular season games).

There are a lot of reasons why goal scoring reached its zenith in the 1980s, but one of the reasons nobody mentions is that the talent pool has never been deeper in terms of offensive centres (more specifically playmaking centres) and offensive defencemen.

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Old
03-15-2006, 07:01 PM
  #459
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Did someone really say that Kilger would dominate in the Original 6? That's absurd and it could only have been said by someone who doesn't know the game pre-1967.

First of all, hockey was a much more violent game in original 6 days - the teams played each other so many times that there were some real feuds and rivalries. There were players who had size that were knocked out of the league because of the intimidation factor. I see nothing in Kilger's play that suggest that he could have handled that. You really needed the mental edge to survive in those days. Even training camps were fierce. Howe & Lindsay caused a few players to be sent to the minors if they didn't like them. They could be brutal in training camps to their own players - Guy Fielder for one.

Give Kilger some old Tack skates and don't let him train all summer and you will see that Kilger's skating ability would be diminished.

Don't forget to mention that Kilger has to be able to player 2 minute shifts instead of the 20 seconds or so he's used to now.

And there are skills that the older players had that aren't present in the modern player.

Stickhandling is one skill that you don't see as much compared to the past. Players like Max Bentley were expert stickhandlers. A lot of the players from the past learned their skills on frozen lakes where there were as many as 20 kids trying to get the puck. Bobby Orr learned his game on the frozen lakes and I'm sure that experience helped his instinct for the game. He turned out to be a pretty good player.

For those older fans of the game, they know that Dave Keon had one of the best backhand shots in the game. Goalies have said that defending against backhand shots were more difficult to handle. That's another skill that you don't see as much anymore.

Chad Kilger might be a decent AHL player in the days of the old NHL 6 team league.


Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
It was said in a previous thread that Chad Kilger would dominate in the Original Six. No bloody way. Why? He doesn't have the mental edge to dominate. He doesn't have those instincts. Great size, good mobility for a big man and an impressive skill set, to be sure, but he is lacking in the mental aspect of the game. He wouldn't have survived against Original Six competition, when virtually every player had that mental edge, and even the top stars were capable of playing a rugged game.

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Old
03-15-2006, 07:15 PM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey
Did someone really say that Kilger would dominate in the Original 6? That's absurd and it could only have been said by someone who doesn't know the game pre-1967.

First of all, hockey was a much more violent game in original 6 days - the teams played each other so many times that there were some real feuds and rivalries. There were players who had size that were knocked out of the league because of the intimidation factor. I see nothing in Kilger's play that suggest that he could have handled that. You really needed the mental edge to survive in those days. Even training camps were fierce. Howe & Lindsay caused a few players to be sent to the minors if they didn't like them. They could be brutal in training camps to their own players - Guy Fielder for one.

Give Kilger some old Tack skates and don't let him train all summer and you will see that Kilger's skating ability would be diminished.

Don't forget to mention that Kilger has to be able to player 2 minute shifts instead of the 20 seconds or so he's used to now.

And there are skills that the older players had that aren't present in the modern player.

Stickhandling is one skill that you don't see as much compared to the past. Players like Max Bentley were expert stickhandlers. A lot of the players from the past learned their skills on frozen lakes where there were as many as 20 kids trying to get the puck. Bobby Orr learned his game on the frozen lakes and I'm sure that experience helped his instinct for the game. He turned out to be a pretty good player.

For those older fans of the game, they know that Dave Keon had one of the best backhand shots in the game. Goalies have said that defending against backhand shots were more difficult to handle. That's another skill that you don't see as much anymore.

Chad Kilger might be a decent AHL player in the days of the old NHL 6 team league.
Bingo. Nice work, ClassicHockey. capn89 stated a few posts ago that the worst player in today's NHL would dominate the Original 6. Another person who doesn't understand what it takes to succeed in the game. Starshollow said about a month ago that Chad Kilger would dominate in the Original 6. Several posters really took him to task for it. (Ogopogo and murray come to mind). Not coincidentally, starshollow hasn't spewed his ignorance in this part of HF Boards for a while now.

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Old
03-15-2006, 07:58 PM
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER
Who thinks Patrick Roy drops quite a few spots? His reputation seems to have taken quite a beating since 2002 when he sat out the Olympics.

if anything he has moved up imo

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Old
03-15-2006, 08:38 PM
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Bingo. Nice work, ClassicHockey. capn89 stated a few posts ago that the worst player in today's NHL would dominate the Original 6. Another person who doesn't understand what it takes to succeed in the game. Starshollow said about a month ago that Chad Kilger would dominate in the Original 6. Several posters really took him to task for it. (Ogopogo and murray come to mind). Not coincidentally, starshollow hasn't spewed his ignorance in this part of HF Boards for a while now.
The dumbest thing I heard on this was in a Lidstrom thread where someone said that Bobby Orr could even make the NHL today and that something along the lines of Orr not being able to carry Lidstroms jock strap.

It's funny when I was a kid in the mid 80's I seem to remember many people saying negative stuff about Gretzky not being tough enough to play in the Original Six and how he wouldn't have been the best player back then. Now we come full circle and the 4th liners of today are better than top 10 All-time NHLers and Orr couldn't even play in the NHL.

