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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:53 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
I hope they make the playoffs actually. With Gomez gone to be replaced by somebody who'll produce more than him, if Subban starts the year on time, if Markov is healthy and back to anything close his previous form, if Galchenyuk catches on and does good, if Kaberle's weight loss leads to a resurgence, if Bourque bounces back etc...

Lots of ifs, but if it all goes our way we'll be just fine. Hell, if Rask would pop his kneecap or something we could waltz in and take the division!
If you go to the casino and everything goes your way, you'll be rich.

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01-13-2013, 06:58 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The crux of your argument though seems to be that without him we'd tank. And I say that if our fortunes rise and fall with Thoms Plekanec then why even debate against a rebuild?
It's because I think Plekanec's value to this team, especially as constructed now, is worth more than what it would be in the abstract. Plekanec isn't some all time great but I don't think he's easily replacable, I think if you trade Plekanec you give up any notions of the team being competitive in the short term.

This team is in the rare position where most of the core is either not yet in its prime or already past it. IMO only Plekanec and Gorges as in the position where they can be called vets at the peak of their prime who aren't on a clear decline. Cole didn't look like he was on the decline last year but I'd be very surprised if he has the same ability to keep himself healthy he did last year.

I'm not arguing for or against a rebuild, I'm saying that if you remove Plekanec from this team I think a rebuild becomes unavoidable, at which point you want to move Gionta and Cole while they still have value.

Anyway I want to see how this team looks before anyone is traded, because I am opposed to going into the season with this planned out. If after the first quarter of the season the Habs are as bad as I suspect they will be, then yes, it's time to put everyone on the trade block, with everyone over the age of 25 available.

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01-13-2013, 07:08 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You need great players to win cups. They're usually at the top of the draft.

We've got a lot of good but not great players who will never win a cup with us. We should be single minded in our pursuit of a championship and realize that trading these guys will bring in assets that we can build with. Yeah, we'll probably sink in the standings but so what?

The whole 'tanking' philosophy is a misnomer. But rebuilding makes a hell of a lot of sense for us right now. Hell, we might wind up out of the playoffs anyway. Might as well get something out of it and deal vets for prospects/picks.
Rebuilding is one thing but the Habs aren't bad enough to "tank" year in and out. Last year was an anomaly that I hope we don't repeat.

With Price, Patches, PK, Gally, Tinordi etc we're building a stable of good young core players to build around. Tanking every year sets a terrible example to young players and is no guarantee that the draft will have the talent to add or become the players you want them to become.

I'd rather go with good management and a solid program that teaches them to win. But that's just me.

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01-13-2013, 07:20 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Rebuilding is one thing but the Habs aren't bad enough to "tank" year in and out. Last year was an anomaly that I hope we don't repeat.

With Price, Patches, PK, Gally, Tinordi etc we're building a stable of good young core players to build around. Tanking every year sets a terrible example to young players and is no guarantee that the draft will have the talent to add or become the players you want them to become.

I'd rather go with good management and a solid program that teaches them to win. But that's just me.
The title of this thread suggests a surgical tank and not a long-term tank.

The argument is that the Habs are in a position that they could theoretically end tanking by having a thorough tank this season, due to various factors.

Tinordi, Beaulieu, and Galchenyuk are three such factors. Without these guys, we can finish 4th last this year. Once they become good players, in 2 or 3 seasons, we'll be locked in to being whatever team we are and the tanking window will have closed.

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01-13-2013, 07:35 PM
  #780
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IMO a surgical tank means playing it by ear to some degree...the the Habs aren't going to make the playoffs, you unload pieces as the situation arises. I actually thought they did a very good job of it last year - by the middle of the season the team was a disaster and to Gauthier's credit, after a few awful moves he realized there was no trade that was going to redeem the season and instead unloaded Cammalleri, Gill and Kostitsyn, who had no future with the team.

That's why I don't think this is something you discuss until the season starts. If at some point we get a good deal for Plekanec, Gionta, Cole or Markov? Great. But I think there is a difference between saying everyone over a certain age should be available, and saying "x" player must go at all costs. Because if we are so bad we have to give up before we see what we have, we need more than a 1 year plan. If you are 1 year away from being relevant again, you aren't looking to dump core players.

