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RNH for Benn

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Old
01-13-2013, 04:46 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
The previous poster argued that Benn was better than RNH because Benn is a "complete package".

Players that aren't "complete packages" are often excellent players. The GOAT wasn't a "complete package".
Yeah and thats the thing a player that can fill a role in an elite capacity is often worth more than a player that can fill multiple roles in a good fashion. Hopkins has a rare ability to impact the ability of his teammates to produce, especially on the PP. This is a teenager still, Benn being better than him now when he's 4 years older isn't a bad thing. The fact that it's even close despite Hopkins still reselmbling a 12 year old is a remarkable testament to his talent.

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01-13-2013, 04:52 PM
  #77
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Or even worse, someone like Brendan Morrow! Geez, how will he ever survive.

Oh wait...

what was that video trying to prove?

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01-13-2013, 04:54 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
I really hope RNH wasn't just compared to Gretzky in anything more than style...
I hear it way too often by oiler fans

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01-13-2013, 04:57 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
The previous poster argued that Benn was better than RNH because Benn is a "complete package".

Players that aren't "complete packages" are often excellent players. The GOAT wasn't a "complete package".
i understand that - but Gretzky transcends hockey. no one except for Lemieux and Orr can touch what he's accomplished.

you have two great players in RNH and Benn - but saying that Benn ain't **** because being a 'complete package' didn't stop Gretzky from being a hockey god is just silly.

i'm sure you're not insisting that RNH has the potential to be on Gretzky's level... that's why bringing up The Great One doesn't make for a good argument.

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01-13-2013, 05:57 PM
  #80
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As an Oiler fan, I have no desire to trade RNH for Benn. I would want Benn for sure, anyone would. BUT, not for RNH.

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01-13-2013, 06:00 PM
  #81
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As far as Benn's potential is concerned.. From what I recall he was a PPG+ player the entire season until about the last quarter of the season..which included coming back from the thigh skate cut and playing a lot with guys like Ott and Burish. The only wingers on the team who could score, Eriksson and Ryder, stayed on Ribeiro's line after that. Plus he was getting a lot of defensive zone starts..he was basically the checking line, because Ribeiro and Ryder suck at D and the third line was getting dominated. He also never got much PP time last season. Ribeiro would start the PP and never leave the ice. He was elite in five on five scoring per 60 minutes.

I think Benn can be a guy who starts to average a PPG/season if he's playing with quality linemates, and can get between 90-100 points a time or three.

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:06 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
So you don't have a problem with a 100 point/80 point with better defensive and much better physical game assessment? How is an 80 point excellent defensively and physically center not rare. Are Toews and Kopitar not rare?
Do you know what we're talking about? You know that Hopkins was 18 last season right? These are the best teenage seasons in the modern era (min. 50 games):

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Since the early/mid 90's only Crosby and Kopitar put up better years, and Toews was tied. Kopitar was better by .01 so it was essentially the same and Hopkins was still a year younger than both him and Toews. If you want to talk about rare, this is it right here. He literally has the 2nd most impressive rookie season since Crosby. So oddly enough this answers you're question, yes Kopitar and Toews are rare (just like Hopkins). But do you really think Benn's on that level? I don't.

It's rare depending on your scope of discussion. I'm talking about Hopkins being a likely Hall of Fame talent, Benn will likely be a Hall of very good. I'm not saying what will happen in the future but based on the evidence so far it's hard not to conclude that perhaps Ryan Nugent Hopkins is a player with an immense potential. Centers with size and two way games are not "rare" in the same kind of way. Kesler, Backes, Kopitar, Toews, Backstrom, Spezza, Stamkos, Zajac, Malkin, Carter, Henrique are all two way centers with size and that's just off the top of my head. A guy making a PP from one of the leagues worst to the 3rd best, and it was #1 for most of the year, that's rare. Hopkins is far far far more rare than a player type than Jamie Benn. Nevermind he's not that small at 6'1 and has been compared to Datsuyk for his terrific skating and defensive acume. People act as if playing a game predicated on intelligence as opposed to size and strength is a disadvantage despite most times the opposite being true. Even the best two way centers with size mostly play a game where they utilize space with intelligence and skill as opposed to creating it with brawn.




Quote:
A year from now Benn for Giroux may not be considered all that unreasonable. He's ahead of where Giroux was when they were the same age. .
Do you not realize how hilarious this argument is in a Hopkins vs Benn debate. I'll tell you what since you made the argument for me i'll just copy and paste and change the name:

"He's ahead of where Benn was when they were the same age"

Quote:
I'm just saying a bit less homerific perspective may be in order before unloading all over the place over RNH's rookie season playing sheltered minutes with Hall and Eberle.