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Old
03-26-2006, 08:37 PM
  #463
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Quote:
The Hockey News Top 50 list

1. Wayne Gretzky, C
2. Bobby Orr, D
3. Gordie Howe, RW
4. Mario Lemieux, C
5. Maurice Richard, RW
6. Doug Harvey, D
7. Jean Beliveau, C
8. Bobby Hull, LW
9. Terry Sawchuk, G
10. Eddie Shore, D
11. Guy Lafleur, RW
12. Mark Messier, C
13. Jacques Plante, G
14. Ray Bourque, D
15. Howie Morenz, C
16. Glenn Hall, G
17. Stan Mikita, C
18. Phil Esposito, C
19. Denis Potvin, D
20. Mike Bossy, RW
21. Ted Lindsay, LW
22. Red Kelly, C/D
23. Bobby Clarke, C
24. Larry Robinson, D
25. Ken Dryden, G
26. Frank Mahovlich, LW
27. Milt Schmidt, C
28. Paul Coffey, D
29. Henri Richard, C
30. Bryan Trottier, C
31. Dickie Moore, LW
32. Newsy Lalonde, C
33. Syl Apps, C
34. Bill Durnan, G
35. Patrick Roy, G
36. Charlie Conacher, RW
37. Jaromir Jagr, RW
38. Marcel Dionne, C
39. Joe Malone, C
40. Chris Chelios, D
41. Dit Clapper, D
42. Bernie Geoffrion, RW
43. Tim Horton, D
44. Bill Cook, RW
45. Johnny Bucyk, LW
46. George Hainsworth, G
47. Gilbert Perreault, C
48. Max Bentley, C
49. Brad Park, D
50. Jari Kurri, RW
http://slam.canoe.ca/Gretzky/gretzky_top50.html

Quote:
50 Jari Kurri
51 Nels Stewart
52 King Clancy
53 Bill Cowley
54 Eric Lindros
55 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
56 Peter Stastny
57 Ted Kennedy
58 Andy Bathgate
59 Pierre Pilote
60 Turk Broda
61 Frank Boucher
62 Cy Denneny
63 Bernie Parent
64 Brett Hull
65 Aurel Joliat
66 Toe Blake
67 Frank Brimsek
68 Elmer Lach
69 Dave Keon
70 Grant Fuhr
71 Brian Leetch
72 Earl Seibert
73 Doug Bentley
74 Borje Salming
75 Georges Vezina
76 Chuck Gardiner
77 Clint Benedict
78 Steve Yzerman
79 Tony Esposito
80 Billy Smith
81 Serge Savard
82 Alex Delvecchio
83 Cecil "Babe" Dye
84 Lorne Chabot
85 Sid Abel
86 Bob Gainey
87 Johnny Bower
88 Sprague Cleghorn
89 Mike Gartner
90 Norm Ullman
91 Sweeney Schriner
92 Joe Primeau
93 Darryl Sittler
94 Joe Sakic
95 Dominik Hasek
96 Babe Pratt
97 Jack Stewart
98 Yvan Cournoyer
99 Bill Gadsby
100 Frank Nighbor
I wonder how many players outside the top 5 are interchangeable.

Dave keon issaid to be the best leaf ever broda won 5 cups kennedy is said to been the most fiercest competitor during his era yet they are ranked very low compared to there montreal contemparies


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 04-04-2006 at 03:11 PM.
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Old
03-26-2006, 09:33 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
http://slam.canoe.ca/Gretzky/gretzky_top50.html



I wonder how many players outside the top 5 are interchangeable.

Dave keon issaid to be the best leaf ever broda won 4 cups kennedy is said to been the most fiercest competitor during his era yet they are ranked very low compared to there montreal contemparies
Broda won 5 Cups.

Kennedy is at 57 and Lach is at 68.

TK 696 231 329 560 432 78 29 31 60 32
EL 664 215 408 623 478 76 19 45 64 36

Teeder has 3 2nd team all-star spots, a Hart, 4 Cups and an assist title. He led the playoffs in goals twice, assists once, and points once.

Elmer has 3 1st and 2 2nd all-star spots, a Hart, 3 Cups, 2 scoring titles, 3 assist titles, and was at one time the NHL's all-time leading scorer. He led the playoffs in assists twice and points once.

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Old
04-12-2006, 03:13 AM
  #465
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Anaheim's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Guy Hebert 1993-2001
Defenseman Bobby Dollas 1993-98
Defenseman Oleg Tverdovsky 1995-96, '99-2002
Center Steve Rucchin 1995-2003
Left wing Paul Kariya 1994-2003
Right wing Teemu Selanne 1996-2001

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie J.S. Giguere 1998-2003
Defenseman Dmitri Mironov 1996-98
Defenseman Fredrik Olausson 1995-96, '98-'00, '02-03
Center Matt Cullen 1997-2003
Left wing Mike LeClerc 1997-2003
Right wing Marry McInnis 1998-2002

BEST PLAYER: Paul Kariya
BEST COACH: Ron Wilson
BEST TEAM: 1996-97 (Western Conf. semifinalists)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