So yes, I do think Plekanec is the most valuable Hab forward right now. That doesn't make him a star, but he's the type of do-everything player you need on a team that doesn't have 100 point forwards. It's like saying if you take away Bergeron from the Bruins they are no longer contenders until Seguin shows more. That doesn't mean Bergeron is a top 10 C. I still think Plekanec could be on the market, because unlike the Bruins we aren't contenders. But trading him is about finding the right market, because without him our forward corps is even more terribly constructed.

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01-13-2013, 07:46 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The way I see it, with Pacioretty/Gorges/Price locked up long-term, and Galchenyuk in the system, our stanley cup contention window is 2015-2018 or so.

We should definitely trade some vets, we can't trade all the vets in my opinion as that's hard to pull off, there's only so much demand in the trade market. We also need to go for the playoffs in the 2014-2015 season in order to develop our young players and transition to being a winning team, same as the oilers are doing this year.
That's probably accurate, however, it will also depend on what happens to those players as well. Someone can get injured, regress, get traded. There are a lot of factors. Except the main one is, the habs do not have the current set of players to win it this year or probably next. It would probably take another 1-2 years of solid drafting with near ready players to make an impact for the 2015 season. As much as we have core players, and prospects, every other team has the same. If not better prospects, and will accumulate more as well depending on their draft positions.

Right now, if MB wants to win for 2015-2018, it would be smart to trade anyone have value for picks/prospects that will not factor in that window of when we are ready to turn this club around. I just don't see us doing the necessary steps though for us to achieve the next level. I think we are destined to be a middle of the pack/somewhat competitive team for quite a while, never able to take the next step though since that will require sucking and getting several years worth of top picks.

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01-13-2013, 08:21 PM
  #782
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And the embarrassment around the NHL continues.

This loser mentality is a joke.

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01-13-2013, 08:26 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And the embarrassment around the NHL continues.

This loser mentality is a joke.
The losers are the people who dream for 8th place.

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01-13-2013, 08:28 PM
  #784
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people like to lose.thats all you can really say about the " tank " thing.

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01-13-2013, 08:29 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The losers are the people who dream for 8th place.
You mean like the Los Angeles Kings?

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01-13-2013, 08:39 PM
  #786
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All my Vcash says Lafleurs Guy wanted the Habs to tank prior to the 07-08 season.

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01-13-2013, 08:41 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
You mean like the Los Angeles Kings?
Has the point not been made 1000 times that the LA Kings were not a genuine "8th place" team?

They were an underachieving team in the regular season. Further, they made a major trade at the deadline by adding Jeff Carter. They were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year overall, with a terrible offense. With that one trade, a strategic goal-scoring acquisition, they rebalanced their lineup, and scored at an incredible clip in the playoffs. The Habs are not one major acquisition from being a contender, they are three major acquisitions from being a contender.

I think it's important to have ambition in life. You shouldn't aim for mediocrity, you should aim for excellence. Here are two summaries:

Loser mentality:
We are what we are. Let's hope that injuries disappear, that everybody overachieves, and maybe we can squeak into 8th place on tiebreaker on the last night of the regular season because the 9th place team loses in a shootout. Maybe then we can attend a few home playoff games. If not at keast we tried and we can give ourselves an "A for effort",

Winner meanly
I want to see a championship, I want to see excellence. Let us outline the steps necessary to see that happen, and let us implement those steps no matter how painful in the short-term.

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01-13-2013, 08:42 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
It's because I think Plekanec's value to this team, especially as constructed now, is worth more than what it would be in the abstract. Plekanec isn't some all time great but I don't think he's easily replacable, I think if you trade Plekanec you give up any notions of the team being competitive in the short term.
Why do you keep talking about his value to "this team"? THIS team isn't going anywhere with him anyway. So why is it important to keep him?

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
This team is in the rare position where most of the core is either not yet in its prime or already past it. IMO only Plekanec and Gorges as in the position where they can be called vets at the peak of their prime who aren't on a clear decline. Cole didn't look like he was on the decline last year but I'd be very surprised if he has the same ability to keep himself healthy he did last year.
This team isn't good enough to win now and it needs a lot more to be able to win in the future. We've got some good pieces yes, but we need more.