By sheltered minutes you mean competition tougher than what Benn faced, right? Hopkins faced top 6 competition so you're idea of sheltered is a little off. Two way guys like Ladd, Kesler played very similar minutes in terms of Quality of competition, as did the Sedins, Stamkos-St.Louis, and so on.


And by sheltered minutes you mean being hard matched against the other teams top pairing, right?



He certainly got a nice push in terms of zonestarts at 63% but it's not as unusual for an offensive center as you'd think. The Sedins got something like an 80% ZS and many teams top offensive unit are in the high 50's plus. Hopkins faced tougher competition on the whole than you'd like to insinuate.

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:19 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ReimerForPM View Post
Personal opinion:

RNH >> Benn

This is based on how high I think the potential upside for RNH is
Opinion: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

There is a lot of opinion on this site.

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Do you know what we're talking about? You know that Hopkins was 18 last season right? These are the best teenage seasons in the modern era (min. 50 games):

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Since the early/mid 90's only Crosby and Kopitar put up better years, and Toews was tied. Kopitar was better by .01 so it was essentially the same and Hopkins was still a year younger than both him and Toews. If you want to talk about rare, this is it right here. He literally has the 2nd most impressive rookie season since Crosby. So oddly enough this answers you're question, yes Kopitar and Toews are rare (just like Hopkins). But do you really think Benn's on that level? I don't.

It's rare depending on your scope of discussion. I'm talking about Hopkins being a likely Hall of Fame talent, Benn will likely be a Hall of very good. I'm not saying what will happen in the future but based on the evidence so far it's hard not to conclude that perhaps Ryan Nugent Hopkins is a player with an immense potential. Centers with size and two way games are not "rare" in the same kind of way. Kesler, Backes, Kopitar, Toews, Backstrom, Spezza, Stamkos, Zajac, Malkin, Carter, Henrique are all two way centers with size and that's just off the top of my head. A guy making a PP from one of the leagues worst to the 3rd best, and it was #1 for most of the year, that's rare. Hopkins is far far far more rare than a player type than Jamie Benn. Nevermind he's not that small at 6'1 and has been compared to Datsuyk for his terrific skating and defensive acume. People act as if playing a game predicated on intelligence as opposed to size and strength is a disadvantage despite most times the opposite being true. Even the best two way centers with size mostly play a game where they utilize space with intelligence and skill as opposed to creating it with brawn.
Hopkins is being compared to Datsyuk? The same Datsyuk who was a virtual nobody for 5-6 years before exploding? Do you realize that good early seasons are not the end-all be-all for players?

Ovechkin put up 100 points in his rookie season playing with 3rd liners. Did you expect him to progress to a perennial 150 point player? I'm sure some people did, but most knew it wasn't gonna happen. Stamkos had a very average rookie season yet is now in the same conversation as Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin. Duchene's rookie season obliterated Tavares, guess NYI ****ed up there.

And great job on lumping Zajac, Carter, Kesler, Henrique and Backes with players like Toews, Kopitar and Stamkos. Surprised I don't see Horcoff in there too. If you want to just pigeonhole Benn as "two way center with size", then I guess slick offensive centers with vision a la Spezza, MacDonald, Duchene, Derek Roy or Brad Richards aren't that rare either.

Also I didn't follow Edmonton too close, but I assume he played on the PP with Hall, Eberle, Smyth and Whitney or some other OFD. Whitney is one of the best PPQBs in the league, Smyth is arguably the best at working the net. Hall and Eberle have exceptional offensive talents of their own and have really come into their own this year. I'm sure RNH was a huge part of it but its not like he carried 4 scrubs to the best PP in the league. I don't think any team aside from Philly, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Tampa or Washington could put up a better 4 player supporting cast.

Quote:
Do you not realize how hilarious this argument is in a Hopkins vs Benn debate. I'll tell you what since you made the argument for me i'll just copy and paste and change the name:

"He's ahead of where Benn was when they were the same age"
It's hilarious either because you don't get it or choose to misrepresent it. Age is an important component but not end-all be-all. Numerous other factors come into play. Benn has elite offensive tools, maybe not as elite as RNH but top line caliber. He has a great head for the game, great defensive instincts and is very physical. You're saying you don't think Benn can be on Toews/Kopitar's level. Why not? He's good enough offensively to be a ~PPG player, his defense is not at their level but not too far behind and still improving, and physically he's superior to both. The three of them being more or less differently skewed versions of the same player through their prime isn't unthinkable.