----------------------------------------------------
Atlanta's All-Time Team

Positon Player Years

Goalie Milan Hnilicka 2000-2003
Defenseman Frantisek Kaberle 2000-2003
Defenseman Jiri Slegr 2001-02
Center Ray Ferraro 1999-2002
Left Wing Ilya Kovalchuk 2001-2003
Right Wing Dany Heatley 2001-2003

BEST PLAYER: Danny Heatley
BEST COACH: Curt Fraser
BEST TEAM: 2001-02 (Heatley wins the Calder)
STANLEY CUPS: 0


-----------------------------------------------------
Boston's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Tiny Thompson 1928-39
Defenseman Bobby Orr 1966-76
Defenseman Eddie Shore 1926-40
Center Phil Esposito 1967-76
Left wing John Bucyk 1957-78
Right wing Term O'Reilly 1971-85

SECOND TEAM

Goalie Frankie Brimsek 1938-49
Defenseman Raymond Bourque 1979-2000
Defenseman Dit Clapper 1927-47
Center Milt Schmidt 1936-42, '46-55
Left wing Woody Dumart 1935-42, '45-54
Right wing Cam Neely 1986-96

BEST PLAYER: Bobby Orr
BEST COACH: Harry Sinden
BEST TEAM: 1969-70 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 5
---------------------------------------
Buffalo's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Dominik Hasek 1992-2001
Defenseman Phil Housley 1982-90
Defenseman Mike Ramsey 1980-93
Center Gil Perreault 1970-87
Left wing Rick Martin 1971-81
Right wing Dave Andreychuk 1982-93, 2000-01

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Don Edwards 1976-82
Defenseman Bill Hajt 1973-87
Defenseman Jim Schoenfeld 1972-82, '84-85
Center Pat LaFontaine 1991-97
Left wing Craig Ramsay 1971-85
Right wing Mike Foligno 1981-91

BEST PLAYER: Dominik Hasek
BEST COACH: Scotty Bowman
BEST TEAM: 1974-75 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS:0
----------------------------------------------

Calgary's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Mike Vernon 1982-84, '85-94, 2000-02
Defenseman Al MacInnis 1981-94
Defenseman Gary Suter 1985-94
Center Kent Nilsson 1979-85
Left wing Gary Roberts 1986-96
Right wing Theo Fleury 1988-99

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Daniel Bouchard 1972-81
Defenseman Paul Reinhart 1979-88
Defenseman Jamie Macoun 1982-92
Center Joe Nieuwendyk 1986-95
Left wing Eric Vail 1973-82
Right wing Lanny McDonald 1981-89

BEST PLAYER: Theo Fleury
BEST COACH: Bob Johnson
BEST TEAM: 1988-89 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 1
----------------------------------------------

Carolina's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Arturs Irbe 1998-2003
Defenseman Dave Babych 1985-91
Defenseman Ulf Samuelsson 1984-91
Center Ron Francis 1981-91, '98-2003
Left wing Geoff Sanderson 1990-98
Right wing Blaine Stoughton 1978-84

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Al Smith 1972-75, '77-80
Defenseman Glen Wesley 1994-2003
Defenseman Joel Quenneville 1983-90
Center Mike Rogers 1975-81
Left wing Sylvain Turgeon 1983-89
Right wing Kevin Dineen 1984-91, '95-99

BEST PLAYER: Ron Francis
BEST COACH: Paul Maurice
BEST TEAM: 2001-02 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS: 0 -1 appearence
------------------------------------------------

Chicago's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Glenn Hall 1957-67
Defenseman Earl Seibert 1936-44
Defenseman Pierre Pilote 1955-68
Center Stan Mikita 1958-80
Left wing Bobby Hull 1957-72
Right wing Bill Mosienko 1941-55

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Tony Esposito 1969-84
Defenseman Doug Wilson 1977-91
Defenseman Chris Chelios 1990-99
Center Denis Savard 1980-90, '95-97
Left wing Doug Bentley 1939-52
Right wing Harold March 1928-45

BEST PLAYER: Bobby Hull
BEST COACH: Billy Reay
BEST TEAM: 1960-61 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 3

-----------------------------------------

Colorado's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Patrick Roy 1995-2003
Defenseman Adam Foote 1991-2003
Defenseman Rob Blake 2001-2003
Center Joe Sakic 1988-2003
Left Wing Michel Goulet 1979-90
Right Wing Real Cloutier 1979-83

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Daniel Bouchard 1981-85
Defenseman Raymond Bourque 2000-01
Defenseman Sandis Ozolinsh 1995-00
Center Peter Stastny 1980-90
Left Wing Peter Forsberg 1994-2003
Right Wing Anton Stastny 1980-89

BEST PLAYER: Joe Sakic
BEST COACH: Michel Bergeron
BEST TEAM: 2000-01 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 2
--------------------------------------
Columbus' All-Time Team

Positon Player Years

Goalie Ron Tugnutt 2000-02
Defenseman Rostislav Klesla 2001-03
Defenseman Mattias Timander 2000-02
Center Espen Knutsen 2000-03
Left Wing Ray Whitney 2001-03
Right Wing David Vyborny 2000-03

