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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
01-13-2013, 10:49 PM
  #826
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Loser mentality: Wanting the team to fail miserably BEFORE the season starts.
Nobody is suggesting this. If you're going to attack the rebuild position, attack it directly. Don't distort it because you aren't gaining any credibility here.
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Winner mentality: You play to win the game.
And that should be the mentality of the coach and the players. They are the soliders and are focused on the individual battles. They should try to take every hill and win every battle. That's the right mentality.

The GMs though, are the generals. They should concentrate on the war. Sometimes in a war it means sacrificing a hill. It means going back and regrouping with reinforcements. It requires a higher level of thinking and longterm planning. You want people with long term planning in mind. If that means sacrificing a battle so be it... For them its about winning the war (cup.)

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01-13-2013, 10:52 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Sorry, as a GM or coach of this team, TANKING is not and will never be an option. Simple as that. Not before the beginning of the season. That is just wrong. Maybe late in the season because we are out of the playoffs.
Why is it "wrong?"

I mean what the hell is wrong with recognizing that you aren't good enough to win? If there's a market out there for your vets and you can improve your chances at a cup down the road... what the hell is wrong with that? Rebuilding (not Tanking) makes perfect sense.

It's practical dude.

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01-13-2013, 10:52 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Sorry, as a GM or coach of this team, TANKING is not and will never be an option. Simple as that. Not before the beginning of the season. That is just wrong. Maybe late in the season because we are out of the playoffs.
*sigh*

Have a good one man.

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Old
01-13-2013, 10:53 PM
  #829
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In the end, you have to do what is best for the Montreal Canadiens, not only for the short term, but also for the long term.

How hard is it to understand?

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Old
01-13-2013, 10:59 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Sorry, as a GM or coach of this team, TANKING is not and will never be an option. Simple as that. Not before the beginning of the season. That is just wrong. Maybe late in the season because we are out of the playoffs.
You don't have to call it tanking. You can call it "building for the future". You don't tell your coach to lose on purpose. You don't ask Gionta to shoot beside the net....But you play your youth a little bit more. You do trade a few vets for great 1st picks and great prospects. You make room for a Galchenyuk. 2013 will be key in the teams' rebuild for the next 10 years to come. So in exchange for a tough 48-game season....I'll trade you for a real possibility of a 10-year contending team. How's that? Yes, I know...nothing is sure that even with another bad season, we'd win right after. Well, first, if you build through draft, the FACT is that we have a top 5 head scout if not the best. So chances are we will get something significant. Then, you also hope that Bergevin and Co are able to recognize talent and will do appropriate trades. So while everything can always happen....how about trying to improve the odds of it happening?

See, in Hamilton, where the fans still deserve a winning team despite the AHL being a development league, that team was build exactly for that....to develop players for the big league. But when you reach the big league....development isn't over. And as a big time franchise like the Habs, my goal would be to build a serious contender, just like the Wings fans have had for all those years. This is the job of the journalists and of the uninformed fans to be pissed about 1 bad season without knowing what it means. But it's my opinion that by doing so, it might mean that the glory days are really on our doorstep. And I'd chose that path.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 01-13-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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Old
01-13-2013, 11:11 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody is suggesting that we root for the team to lose. Stop being silly.


No we don't. Not all teams are created equally and if you don't understand this it explains why you don't understand what's actually being discussed here.


Yeah, right...


Nobody said they did. We said they should rebuild and deal away vets for prospects. If we sink in the standings... so be it.

The Oilers will probably have a better team than we will... and that could be as soon as this year. That's what happened with other rebuilding clubs that have leapfrogged us over the years including Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago.

Sure. But drafting high consistently usually results in finding a superstar. Superstars lead to cups. Having one doesn't mean you'll win a cup. But if you don't have one, it's next to impossible to win.

Notice that we haven't had a true superstar in the past two decades. Notice also that we haven't drafted high in the past three decades. Notice that we haven't won any cups in two decades and that we've usually been treading water.