Unless you're confident in RNH becoming the next Crosby (which you might be, I mean a .84 rookie PPG with Hall and Eberle on the wings and all the PP time in the world makes him a HOF lock), the gap won't be exceptionally big. I think RNH should be somewhere between Tavares' and Giroux' primes in his prime, while Benn will be around what Toews and Kopitar are. While it might conflict with Oiler fans "Gretzky 2.0 but better" assessment I think it's pretty fair.

If I could choose one right now as a 2C for a cup contending team, I'd take Benn without a second thought, even if RNH's offensive abilities develop to the point where they surpass what Benn's overall game brings 2-3 years from now.

Quote:
By sheltered minutes you mean competition tougher than what Benn faced, right? Hopkins faced top 6 competition so you're idea of sheltered is a little off. Two way guys like Ladd, Kesler played very similar minutes in terms of Quality of competition, as did the Sedins, Stamkos-St.Louis, and so on.


And by sheltered minutes you mean being hard matched against the other teams top pairing, right?



He certainly got a nice push in terms of zonestarts at 63% but it's not as unusual for an offensive center as you'd think. The Sedins got something like an 80% ZS and many teams top offensive unit are in the high 50's plus. Hopkins faced tougher competition on the whole than you'd like to insinuate.
No **** he's playing against the top pairing, he's on the Oilers' top line. Is he playing a shutdown role? No. Is he a go to PK player? No. Does he have better linemates than Benn? Yes.

You also forgot to mention that he also put up 44% of his points on the PP even though he has Hall and Eberle at even strength to play with. It seems he might not yet be at a level where he can walk through tougher competition. Which is understandable, he's 18 years old ffs.

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Old
01-13-2013, 06:42 PM
  #85
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Let's see as a 18 year old RNH got 0.83PPG

As a 22 year old Benn had 0.89 PPG

Yeah I think I'll go with the 4 years younger but 0.06PPG less

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01-13-2013, 07:54 PM
  #86
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Although I prefer Benn this is a fair trade.

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01-13-2013, 08:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by jokerboysmith View Post
Although I prefer Benn this is a fair trade.
Well that is your choice, but the consensus us most other prefer RNH and feel this is not a fair trade.

I like Benn a lot and would move Yakupov for him.I mo RNH is the most untouchable player the oiler have and its not even close.

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01-13-2013, 08:54 PM
  #88
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Honestly I think at one point one of Hallsy, Ebs, or RNH will have to go...if they all max out there potential that will be a lot of $$$$ to cough up between 3 players and there will be a odd man out and you can probably add Shultz and Yakupov...this young core will break up In the next 5-7 years IMO atleast.

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01-13-2013, 08:59 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
Honestly I think at one point one of Hallsy, Ebs, or RNH will have to go...if they all max out there potential that will be a lot of $$$$ to cough up between 3 players and there will be a odd man out and you can probably add Shultz and Yakupov...this young core will break up In the next 5-7 years IMO atleast.
Yeah, it's not like Pittsburgh has 2 players at 8.7 million, 3 more at 5 million, and was prepared to offer a 5th 5.5 million per year while still having enough cap room to bump one of their 3.5 million players to 6 million in the near future. How will the Oilers ever survive with 4 6 million forwards and one 5 million defenseman?

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01-13-2013, 09:10 PM
  #90
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No way Edmonton trades their young, 1st line center.

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01-13-2013, 09:11 PM
  #91
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No way Edmonton trades their young, 1st line center.
No way Dallas trades their young, 1st line center.

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01-13-2013, 09:26 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by English stars fan View Post
Here's my view, as a Stars fan:

Benn is the better player now, simply because he's more mature as a player. There have been times already that he's carried the Stars on his back. He plays a great physical all round game, plays the toughest situations and has PPG potential. Maybe he'll hit 90 once or twice in his career. Maybe.

Nuge had a great debut season, no-one can deny that. His offensive instincts are better than Benn's and he'll get better and better as he matures. No doubt he'll score buckets of points as well with that Edmonton top 6. He should, if he reaches his potential, be a regular 90-120 point guy. Maybe he hits Giroux/Stamkos level but it's way too early to tell.

Summary, Nuge has a higher ceiling but is less physically mature. Benn is the better player now (not by much at all though) and in 2 years time there's a 99% chance that Nuge has surpassed Benn (though not in the pugilistic fashion)
I think this is a quality post and assessment. Obviously Benn will always have a major physical edge, as you can't teach size (though I do believe The Nuge gets everything out of his slight frame when engaging opponents).