BEST PLAYER: Ron Tugnutt
BEST COACH: Dave King
BEST TEAM: 2000-01 (71-point inaugural year)
STANLEY CUPS: 0


----------------------------------------

Dallas' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Ed Belfour 1997-2002
Defenseman Craig Hartsburg 1979-89
Defenseman Fred Barrett 1970-83
Center Neal Broten 1980-95 '96-97 Bobby Smith?
Left wing J.P. Parise 1967-75 '78-79
Right wing Dino Ciccarelli 1980-89

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Cesare Maniago 1967-76 Moog ?/Meloche?
Defenseman Curt Giles 1979-91 Zubov?
Defenseman Derian Hatcher 1991-2003
Center Mike Modano 1988-2003
Left wing Brian Bellows 1982-92
Right wing Bill Goldsworthy 1967-77

BEST PLAYER: Neal Broten
BEST COACH: Ken Hitchcock
BEST TEAM: 1998-99 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 1


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 04-12-2006 at 04:39 AM.
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Old
04-12-2006, 03:28 AM
  #466
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Detroits' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Terry Sawchuk 1949-55, '57-64, '68-69
Defenseman Jack Stewart 1938-43, '45-50
Defenseman Red Kelly 1947-60
Center Steve Yzerman 1983-2003
Left wing Ted Lindsay 1944-57, '64-65
Right wing Gordie Howe 1946-71

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Harry Lumley 1943-50
Defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom 1991-2003
Defenseman Bill Quackenbush 1942-49
Center Alex Delvecchio 1950-74
Left wing Syd Howe 1934-46
Right wing Mickey Redmond 1970-76

BEST PLAYER: Gordie Howe
BEST COACH: Scotty Bowman
BEST TEAM: 1951-52 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 10


Goalie Dom Hasek
Defenseman Larry Murphy
Defenseman Chris Chelios
Center Sergie Fedorov
Left Wing Shanahan
Right Wing Brett Hull

---------------------------------------------------

Edmontons' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Grant Fuhr 1981-91
Defenseman Paul Coffey 1980-87
Defenseman Kevin Lowe 1979-92, '96-98
Center Wayne Gretzky 1979-88
Left wing Glenn Anderson 1980-91, '95-96
Right wing Jari Kurri 1980-90

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Andy Moog 1980-87
Defenseman Charlie Huddy 1980-91
Defenseman Randy Gregg 1981-90
Center Mark Messier 1979-91
Left wing Esa Tikkanen 1984-93
Right wing Craig Simpson 1987-93

BEST PLAYER: Wayne Gretzky
BEST COACH: Glen Sather
BEST TEAM: 1983-84 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 5
-------------------------------------------------

Floridas' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie John Vanbiesbrouck 1993-98
Defenseman Robert Svehla 1994-2001
Defenseman Ed Jovanoski 1995-99
Center Rob Niedermayer 1993-2001
Left wing Ray Whitney 1997-2001
Right wing Pavel Bure 1999-2001

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Roberto Luongo 2000-2003
Defenseman Gord Murphy 1993-99
Defenseman Rhett Warrener 1995-99
Center Viktor Kozlov 1997-2003
Left wing Bill Lindsay 1993-99
Right wing Scott Mellanby 1993-2001

BEST PLAYER: John Vanbiesbrouck
BEST COACH: Dough MacLean
BEST TEAM: 1995-96 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS: 0
---------------------------------------------------------------

Los Angeles' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Rogie Vachon 1971-78
Defenseman Rob Blake 1989-2001
Defenseman Jay Wells 1979-88
Center Wayne Gretzky 1988-96
Left wing Luc Robitaille 1986-94, '97-2001
Right wing Dave Taylor 1977-94

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Kelly Hrudey 1988-96
Defenseman Mark Hardy 1979-88, '92-94
Defenseman Bob Murdoch 1973-79
Center Marcel Dionne 1975-87
Left wing Charlie Simmer 1977-85
Right wing Mike Murphy 1973-83

BEST PLAYER: Wayne Gretzky
BEST COACH: Bob Pulford
BEST TEAM: 1992-93 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS: 0
----------------------------------------------------


Minnesota's WildAll-Time Team

Positon Player Years

Goalie Manny Fernandez 2000-03
Defenseman Lubomir Sekeras 2000-03
Defenseman Filip Kuba 2000-03
Center Jim Dowd 2000-03
Left Wing Andrew Brunette 2001-03
Right Wing Marian Gaborik 2000-03


Position Player Years

Goalie Manny Fernandez 01-02-05-06
Defenseman Filip Kuba 01-02=06-06
Defenseman Andrei Zyuzin 02-03-05-06
Center Brian Rolston 02-03-05-06
Left wing Andrew Brunett 01-02-03-04
Right wing Marian Gaborik 01-02 -05-06


BEST PLAYER: Marian Gaborik
BEST COACH: Jacques Lemaire
BEST TEAM: 2001-02 (73-point second season)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

Stanley Cups - 0
-----------------------------------------------

Montreals' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Jacques Plante 1952-63
Defenseman Doug Harvey 1947-61
Defenseman Jacques Laperriere 1962-74
Center Jean Beliveau 1950-71
Left wing Steve Shutt 1972-85
Right wing Maurice Richard 1942-60