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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm not arguing for or against a rebuild, I'm saying that if you remove Plekanec from this team I think a rebuild becomes unavoidable, at which point you want to move Gionta and Cole while they still have value.
If we want to win, it's unavoidable anyway. We can either realize this and embrace it or continue to make the same mistakes we always have.
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Anyway I want to see how this team looks before anyone is traded, because I am opposed to going into the season with this planned out. If after the first quarter of the season the Habs are as bad as I suspect they will be, then yes, it's time to put everyone on the trade block, with everyone over the age of 25 available.
Planning it out gives it a greater chance of success. Waiting and seeing may mean injuries could happen (which is exactly what happened with Markov) or we move towards the inevitable fight for the last playoff spot ensuring we go nowhere and get a mediocre pick as always.
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Rebuilding is one thing but the Habs aren't bad enough to "tank" year in and out. Last year was an anomaly that I hope we don't repeat.
Right, we're not bad enough to rebuild nor are we good enough to win. So we sit in the middle... as we always do.

BTW, you don't want to repeat getting a player like Galchenyuk? Five years from now when he's our best scorer are you going to remember the dreadful season we just had? Would you remember this season if we got a superstar out of it?
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
With Price, Patches, PK, Gally, Tinordi etc we're building a stable of good young core players to build around. Tanking every year sets a terrible example to young players and is no guarantee that the draft will have the talent to add or become the players you want them to become.
Nobody is saying we should tank every year...
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I'd rather go with good management and a solid program that teaches them to win. But that's just me.
We've chosen the slow and steady path for a long time now. It's lead us nowhere. Good but not great teams lead to good but not great drafts and future teams wind up being good but not great, and the cycles continue...

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01-13-2013, 08:49 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And the embarrassment around the NHL continues.

This loser mentality is a joke.
Not having come close to a cup in two decades is a joke. Not having proactively PLANNED on how to build a winning team is a joke.

And yet, you continue to want to do things the old way. The same way.

We'll see how you feel when Galchenyuk turns into our best forward. Maybe then you will listen to common sense and reason.
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Originally Posted by FireBergevin View Post
All my Vcash says Lafleurs Guy wanted the Habs to tank prior to the 07-08 season.
I've wanted us to rebuild for over a decade now.

And I've been proven right.

Meanwhile we continue to choose the wrong path. And the apologists continue to defend the short term moves and point to a flukey season as though it constitutes some kind of success.

We haven't won jack in 20 years dude. Crowing about a flukey season just strengthens my position. Thank you for making my point.

Winners don't remember flukey seasons with 2nd round exits. They remember cups.

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01-13-2013, 08:52 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Has the point not been made 1000 times that the LA Kings were not a genuine "8th place" team?

They were an underachieving team in the regular season. Further, they made a major trade at the deadline by adding Jeff Carter. They were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year overall, with a terrible offense. With that one trade, a strategic goal-scoring acquisition, they rebalanced their lineup, and scored at an incredible clip in the playoffs. The Habs are not one major acquisition from being a contender, they are three major acquisitions from being a contender.

I think it's important to have ambition in life. You shouldn't aim for mediocrity, you should aim for excellence. Here are two summaries:

Loser mentality:
We are what we are. Let's hope that injuries disappear, that everybody overachieves, and maybe we can squeak into 8th place on tiebreaker on the last night of the regular season because the 9th place team loses in a shootout. Maybe then we can attend a few home playoff games. If not at keast we tried and we can give ourselves an "A for effort",

Winner meanly
I want to see a championship, I want to see excellence. Let us outline the steps necessary to see that happen, and let us implement those steps no matter how painful in the short-term.
Years ago I pointed to them as a rebuild who would someday go on to become a powerhouse. Not surprising it happened. Sure they gave up some pieces but ultimately they drafted high and landed their superstars who helped lead the way.

And yet now (as they always do) the same folks who criticized them back then are the ones who try now to paint themselves as having been right. Happened with the Hawks, the Pens... these people never learn.

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01-13-2013, 08:56 PM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
IMO a surgical tank means playing it by ear to some degree...the the Habs aren't going to make the playoffs, you unload pieces as the situation arises. I actually thought they did a very good job of it last year - by the middle of the season the team was a disaster and to Gauthier's credit, after a few awful moves he realized there was no trade that was going to redeem the season and instead unloaded Cammalleri, Gill and Kostitsyn, who had no future with the team.
Ironically, if we still had Cammalleri, I'd say go for the playoffs. Since we lack that option on our second line, I'm edging towards getting a bonafide player in the draft and go for it next year.

