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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
01-13-2013, 08:38 PM
  #801
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Galchenyuk is also the center we're looking for.

We need to wait a few more years but we have the pieces. A few more years gives us a few more drafts. Draft as many top 6 forwards as possible.
I was talking about the present, not the future.

By the time Collberg and Tinordi are good enough to help, players like Gionta, Cole, etc will be that much closer to retirement.

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01-13-2013, 08:41 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I was talking about the present, not the future.

By the time Collberg and Tinordi are good enough to help, players like Gionta, Cole, etc will be that much closer to retirement.
That's fine. When they're ready is when Bergevin should go after the next bunch of top UFAs to challenge for the Cup. Until we have that depth, we should build through the draft.

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01-13-2013, 08:43 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Those 4 teams cannot spend above the cap floor.

Tavares, Strome, Nash, Zherdev, Weiss, Huberdeau, etc can only help you so much if they play alone.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, etc were all able to go to the cap and surround their stars once they had the team nucleus set up through high drafting.

For example, Chicago added Marian Hossa prior to their cup run on a 60 million dollar contract. He was a big help to Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane.
Zherdev? Was once a legit prospect but busted.

We have a good core and players like Gionta, Cole, Kaberle etc can be replaced via free agency, trade or draft they are just some meat to the bone that is Price, Subban, collberg, galchenyuk, Beaulieu, Tinordi etc.

I'm i the only one that is optimistic about our future we are not far away from having a playoff built team and when that will be the case success will come. It's not the better team that always win it,s the more consistent and well built.

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01-13-2013, 08:45 PM
  #804
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No matter how you try to spin it, wanting to tank before the season starts is just plain wrong, it is a loser mentality.

1st in the league doesn't guarantee you the cup.
8th in the conference doesn't mean you can't win the cup.

I want Habs to win the most games possible this season. I will not wish the Habs to lose a game before they even start playing it.

We don't need a miracle to win the cup. If the stars are aligned, you never know.

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01-13-2013, 08:48 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
We don't need a miracle to win the cup. If the stars are aligned, you never know.
If you need all of the stars to align, then you need a miracle.

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01-13-2013, 08:53 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
No matter how you try to spin it, wanting to tank before the season starts is just plain wrong, it is a loser mentality.
Realizing that you aren't good enough to win and doing something about it is practical. And there is ZERO wrong with rebuilding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
1st in the league doesn't guarantee you the cup.
8th in the conference doesn't mean you can't win the cup.
And you can't win the lottery without buying a ticket. That doesn't mean you should quit your job and spend everything you've got on getting as many tickets as you can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
I want Habs to win the most games possible this season. I will not wish the Habs to lose a game before they even start playing it.
Nobody is wishing them to lose. We're saying they should rebuild.

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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
We don't need a miracle to win the cup. If the stars are aligned, you never know.
Right. Anyone can play, anyone can win. So get your super 7 ticket today!

Or you know, you could proactively plan on trying to build a winning team and take the steps required to go about doing this.

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01-13-2013, 08:58 PM
  #807
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Not this garbage again. Wasn't for it last season, am not for it this season. Going to cheer for the habs to win each and every game.

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01-13-2013, 09:02 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If you need all of the stars to align, then you need a miracle.
Statistically, at this time, we have 1 chance out of 30 to win the cup. And it almost doubles if we can make it to the playoffs. And you never know what happens in the playoffs. The best team on paper is not always the team that will come out as winners.

How can you wish the Habs to suck, miss the playoffs even before the season starts.

Are you telling me the Oilers and Islanders are front runners for the cup in the upcoming years because they are tanking every year?

There's way more than 5 good players each year to draft. A team that drafts, manages, develops well can be successful too.

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01-13-2013, 09:02 PM
  #809
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I wouldn't root for a team that tried to intentionally lose for any reason.

Any "fan" who feels that way outta have their heads checked IMO. I want to see my team win, become successful and the players within are better for it and we can attract better FAs. Once you have that you can trade away players for prospects and picks as continue to build through the draft. I don't think you necessarily have to tank to be successful even though it can be effective. It's not the only way to build a franchise.

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01-13-2013, 09:04 PM
  #810
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Do people honestly think that the only way to win a cup is to attempt to win it every single year? Do people honestly think that maximizing your performance in every given season is the only way to become a champion?

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01-13-2013, 09:07 PM
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I wouldn't root for a team that tried to intentionally lose for any reason.

Any "fan" who feels that way outta have their heads checked IMO.
Let's try again:

Loser mentality:
We are what we are. Let's hope that injuries disappear, that everybody overachieves, and maybe we can squeak into 8th place on tiebreaker on the last night of the regular season because the 9th place team loses in a shootout. Maybe then we can attend a few home playoff games. If not at keast we tried and we can give ourselves an "A for effort",

Winner meanly
I want to see a championship, I want to see excellence. Let us outline the steps necessary to see that happen, and let us implement those steps no matter how painful in the short-term.

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01-13-2013, 09:07 PM
  #812
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I can see how some find it annoying to promote a rebuild prior to the 1st game , as they also are hopeful in a fresh start with new management.