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Ken Dryden 1971-79
Defenseman Larry Robinson 1972-89
Defenseman J.C. Tremblay 1959-72
Center Howie Morenz 1923-34, '36-37
Left wing Aurel Joliat 1922-38
Right wing Guy Lafleur 1971-85

BEST PLAYER: Maurice Richard
BEST COACH: Toe Blake
BEST TEAM: 1943-44 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 23

Goalie Patrick Roy
Defenseman Serge Savard
Defenseman Chris Chelios
Center Saku Koivu
Left wing Mats Naslund
Right wing Alexei Kovalev

----------------------------------------------------
Nashville Predators


Nashville's All-Time Team

Positon Player Years

Goalie Mike Dunham 1998-2003
Defenseman Kimmo Dunham 1998-2003
Defenseman Bill Houlder 1999-2003
Center Cliff Ronning 1998-2002
Left Wing Vitali Yachmenev 1998-2003
Right Wing Scott Walker 1998-2003


Goalie Tomas Vokoun (G)
Defenseman Danil Markov
Defenseman Kimmo Timonen
Center Cliff Ronning/Steve Sullivan
Left wing Paul Kariya
Right wing Scott Walker



BEST PLAYERaul Kariya
BEST COACH:Barry Trotz
BEST TEAM: 05-06
STANLEY CUPS:0
BEST PLAYER: Mike Dunham
BEST COACH: Barry Trotz
BEST TEAM: 2000-01 (third in Central Division)
STANLEY CUPS: 0


--------------------------------------
New Jersey's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Martin Brodeur 1992-2003
Defenseman Scott Stevens 1991-2003
Defenseman Scott Niedermayer 1991-2003
Center Bobby Holik 1992-2002
Left wing Patrik Elias 1996-2003
Right wing John MacLean 1983-98

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Chico Resh
Defenseman Ken Daneyko
Defenseman Brian Rafalski
Center Kirk Muller
Left wing John Madden
Right wing Pat Verbeek

BEST PLAYER: Martin Brodeur
BEST COACH: Jacques Lemaire
BEST TEAM: 1999-2000 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 2
--------------------------------------------------


The N.Y. Islanders' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Bill Smith 1972-89
Defenseman Dennis Potvin 1973-88
Defenseman Ken Morrow 1980-89
Center Bryan Trottier 1975-90
Left wing John Tonelli 1978-86
Right wing Mike Bossy 1977-88

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Glenn Resch 1973-81
Defenseman Dave Lewis 1973-80
Defenseman Stefan Persson 1977-86
Center Pat LaFontaine 1984-91
Left wing Clark Gillies 1974-86
Right wing Bob Nystrom 1972-86

BEST PLAYER: Mike Bossy
BEST COACH: Al Arbour
BEST TEAM: 1980-81 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 4


---------------------------------------------------

The N.Y. Rangers' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Mike Richter 1989-2003
Defenseman Brad Park 1968-76
Defenseman Ching Johnson 1926-37
Center Jean Ratelle 1960-76
Left wing Vic Hadfield 1961-74
Right wing Rod Gilbert 1960-78

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Eddie Giacomin 1965-76
Defenseman Harry Howell 1952-69
Defenseman Brian Leetch 1987-2003
Center Frank Boucher 1926-38, '43-44
Left wing Adam Graves 1991-2001
Right wing Bill Cook 1926-37

BEST PLAYER: Rod Gilbert
BEST COACH: Lester Patrick
BEST TEAM: 1993-94 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 4

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...96194013/pg_30


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 04-12-2006 at 08:35 PM.
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04-12-2006, 04:29 AM
  #467
Leaf Lander
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Ottawa's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Ron Tugnutt 1996-2000
Defenseman Wade Redden 1996-2003
Defenseman Jason York/chara 1996-2001
Center Alexei Yashin/spezza 1993-2001
Left wing Shawn McEachern/Heatley 1996-2002
Right wing Daniel Alfredsson 1995-2003

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Patrick Lalime 1999-20003
Defenseman Chris Phillips 1997-2003
Defenseman Janne Laukkanen 1995-2000
Center Radek Bonk 1994-2003
Left wing Magnus Arvedson 1997-2003
Right wing Marian Hossa 1997-2003

BEST PLAYER: Daniel Alfredsson
BEST COACH: Jacques Martin
BEST TEAM: 1998-99 (Northeast Dividion champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

-----------------------------------------

Philadelphia's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Bernie Parent 1967-71, '73-79
Defenseman Mark Howe 1982-92
Defenseman Jimmy Watson 1972-82
Center Bobby Clarke 1969-84
Left wing Bill Barber 1972-85
Right wing Reggie Leach 1974-82

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Ron Hextall 1986-92, '94-99
Defenseman Eric Desjardins 1994-2003
Defenseman Joe Watson 1967-78
Center Rick MacLeish 1970-81, '83-84
Left wing John MeClair 1994-2003
Right wing Tim Kerr 1980-91

BEST PLAYER: Bobby Claeke
BEST COACH: Fred Shero
BEST TEAM: 1974-75 (Stanely Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 2
-----------------------------------------------