I will just say this: I want my team the most game possible and try to make the playoffs because anything can happen after that. We've seen it. A hot goalie+good chemistry on a momentum can win you games, series and cup.

If you think this team sucks this much now, then you don't need to ask them to tank... unless you are scared that they "overachieve" and make the playoffs and go too far for your taste?

Like Price getting Vezina nomination, Cole and Max scoring 30g + again, DD having a 70 pts season, Plekanec getting 65 pts, Gio and Bourque scores 20-25g? Markov plays like himself, PK getting even better, Gorges being Gorges etc?

Seriously, these things are quite "accomplishable" if everybody is healthy and Therrien being able to squeeze the best out of them.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:18 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody is suggesting this. If you're going to attack the rebuild position, attack it directly. Don't distort it because you aren't gaining any credibility here.
Please, don't try to make it look more graceful than it actually is.

What you guys want here is to see the Habs finish as low as possible.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:24 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Please, don't try to make it look more graceful than it actually is.

What you guys want here is to see the Habs finish as low as possible.
Yes, that's exactly what we want. I just couldn't hold it anymore...sorry guys, I couldn't keep our secret vendetta against the habs.

Feels good to be free

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:26 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Please, don't try to make it look more graceful than it actually is.

What you guys want here is to see the Habs finish as low as possible.
Was it a losing mentality to get Galchenyuk? Are you mad, in a way, that we have Galchenyuk? Would you be mad if we got MacKinnon?

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:27 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
I will just say this: I want my team the most game possible and try to make the playoffs because anything can happen after that. We've seen it. A hot goalie+good chemistry on a momentum can win you games, series and cup.
And if you buy a lottery ticket you might win.

But you probably won't.
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
If you think this team sucks this much now, then you don't need to ask them to tank... unless you are scared that they "overachieve" and make the playoffs and go too far for your taste?
The only thing I'm scared of is that we continue to waste assets as we've done for the past decade. Watching guys like Souray, Koivu, Kovalev and a ton of others walk away for no return is the main reason we are where we are. We sacrificed the future in the name of short term gain.

I just don't want to see us continue down this path. Cole, Gionta, Markov... all have value now. We don't need all these guys. Subban has developed without Markov just fine. No reason not to trade these guys (at least some of them.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Like Price getting Vezina nomination, Cole and Max scoring 30g + again, DD having a 70 pts season, Plekanec getting 65 pts, Gio and Bourque scores 20-25g? Markov plays like himself, PK getting even better, Gorges being Gorges etc?
Sure and David Desharnais could turn into Gretzky...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Seriously, these things are quite "accomplishable" if everybody is healthy and Therrien being able to squeeze the best out of them.
You know what else is "accomplishable?" Last season's finish. Which do you think is more likely? Everything stays the same or we turn EVERYTHING around and become a cup contender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Please, don't try to make it look more graceful than it actually is.

What you guys want here is to see the Habs finish as low as possible.
No. We'd like to see some vets get dealt for picks and prospects. If we win games and make the playoffs... great. At least we're rebuilding with extra picks at the same time.

What I don't want to see is more McD for Gomez type fiascos where we're giving away prospects in the name of 8th place.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:32 PM
  #836
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Bruins fan coming in peace. I was curious to see what Habs fans think about this season. I am surprised to find a thread like this. IMO, the Habs should be the second best team in the NE Div. Some solid additions in the off-season along with a talented, young core and very good goaltending.

I think Eller could emerge this year and Galchenyuk (sp?) is going to be a stud. With Markov back (and healthy?), you should make the playoffs. I think the team that will be a bit of a disappointment will be Buffalo. NE:

Boston
Montreal
Ottawa
Buffalo
Toronto

I'm looking forward to Boston-Montreal games.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:41 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And if you buy a lottery ticket you might win.

But you probably won't.

The only thing I'm scared of is that we continue to waste assets as we've done for the past decade. Watching guys like Souray, Koivu, Kovalev and a ton of others walk away for no return is the main reason we are where we are. We sacrificed the future in the name of short term gain.