It's one of things that we obviously should do in theory however the less objective fan in us wants to see some games before we jump on the tank wagon

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:13 PM
  #813
Rosso Scuderia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Let's try again:

Loser mentality:
We are what we are. Let's hope that injuries disappear, that everybody overachieves, and maybe we can squeak into 8th place on tiebreaker on the last night of the regular season because the 9th place team loses in a shootout. Maybe then we can attend a few home playoff games. If not at keast we tried and we can give ourselves an "A for effort",

Winner meanly
I want to see a championship, I want to see excellence. Let us outline the steps necessary to see that happen, and let us implement those steps no matter how painful in the short-term.
Loser mentality: Wanting the team to fail miserably BEFORE the season starts.
Winner mentality: You play to win the game.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:15 PM
  #814
shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Loser mentality: Wanting the team to fail miserably BEFORE the season starts.
Winner mentality: You play to win the game.
Here, here!

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:16 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Realizing that you aren't good enough to win and doing something about it is practical. And there is ZERO wrong with rebuilding.


And you can't win the lottery without buying a ticket. That doesn't mean you should quit your job and spend everything you've got on getting as many tickets as you can.



Nobody is wishing them to lose. We're saying they should rebuild.


Right. Anyone can play, anyone can win. So get your super 7 ticket today!

Or you know, you could proactively plan on trying to build a winning team and take the steps required to go about doing this.

Are you seriously comparing the chances the Habs win the Cup with me winning the jackpot in the lottery?

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:17 PM
  #816
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If it takes 2 steps back to move forward, then so be it.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:19 PM
  #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Getz View Post
Not this garbage again. Wasn't for it last season, am not for it this season. Going to cheer for the habs to win each and every game.
Nobody is suggesting that we root for the team to lose. Stop being silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Statistically, at this time, we have 1 chance out of 30 to win the cup.
No we don't. Not all teams are created equally and if you don't understand this it explains why you don't understand what's actually being discussed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
And it almost doubles if we can make it to the playoffs. And you never know what happens in the playoffs. The best team on paper is not always the team that will come out as winners.
Yeah, right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
How can you wish the Habs to suck, miss the playoffs even before the season starts.
Nobody said they did. We said they should rebuild and deal away vets for prospects. If we sink in the standings... so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Are you telling me the Oilers and Islanders are front runners for the cup in the upcoming years because they are tanking every year?
The Oilers will probably have a better team than we will... and that could be as soon as this year. That's what happened with other rebuilding clubs that have leapfrogged us over the years including Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
There's way more than 5 good players each year to draft. A team that drafts, manages, develops well can be successful too.
Sure. But drafting high consistently usually results in finding a superstar. Superstars lead to cups. Having one doesn't mean you'll win a cup. But if you don't have one, it's next to impossible to win.

Notice that we haven't had a true superstar in the past two decades. Notice also that we haven't drafted high in the past three decades. Notice that we haven't won any cups in two decades and that we've usually been treading water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I wouldn't root for a team that tried to intentionally lose for any reason.
Good for you. What does that have to do with anything?

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:21 PM
  #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Are you seriously comparing the chances the Habs win the Cup with me winning the jackpot in the lottery?
I'm seriously showing you the ridiculous premise of your argument. Again, the fact that you think that all 30 teams have an equal shot at the cup proves that you don't know what you're talking about.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:24 PM
  #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Loser mentality: Wanting the team to fail miserably BEFORE the season starts.
Winner mentality: You play to win the game.
Nobody wants the team to fail.

I want to see the team win the cup as soon as possible: 2014-2015.

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01-13-2013, 09:25 PM
  #820
shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody is suggesting that we root for the team to lose. Stop being silly.


No we don't. Not all teams are created equally and if you don't understand this it explains why you don't understand what's actually being discussed here.


Yeah, right...


Nobody said they did. We said they should rebuild and deal away vets for prospects. If we sink in the standings... so be it.

The Oilers will probably have a better team than we will... and that could be as soon as this year. That's what happened with other rebuilding clubs that have leapfrogged us over the years including Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago.

Sure. But drafting high consistently usually results in finding a superstar. Superstars lead to cups. Having one doesn't mean you'll win a cup. But if you don't have one, it's next to impossible to win.

Notice that we haven't had a true superstar in the past two decades. Notice also that we haven't drafted high in the past three decades. Notice that we haven't won any cups in two decades and that we've usually been treading water.


Good for you. What does that have to do with anything?
It has everything to do with it. I don't watch sports so I can watch my favourite team lose all the time. In fact, that makes me not want to watch them. So rooting for your team to lose is rather counter intuitive.

Besides, the playoffs are a different animal all together. Once you're in, anything can happen and often does. Did LA want to tank last year even though they barely made it into the playoffs? They could have added another top prospect and been better for it down the road. No, you play to win and when you do that, sometimes good things happen. Bottom seeds knock out top seeds all the time. Habs have done it as many other teams have.

When I watch the Habs, I want to see a win.