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01-13-2013, 09:05 PM
  #792
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Ironically, if we still had Cammalleri, I'd say go for the playoffs. Since we lack that option on our second line, I'm edging towards getting a bonafide player in the draft and go for it next year.
We are missing 3 major pieces and one secondary piece:

- Good depth scoring on the 2nd line. Cammalleri-Gionta would count, Bourque-Gionta does not. Bourque can't play on the left-side, and he'll never ever give you the hot streak that Cammalleri gave us in the 2009-2010 playoffs.
- A shot from the dmen on the PP in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski. We had a terrible PP last year. It reminds me of when we acquired Bergeron at the start of 2009-2010. Our PP improved to 7th in the league (without Markov) not just because Bergeron could score goals, but because the fear of Bergeron's shot led to more room for our forwards near the net, as opposing defenders repositioned.
- A physically imposing shutdown dman in the mould of prime-years Komisarek, or even last year's Hal Gill. Right now, our tallest dman is a 6'2" sophmore with a metal plate in his head that neutralizes his capacity to strike fear into the enemy -- we're not intimidating to play against. When enemy forwards see Markov, Gorges, Subban, Weber, or Diaz, they see people they need to outsmart or outskill... they don't see a threat.
- A legit enforcer.

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01-13-2013, 09:06 PM
  #793
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
We are missing 3 major pieces and one secondary piece:

- Good depth scoring on the 2nd line. Cammalleri-Gionta would count, Bourque-Gionta does not. Bourque can't play on the left-side, and he'll never ever give you the hot streak that Cammalleri gave us in the 2009-2010 playoffs.
- A shot from the dmen on the PP in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski. We had a terrible PP last year. It reminds me of when we acquired Bergeron at the start of 2009-2010. Our PP improved to 7th in the league (without Markov) not just because Bergeron could score goals, but because the fear of Bergeron's shot led to more room for our forwards near the net, as opposing defenders repositioned.
- A physically imposing shutdown dman in the mould of prime-years Komisarek, or even last year's Hal Gill. Right now, our tallest dman is a 6'2" sophmore with a metal plate in his head that neutralizes his capacity to strike fear into the enemy -- we're not intimidating to play against. When enemy forwards see Markov, Gorges, Subban, Weber, or Diaz, they see people they need to outsmart or outskill... they don't see a threat.
- A legit enforcer.
Sure would be nice to have a number one center too.

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01-13-2013, 09:06 PM
  #794
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You cannot rebuild in montreal without taking a serious hit to the business from a habs pov. After all the point for them is to make money and rebuilding will lose them money they will never regain for about 3-4 years , because there will be some empty seats.

Why do that when your seats are full now, you don't understand the way a business works they already have full seats at every game, they already are making a lot of money, if they rebuilt they lose millions that even a cup could not get back.

From a sports pov it's maybe the right solution but unfortunately it's not the only aspect.

Like a lot of poster said the habs already have a solid core at each position they just need maybe a 2nd line winger and a number 1 center ( They drafted him this year maybe he will deliver). We have Price, Subban, paciorretty, Desharnais, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Collberg, Galchenyuk, Bozon, Kristo, Gallagher, not too shaby i think.

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01-13-2013, 09:13 PM
  #795
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You cannot rebuild in montreal without taking a serious hit to the business from a habs pov.
Stop making excuses. We've had poor teams for years now and the club is making money hand over fist.

This is just a BS argument.
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After all the point for them is to make money and rebuilding will lose them money they will never regain for about 3-4 years , because there will be some empty seats.

Why do that when your seats are full now, you don't understand the way a business works they already have full seats at every game, they already are making a lot of money, if they rebuilt they lose millions that even a cup could not get back.
Of course they can make their money back. Do you think Boston is going to be making its money back over the next few years? Do you think LA is going to be making money back after its rebuild?

Please don't give me this corporate crap about us not being able to do it. Unlike other teams we actually CAN tank for five years and still be profitable. No matter what the club will make money.

I just hope that Geoff Molson was serious about actually wanting to win a cup. Having a private owner is a good thing. Just ask the Leafs.
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From a sports pov it's maybe the right solution but unfortunately it's not the only aspect.

Like a lot of poster said the habs already have a solid core at each position they just need maybe a 2nd line winger and a number 1 center ( They drafted him this year maybe he will deliver). We have Price, Subban, paciorretty, Desharnais, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Collberg, Galchenyuk, Bozon, Kristo, Gallagher, not too shaby i think.
It's a smart move from a hockey aspect and a money one. Hopefully Molson is a long term thinker and understands this.