Phoenix's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Nikolai Khabibulin 1994-99
Defenseman Teppo Numminen 1988-2003
Defenseman Randy Carlyle 1983-93
Center Dale Hawerchuck 1981-90
Left wing Keith Tkachuk 1991-2001
Right wing Teemu Selanne 1992-96

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Sean Burke 1990-2003
Defenseman Dave Babych 1980-86
Defenseman Fredrick Olausson 1986-94
Center Thomas Steen 1981-95
Left wing Brian Mullen 1982-87
Right wing Paul MacLean 1981-88

BEST PLAYER: Dale Hawerchuk
BEST COACH: Bob Francis
BEST TEAM: 1984-85 (Western Conf. semifinalists)
STANLEY CUPS: 0
-------------------------------------------------

Pittsburgh's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Tom Barrasso 1988-200
Defenseman Paul Coffey 1987-92
Defenseman Ron Stackhouse 1973-82
Center Mario Lemieux 1984-97, 2000-03
Left wing Kevin Stevens 1987-95, 2001-02
Right wing Jaromir Jagr 1990-2001

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Michel Dion 1981-85
Defenseman Randy Carlyle 1978-84
Defenseman Larry Murphy 1990-95
Center Ron Francis 1991-98
Left wing Lowell MacDonald 1970-78
Right wing Rick Kehoe 1974-85

G Marc-Andre Fleury
D Kevin Hatcher
D Randy Carlyle
C SYL Apps JR/Sydney Crosby
RW Jean Pronovost
LW Mike Bullard

BEST PLAYER: Mario Lemieux
BEST COACH: Scotty Bowman
BEST TEAM: 1991-92 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 2
------------------------------

St. Louis' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Glenn Hall 1967-71
Defenseman Al MacInnis 1994-2003
Defenseman Chris Pronger 1995-2003
Center Bernie Federko 1976-89
Left wing Brian Sutter 1976-88
Right wing Brett Hull 1987-98

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Curtis Joseph 1989-95
Defenseman Barclay Plager 1967-77
Defenseman Rob Ramage 1982-88
Center Garry Unger 1970-79
Left wing Pavol Demitra 1996-2003
Right wing Joe Mullan 1981-86

BEST PLAYER: Brett Hull
BEST COACH: Scotty Bowman
BEST TEAM: 1968-69 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

----------------------------------------

San Jose's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Evgeni Nabokov 1999-2003
Defenseman Gary Suter 1998-2002
Defenseman Sandis Ozolinsh 1992-95
Center Mike Ricci 1997-2003
Left wing Jeff Friesen 1994-2001
Right wing Owen Nolan 1995-2003

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Arturs Irbe 1991-96
Defenseman Magnus Ragnarsson 1995-2003
Defenseman Brad Stuart 1999-2003
Center Vincent Damphousse 1998-2003
Left wing Tony Granato 1996-2001
Right wing Teemu Selanne 2000-2003

BEST PLAYER: Owen Nolan
BEST COACH: Darryl Sutter
BEST TEAM: 2001-02 (Pacific Division champs)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

----------------------------------------


Tampa Bay's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Nikolai Khabibulin 2000-2003
Defemmman Roman Hamrlik 1992-98
Defenseman Pavel Kubina 1997-2003
Center Brian Bradley 1992-98
Left wing Rob Zamuner 1992-99
Right wing Petr Klima 1993-96

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Daren Puppa 1993-2000
Defemmman Bill Houlder 1995-97, '99-2000
Defenseman Cory Cross 1993-99
Center Brad Richards 2000-03
Left wing Fredrik Modin 1999-2003
Right wing John Tucker 1992-96

G Sean Burke
D Dan Boyle
D Darryl Sydor
C Brad Richards/Vincent Lecavalier
R Martin St. Louis
L Dave Andreychuk

BEST PLAYER: Brian Bradley
BEST COACH: Terry Crisp
BEST TEAM: 1995-96 (only playoff qualifier)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

--------------------------------------------------


Toronto's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Turk Broda 1936-43, '45-52
Defenseman Tim Horton 1949-50, '51-70
Defenseman Borje Salming 1973-89
Center Darryl Sittler 1970-82
Left wing Frank Mahovlich 1956-68
Right wing Charlie Conacher 1929-38

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Johnny Bower 1958-70
Defenseman King Clancy 1930-37
Defenseman Carl Brewer 1957-64, 79-80
Center Syl Apps 1936-43, '45-48
Left wing Ace Bailey 1926-34
Right wing Lanny McDonald 1973-80

G -Ed Belfour/CUJO
D Al Iafrate
D Tomas Kaberle
C Doug Gilmour / Mats Sundin/ Dave Keon
L Dabe Andreychuck/ Gary Roberts/Wendle Clark
R Rick Vaive

BEST PLAYER: Tim Horton
BEST COACH: Punch Imlach
BEST TEAM: 1947-48 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 13

--------------------------------------------------

Vancouver's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Kirk McLean 1987-98
Defenseman Doug Lidster 1983-93
Defenseman Harold Snepsts 1974-84, '88-90
Center Thomas Gradin 1978-86
Left wing Don Lever 1972-80
Right wing Pavel Bure 1991-98