I just don't want to see us continue down this path. Cole, Gionta, Markov... all have value now. We don't need all these guys. Subban has developed without Markov just fine. No reason not to trade these guys (at least some of them.)

Sure and David Desharnais could turn into Gretzky...

You know what else is "accomplishable?" Last season's finish. Which do you think is more likely? Everything stays the same or we turn EVERYTHING around and become a cup contender?

No. We'd like to see some vets get dealt for picks and prospects. If we win games and make the playoffs... great. At least we're rebuilding with extra picks at the same time.

What I don't want to see is more McD for Gomez type fiascos where we're giving away prospects in the name of 8th place.
Come on, last season Gio and Markov were injured for a good part, two guys that make a lot of differences for this team.

Cole, DD, Max, Plekanec, Subban, Gorges and Price all had a good season.

In a 48 games season, its really hard to predict what will happen. I am really not convinced that we will be in the bottom 5 in the Eastern conference again. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic but I think we can make the playoffs this season.

I'm not 100% against tanking... I just rather give a chance for my team to perform before throwing the towel for the season.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:49 PM
  #838
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While years of high draft pics sound like a great idea I have no interest in watching the years of losing hockey that it takes to get there. I'd be more impressed if management spent some of its massive resources on beefing scouting, coaching, physio, perks, etc which arent restricted by the cap and help attact players and build winners.

Nothing impressive, creative or satisfying by stripping the team of all its talent in the effort to collect a bunch of draft picks in the hope of opening up a 3 year window of ELCs to try and compete before doing it all over again.

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01-13-2013, 11:52 PM
  #839
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As a Habs fan, i know that this team will not win the Stanley Cup this year. So, i hope that the Habs finish as low as possible in order to became a real Stanley Cup contender as soon as possible. I also hope that Bergevin will find a way to trade Kaberle, Bourque, Cole, Gionta and Markov for first, secound and third round draft pick and prospects.

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01-13-2013, 11:56 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
As a Habs fan, i know that this team will not win the Stanley Cup this year. So, i hope that the Habs finish as low as possible in order to became a real Stanley Cup contender as soon as possible. I also hope that Bergevin will find a way to trade Kaberle, Bourque, Cole, Gionta and Markov for first, secound and third round draft pick and prospects.
I like the idea of trading vets for high picks and prospects.

But you have to replace those players, and we have no youngsters ready to replace all of those players. And it's not a good idea to replace a bunch of players by giving out contracts to UFAs like it's hot bread.

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01-13-2013, 11:59 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Come on, last season Gio and Markov were injured for a good part, two guys that make a lot of differences for this team.

Cole, DD, Max, Plekanec, Subban, Gorges and Price all had a good season.

In a 48 games season, its really hard to predict what will happen. I am really not convinced that we will be in the bottom 5 in the Eastern conference again. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic but I think we can make the playoffs this season.

I'm not 100% against tanking... I just rather give a chance for my team to perform before throwing the towel for the season.
I think we'll be improved. I don't expect a repeat of last year either. But I don't think we have any real shot at the cup.

And sure EVERYTHING can go right. That happened five years ago and we played over our heads. But it still didn't lead anywhere and there was no progression the following season. And that's the problem, one step forward, one step back.

That's usually how it goes when you build your team on the fly. When you don't take longterm planning into consideration you aren't going to go anywhere.
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Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
While years of high draft pics sound like a great idea I have no interest in watching the years of losing hockey that it takes to get there. I'd be more impressed if management spent some of its massive resources on beefing scouting, coaching, physio, perks, etc which arent restricted by the cap and help attact players and build winners.
Have you watched the last 20 years? Has it been fun knowing that your club probably wasn't going to win anything? Has it been fun never seeing a Canadien in the top ten in scoring? Watching expansion clubs like Tampa and Carolina win cups with top picks? How much fun was it for you watching teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago start from scratch and pass us to become contenders and eventually champions? Has it been fun not having a superstar on our team?