Building a strong team will pay off in the long run.

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01-13-2013, 09:13 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The losers are the people who dream for 8th place.
Not far from the truth.


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01-13-2013, 09:20 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Happened with the Hawks, the Pens... these people never learn.
I see your Hawks and Pens and I raise you with Columbus, Florida, Phoenix, NYI.

I bet these team just love the tanking!

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01-13-2013, 09:26 PM
  #798
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I see your Hawks and Pens and I raise you with Columbus, Florida, Phoenix, NYI.

I bet these team just love the tanking!
Get your facts straight man,

Phoenix hasn't drafted high that often. One of the two top five picks this past decade was mismanaged enough to run away (Kyle Turris) and we still don't know how good they'll be. They never rebuilt.

Despite Columbus sucking they still managed to draft a Rocket Richard winner. We haven't had this since Lafleur. They've also sucked at development. All you have to do is look at how they ruined Steve Mason (and they did ruin him.)

Florida had Luongo (traded for as a prospect) and dealt him for a bag of toys. That's not a rebuild problem its a stupidity problem.


The Islanders are the poster boys FOR rebuilding. They dealt away Luongo, Bertuzzi, Spezza, Chara, Jokinen, Redden as well as others. Basically a Stanley cup winning team. All they had to do was stick to the rebuild. They are actually proof that rebuilding and patience works.

Look at the Leafs, another club that kept trying to avoid rebuilding and they perpetually sucked while giving away Rask, Hamilton, Seguin and others...

Unlike Columbus we have the best scouting in the league and resources that they can only dream of. Our picks have been successful (for where they've been drafted) its just that our scouts never have any top picks to work with.

Cup winners are usually rebuilds. It's a map that's repeatable and makes sense. But we've avoided it. And that's why we've sucked. Constantly finishing 8th or 9th. Not good enough to win, no high picks. Rinse, wash, repeat.

And who are our best players and prospects? How did we get them?


Price (drafted 5th)
Paccioretti (traded for as a pick in a rebuild move)
Subban (2nd round)
Galchenyuk (3rd overall)

3 of the 4 cornerstones that we see as the future of our team came via the rebuild method. Not bad considering we barely ever have gone the rebuild route.

It's worked for us. So why not do more of this? Why are you so afraid of building a team that might actually be able win a cup someday?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-13-2013 at 09:33 PM.
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01-13-2013, 09:35 PM
  #799
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
We are missing 3 major pieces and one secondary piece:

- Good depth scoring on the 2nd line. Cammalleri-Gionta would count, Bourque-Gionta does not. Bourque can't play on the left-side, and he'll never ever give you the hot streak that Cammalleri gave us in the 2009-2010 playoffs. (Galchenyuk - Collberg)
- A shot from the dmen on the PP in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski. We had a terrible PP last year. It reminds me of when we acquired Bergeron at the start of 2009-2010. Our PP improved to 7th in the league (without Markov) not just because Bergeron could score goals, but because the fear of Bergeron's shot led to more room for our forwards near the net, as opposing defenders repositioned. (Subban - needs more seasoning but he has the shot)
- A physically imposing shutdown dman in the mould of prime-years Komisarek, or even last year's Hal Gill. Right now, our tallest dman is a 6'2" sophmore with a metal plate in his head that neutralizes his capacity to strike fear into the enemy -- we're not intimidating to play against. When enemy forwards see Markov, Gorges, Subban, Weber, or Diaz, they see people they need to outsmart or outskill... they don't see a threat. (Tinordi)
- A legit enforcer. (White, Moen and Prust do this by committee)
Galchenyuk is also the center we're looking for.

We need to wait a few more years but we have the pieces. A few more years gives us a few more drafts. Draft as many top 6 forwards as possible.

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01-13-2013, 09:36 PM
  #800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danadiens View Post
I see your Hawks and Pens and I raise you with Columbus, Florida, Phoenix, NYI.

I bet these team just love the tanking!
Those 4 teams cannot spend above the cap floor.

Tavares, Strome, Nash, Zherdev, Weiss, Huberdeau, etc can only help you so much if they play alone.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, etc were all able to go to the cap and surround their stars once they had the team nucleus set up through high drafting.

For example, Chicago added Marian Hossa prior to their cup run on a 60 million dollar contract. He was a big help to Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane.

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