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Richard Brodeur 1980-88
Defenseman Dennis Kearns 1971-81
Defenseman Jyrki Lumme 1989-98
Center Patrik Sundstrom 1982-87
Left wing Markus Naslund 1995-2003
Right wing Stan Smyl 1978-91

BEST PLAYER: Pavel Bure
BEST COACH: Pat Quinn
BEST TEAM: 1992-93 (Smythe Division champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 0

Washington's All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Olaf Kolzig 1989-2003
Defenseman Rod Langway 1982-93
Defenseman Scott Stevens 1982-90
Center Dale Hunter 1987-99
Left Wing Bengt Gustafsson 1979-89
Right Wing Mike Gartner 1979-89

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Don Beaupre 1988-94
Defenseman Calle Johansson 1989-2003
Defenseman Kevin Hatcher 1984-94
Center Michael Pivonka 1986-99
Left Wing Steve Konowalchuk 1992-2003
Right Wing Peter Bondra 1991-2003

BEST PLAYER: Rod Langway
BEST COACH: Bryan Murray
BEST TEAM: 1997-98 (Stanley Cup runner-up)
STANLEY CUPS: 0


Last edited by Leaf Lander: 04-12-2006 at 08:24 PM.
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04-12-2006, 03:36 PM
  #468
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
-----------------------------------------------

Montreals' All-Time Team

FIRST TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Jacques Plante 1952-63
Defenseman Doug Harvey 1947-61
Defenseman Jacques Laperriere 1962-74
Center Jean Beliveau 1950-71
Left wing Steve Shutt 1972-85
Right wing Maurice Richard 1942-60

SECOND TEAM

Position Player Years

Goalie Ken Dryden 1971-79
Defenseman Larry Robinson 1972-89
Defenseman J.C. Tremblay 1959-72
Center Howie Morenz 1923-34, '36-37
Left wing Aurel Joliat 1922-38
Right wing Guy Lafleur 1971-85

BEST PLAYER: Maurice Richard
BEST COACH: Toe Blake
BEST TEAM: 1943-44 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 23

Goalie Patrick Roy
Defenseman Serge Savard
Defenseman Chris Chelios
Center Saku Koivu
Left wing Mats Naslund
Right wing Alexei Kovalev

----------------------------------------------------
I have some major disagreements with these selections. The most glaring is the exclusion of Dickie Moore from any of these teams. He is widely recongnized as the best LW in Habs history.

Here are my selections:

1st Team
Goalie Patrick Roy
Defenseman Doug Harvey 1947-61
Defenseman Larry Robinson
Center Jean Beliveau 1950-71
Left wing Dickie Moore
Right wing Maurice Richard 1942-60
Coach Toe Blake

2nd Team
Goalie Jacques Plante
Defenseman Serge Savard
Defenseman Sylvio Mantha
Center Howie Morenz 1923-34, '36-37
Left wing Steve Shutt
Right wing Guy Lafleur 1971-85
Coach Scotty Bowman

3rd Team
Goalie Bill Durnan
Defenseman Guy Lapointe
Defenseman JC Tremblay
Center Elmer Lach
Left wing Aurel Joliat
Right wing Boom Boom Geoffrion
Coach Dick Irvin

4th Team
Goalie Ken Dryden
Defenseman Jacques Laperriere
Defenseman Chris Chelios
Center Henri Richard
Left wing Bob Gainey
Right wing Yvan Cournoyer
Coach Pat Burns

5th Team
Goalie Georges Hainsworth
Defenseman Emile Bouchard
Defensman Tom Johnson
Center Jacques Lemaire
Left Wing Toe Blake
Right Wing Bobby Rousseau
Coach Demers

Honorable Mentions: Lalonde, Mahovlich, Naslund, Smith, Carbonneau, Koivu, Recchi, Damphousse, Muller, Provost, Malone, Vezina, Worsley

BEST PLAYER: Maurice Richard
BEST COACH: Toe Blake
BEST TEAM: 1976-77 (Stanley Cup champions)
STANLEY CUPS: 24


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 04-14-2006 at 07:54 AM.
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04-12-2006, 04:08 PM
  #469
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a typical 4th liner in todays nhl would skate circles around the superstars of the good ole days.

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04-12-2006, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wholeshow
a typical 4th liner in todays nhl would skate circles around the superstars of the good ole days.
You do realize that there's a mental side of the game, right? All-time greats are born to be all-time greats. They have the attitude, desire and determination to be the best ever. You can't teach a winner's mentality. You can't teach hockey sense. You can't teach anticipation or instincts. You either have them, or you don't.

Many, many players in today's game wouldn't be able to handle the game the way it was played 40 to 50 years ago. They'd get killed. Back then, everyone could hit. Everyone played defence. Even Bobby Hull, who never put up big PIMs, was as strong as anyone in today's game (The Golden Jet, as murray would tell you, is a freak of nature) and he wasn't afraid to get involved physically.

If success in hockey was only linked to skill level, Pavel Brendl is vying for the Rocket Richard Trophy, and Jason Bonsignore has a couple of top 10 scoring finishes.