In terms of defensive play, I think the Nuge may be harder to assess because its his reads that take away lanes/open opponents vs Benn containing and winning physical battles along the boards. One is more noticeable, but both are equally effective.

As for offence, I think the numbers could get a little tilted in the coming years. We had the 3rd best PP last year with The Nuge as an 18yr old and his RHD triggerman the mediocre Corey Potter. A year older and wiser and a phenom like Schultz pulling the trigger and I fully expect to have the number one PP in the league.

Both players are great but get it done in different ways. Both teams are happy with their respective star. Not sure why things need to get to extremes with some posters.

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01-13-2013, 10:10 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by dj33habs View Post
Benn=Iginla
RNH=Ribeiro

Iginla>>Ribeiro
That is a gross generalization as benn is worse then Iginla and RNH is alread y better then Ribeiro..

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01-13-2013, 10:18 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
So you don't have a problem with a 100 point/80 point with better defensive and much better physical game assessment? How is an 80 point excellent defensively and physically center not rare. Are Toews and Kopitar not rare?

A year from now Benn for Giroux may not be considered all that unreasonable. He's ahead of where Giroux was when they were the same age. It's just that Giroux put up a 95 point season on a team where Max Talbot scored 20 goals and the towel boy could probably get 10 and everyone's lost their minds over him.

I'm just saying a bit less homerific perspective may be in order before unloading all over the place over RNH's rookie season playing sheltered minutes with Hall and Eberle.

Tavares, Stamkos and Giroux have proven a good deal more than RNH. For starters, they've had seasons superior to any of Benn's, even when factoring in linemates and all around play.
By that logic, RNH is further along then Benn at this point in RNH's career..

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01-13-2013, 10:21 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by dj33habs View Post
Benn=Iginla
RNH=Ribeiro

Iginla>>Ribeiro
Terrible conparison on RNH. The kid is a 1st overall draft pick that was almost PPG as a 18 year old rookie. Ribeiro never came close to that as a rookie, RNH projects to be a much better player than Ribeiro. And ya, Benn certainly isn't comparable to Iginla either.

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01-13-2013, 10:25 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
I really hope RNH wasn't just compared to Gretzky in anything more than style...
Calm down people. People are allowed to say the name Gretzky without having people jump out of their computer chairs.

Both players were not considered complete players by today's standard, but it doesn't matter when your offense makes up for it. A simple point.

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01-13-2013, 10:25 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by English stars fan View Post
Here's my view, as a Stars fan:

Benn is the better player now, simply because he's more mature as a player. There have been times already that he's carried the Stars on his back. He plays a great physical all round game, plays the toughest situations and has PPG potential. Maybe he'll hit 90 once or twice in his career. Maybe.

Nuge had a great debut season, no-one can deny that. His offensive instincts are better than Benn's and he'll get better and better as he matures. No doubt he'll score buckets of points as well with that Edmonton top 6. He should, if he reaches his potential, be a regular 90-120 point guy. Maybe he hits Giroux/Stamkos level but it's way too early to tell.

Summary, Nuge has a higher ceiling but is less physically mature. Benn is the better player now (not by much at all though) and in 2 years time there's a 99% chance that Nuge has surpassed Benn (though not in the pugilistic fashion)
This.

In regards to trade value, I think RNH is in another league as Benn due to potential offensive numbers. I really don't see a deal being possible around Benn to the Oilers.

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01-13-2013, 10:30 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj33habs View Post
Benn=Iginla
RNH=Ribeiro

Iginla>>Ribeiro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Oh really? I doubt you could find many that have watched Hopkins play that would say Tavares or Giroux are in another class from him. Lets hear your compelling argument...

Benn is an excellent player, and while he is better than Hopkins now, Hopkins is clearly superior in terms of potential. Youre welcome to make a poll about it if you want, but I suspect you'll be disappointed.
This is a joke right? RNH isn't even close to Tavares or Giroux and likely never will be

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01-13-2013, 10:40 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
This is a joke right? RNH isn't even close to Tavares or Giroux and likely never will be
Well let's see as an 18yr RNH had a better rookie season than Tavares and Giroux wasn't even close as an 18yr old to the player he currently is. What makes you think RNH can't reach their level with a few years experience? It's not just Oilers fans pumping this guy up.

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01-13-2013, 10:41 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Rpro View Post
Well let's see as an 18yr RNH he had a better rookie season than Tavares and Giroux wasn't even close as an 18yr old to the player he currently is. What makes you think RNH can't reach their level with a few years experience? It's not just Oilers fans pumping this guy up.
I never said he "Can't" he surely can.. I just said its not "Likely" big difference. Those guys are firmly top 5 players in the world IMO.

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