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01-13-2013, 09:28 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
That's fine. When they're ready is when Bergevin should go after the next bunch of top UFAs to challenge for the Cup. Until we have that depth, we should build through the draft.
This is Montreal, ticket prices are high, and the fans expect the club to spend to near the cap. What can be done is take on short-term contracts that expire every year or two until we are ready to make the move you suggest. Besides, every team needs some vets to teach the youngsters how to win, otherwise you get a NYI or Edmonton situation...lots of young draftees but no real progress.

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01-13-2013, 09:30 PM
  #822
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This thread is beyond pointless. No franchise will ever try to intentionally lose games so talking about it like its some strategy the Habs should employ is preposterous.

Later.

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01-13-2013, 09:32 PM
  #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Loser mentality: Wanting the team to fail miserably BEFORE the season starts.
Winner mentality: You play to win the game.
Okay, I guess I'll ask the question more directly, and that might start things moving.

Here's a scenario: you have to make a choice as the GM of this team. That is, to plug holes with UFAs to maximize your chance of winning the cup this year, or not plug those holes to maximize your draft picks.

This year you may increase your chances of winning the cup from 50:1 to say 45:1. By increasing the value of your draft picks you have another draft like 2007.

Now, both decisions have risk. Absolutely they both do. In the first strategy, you lose in the playoffs, the UFAs leave a la Edmonton post 2006, and your draft bombs because you pick ~22nd, and the players simply aren't there. In the second strategy, despite your high picks, they might all turn out not to be impact players.

My question is not which one do you think is inherently superior. There is no deterministic answer here. My question is based on the assumption that the team with more talent will generally do better than the team with less talent. So, the question is: which strategy do you think will lead to accumulating more talent on your team in the near future?

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01-13-2013, 09:40 PM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
It has everything to do with it. I don't watch sports so I can watch my favourite team lose all the time. In fact, that makes me not want to watch them. So rooting for your team to lose is rather counter intuitive.
Nobody is rooting for the team to lose dude...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Besides, the playoffs are a different animal all together. Once you're in, anything can happen and often does.
No it doesn't. The top teams almost always win the cup. ONE 8th place team in history has won the cup. It's not a smart strategy to try to go for 8th at the expense of a rebuild when you know your team probably isn't good enough to win anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Did LA want to tank last year even though they barely made it into the playoffs?
They are the exception, not the rule. It's almost always the top tier teams winning the cups.

Moreover, LA was a top rated team going into the year. They performed below expectations and then caught fire. They had Quick, Kopitar and Doughty. All legit young stars two of whom were top ten picks.

We are seen as MAYBE being a team that might be able to squeak into the playoffs. There's a huge difference here. We've been spinning our wheels for a long time now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
They could have added another top prospect and been better for it down the road. No, you play to win and when you do that, sometimes good things happen. Bottom seeds knock out top seeds all the time. Habs have done it as many other teams have.
Knocking off a team is not the same as winning a cup. I'm sorry but a 2nd round exit instead of a 1st means nothing to me. It shouldn't mean anything to you either. There's no progression... we haven't been consistently getting better year over year. It's a constant struggle for 8th. It would be different if we were constantly improving but we aren't. It's always one step forward, one step back...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
When I watch the Habs, I want to see a win.
Win what?

I want us to win a cup someday. I understand that it may require some sacrifice. In poker you don't go all in on every hand right? Sometimes you fold when it makes sense. Going all in year after year is what we've done and it's gotten us nowhere.

I also understand that we're not good enough to win a cup as we are constructed right now. You understand this too. You just aren't willing to admit it. Instead you dig your heels into false belief that we have the same shot at the cup as the top tier teams do. We don't.

Yeah, we can win a round or two. We can upset some teams. That DOES happen every year. But those Cinderella teams that nobody expects to win... don't. They don't win cups. And going all in on a team that's a risky bet at 8th to begin with doesn't make sense. Esp when we have younger players that we can build around. What's wrong with trying to add more of those kinds of players?

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01-13-2013, 09:49 PM
  #825
Rosso Scuderia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Okay, I guess I'll ask the question more directly, and that might start things moving.

Here's a scenario: you have to make a choice as the GM of this team. That is, to plug holes with UFAs to maximize your chance of winning the cup this year, or not plug those holes to maximize your draft picks.

This year you may increase your chances of winning the cup from 50:1 to say 45:1. By increasing the value of your draft picks you have another draft like 2007.

Now, both decisions have risk. Absolutely they both do. In the first strategy, you lose in the playoffs, the UFAs leave a la Edmonton post 2006, and your draft bombs because you pick ~22nd, and the players simply aren't there. In the second strategy, despite your high picks, they might all turn out not to be impact players.

My question is not which one do you think is inherently superior. There is no deterministic answer here. My question is based on the assumption that the team with more talent will generally do better than the team with less talent. So, the question is: which strategy do you think will lead to accumulating more talent on your team in the near future?
Sorry, as a GM or coach of this team, TANKING is not and will never be an option. Simple as that. Not before the beginning of the season. That is just wrong. Maybe late in the season because we are out of the playoffs.

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