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04-13-2006, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
You do realize that there's a mental side of the game, right? All-time greats are born to be all-time greats. They have the attitude, desire and determination to be the best ever. You can't teach a winner's mentality. You can't teach hockey sense. You can't teach anticipation or instincts. You either have them, or you don't.

Many, many players in today's game wouldn't be able to handle the game the way it was played 40 to 50 years ago. They'd get killed. Back then, everyone could hit. Everyone played defence. Even Bobby Hull, who never put up big PIMs, was as strong as anyone in today's game (The Golden Jet, as murray would tell you, is a freak of nature) and he wasn't afraid to get involved physically.

If success in hockey was only linked to skill level, Pavel Brendl is vying for the Rocket Richard Trophy, and Jason Bonsignore has a couple of top 10 scoring finishes.
Well said! Hull is a great example. His strenghth, speed and intelligence would make him an even bigger star in todays watered down NHl. The same goes for Howe, Orr & many others. Hockey in the 50's and 60's was another kind of game than the one played today.It was a more controlled grinding style that was physically tougher than today's hockey.To quote Milt Schmidt "The difference in the players then & now is Huge...We were all so hungry. If you failed, you went down to the minors and with only six teams, you might never get back to the NHL. It made you work harder and it made you play hurt. There was so much more hitting."

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06-03-2006, 07:13 PM
  #472
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Quote:
ESPNS The best hockey players of all time?

NHL2Night's Top 100 NHL Players of All Time
Rank Player 100-99
100 Adam Oates
99 Dave Keon
98 Paul Kariya
97 George Hainsworth
96 Joe Mullen
95 Serge Savard
94 Michel Goulet
93 Darryl Sittler
92 Borje Salming
91 Luc Robitaille

90 Markus Naslund
89 Jarome Iginla
88 Glenn Anderson
87 Eric Lindros
86 Phil Housley
85 Mike Modano
84 Rod Langway
83 Dave Andreychuk
82 Jean Ratelle
81 Johnny Bower

80 Brendan Shanahan
79 Joe Malone
78 Dino Ciccarelli
77 Norm Ullman
76 Pat LaFontaine
75 Scott Niedermayer
74 Denis Savard
73 Joe Nieuwendyk
72 Doug Gilmour
71 Chris Chelios

70 Chris Pronger
69 Mike Gartner
68 Dale Hawerchuk
67 Jeremy Roenick
66 Bob Gainey
65 Pavel Bure
64 Mark Howe
63 Sid Abel
62 Brian Leetch
61 Dickie Moore

60 Newsy Lalonde
59 John Bucyk
58 Alexander Mogilny
57 Al MacInnis
56 Yvan Cournoyer
55 Bill Durnan
54 Brad Park
53 Bill Cook
52 Scott Stevens
51 Bernie Geoffrion

50 Dit Clapper
49 Max Bentley
48 Peter Stastny
47 Milt Schmidt
46 Gilbert Perreault
45 Tim Horton
44 Tony Esposito
43 Ken Dryden
42 Sergei Fedorov
41 Bob Clarke

40 Frank Mahovlich
39 Howie Morenz
38 Ron Francis
37 Henri Richard
36 Charlie Conacher
35 Red Kelly
34 Grant Fuhr
33 Paul Coffey
32 Marcel Dionne
31 Steve Yzerman

30 Nicklas Lidstrom
29 Jari Kurri
28 Martin Brodeur
27 Brett Hull
26 Phil Esposito
25 Larry Robinson
24 Glenn Hall
23 Denis Potvin
22 Dominik Hasek
21 Jaromir Jagr

20 Terry Sawchuk
19 Ted Lindsay
18 Stan Mikita
17 Peter Forsberg
16 Joe Sakic
15 Jacques Plante
14 Mike Bossy
13 Guy Lafleur
12 Ray Bourque
11 Mark Messier

10 Jean Beliveau
9 Doug Harvey
8 Patrick Roy
7 Eddie Shore
6 Maurice Richard
5 Bobby Hull
4 Gordie Howe
3 Mario Lemieux
2 Bobby Orr
1 Wayne Gretzky

Al MacInnis and Chelios dropped Forsbberg is kind of high imo
Hasek ahead of brodeus -questionable
lidstrm ahead of yzerman -interesting
Gartner ahead of gilmour
Broda not on the list - he won 5 cups
syl apps gone
teeder kennedy no whee to be seen lol

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06-03-2006, 07:24 PM
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
Al MacInnis and Chelios dropped Forsbberg is kind of high imo
Hasek ahead of brodeus -questionable
lidstrm ahead of yzerman -interesting
Gartner ahead of gilmour
Broda not on the list - he won 5 cups
syl apps gone
teeder kennedy no whee to be seen lol
Bryan Trottier isn`t there either. ESPN really should`ve hired someone to proofread the list and point out the obvious omissions before they released it.

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06-03-2006, 08:12 PM
  #474
Leaf Lander
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maybe a top 100 list isnt enough anymore

maybe we need a top 200 list

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06-03-2006, 09:52 PM
  #475
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Like te top 5 a lot better than THN's after that I see a lot of omissions. Where are bathgate,delvecchio, Doug bentley etc. Seems to favour players of recent vintage.

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