How fun is that?
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Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
Nothing impressive, creative or satisfying by stripping the team of all its talent in the effort to collect a bunch of draft picks in the hope of opening up a 3 year window of ELCs to try and compete before doing it all over again.
Are you excited about having Galchenyuk? Do you think we'll be better in the future because of him? Will you not cheer for him because we finished bottom 5? Will his presence offend you or will you cheer him like crazy when he goes on to become our best forward?

Don't worry, you don't have to answer. We already know.

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:00 AM
  #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
While years of high draft pics sound like a great idea I have no interest in watching the years of losing hockey that it takes to get there. I'd be more impressed if management spent some of its massive resources on beefing scouting, coaching, physio, perks, etc which arent restricted by the cap and help attact players and build winners.

Nothing impressive, creative or satisfying by stripping the team of all its talent in the effort to collect a bunch of draft picks in the hope of opening up a 3 year window of ELCs to try and compete before doing it all over again.
This should be the last year. We can't afford to or need more then another player or two with top level skills. This is the reality of a $60 million cap world.

We're not a budget team being run on guys with ELC's. We have every intention of keeping our young guys signed to long-term contracts - Price + Patches and Subban when the time is right.

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01-14-2013, 12:07 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
I like the idea of trading vets for high picks and prospects.

But you have to replace those players, and we have no youngsters ready to replace all of those players. And it's not a good idea to replace a bunch of players by giving out contracts to UFAs like it's hot bread.
They all have bad contracts and they are all players past there prime or they will be too old when the habs will be a Stanley Cup contender. I'm pretty sure that Bergevin could easily sign younger players with equal talent for less than these Vet earn this year.

Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Tinordi and Beaulieu will all have a good shot to make the team next year.

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01-14-2013, 12:11 AM
  #844
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Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
While years of high draft pics sound like a great idea I have no interest in watching the years of losing hockey that it takes to get there. I'd be more impressed if management spent some of its massive resources on beefing scouting, coaching, physio, perks, etc which arent restricted by the cap and help attact players and build winners.

Nothing impressive, creative or satisfying by stripping the team of all its talent in the effort to collect a bunch of draft picks in the hope of opening up a 3 year window of ELCs to try and compete before doing it all over again.
But it's not really years of losing. It's literally 48 games. With the right trades we could end up with 6 picks in the top 60, one of those being top 5. In a deep draft!

That means in the past 2 years we'd have done the rebuilding that some teams take 5 years to achieve.

Gally
Colberg
Hudon
Vail
Thrower
Top 5
1st(traded for)
2nd
2nd
2nd
2nd (traded for)

In basically a year and a half's worth of games. No brainer.

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01-14-2013, 12:17 AM
  #845
Krautso
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Have you watched the last 20 years? Has it been fun knowing that your club probably wasn't going to win anything? Has it been fun never seeing a Canadien in the top ten in scoring? Watching expansion clubs like Tampa and Carolina win cups with top picks? Has it been fun not having a superstar on our team?

How fun is that?

Are you excited about having Galchenyuk? Do you think we'll be better in the future because of him? Will you not cheer for him because we finished bottom 5? Will his presence offend you or will you cheer him like crazy when he goes on to become our best forward?

Don't worry, you don't have to answer. We already know.
While every other year there seems to be some version of Tampa, Carolina, Anaheim, Chicago what I'm against is the years of losing and obscurity these fans endure between brief flashes in the show. I could turn around your point and ask if you watched while the habs were in the playoffs or if you turned the tv off in disgust because they were wasting a potential year of draft pic collection.

I am excited about having Galchenyuk he's going to be a hell of a player.

I'm a habs fan and I want them to win and entertain. The "tankers" list their plan as if it is a guaranteed blueprint for success but for every Tampa and Carolina which get their chance in the sun there is Columbus, Florida, hell even Toronto which show losing doesnt always breed winning..it can also breed more losing.

I agree with many of your posts about being pragmatic with our resources, expiring veteran contracts and looking for ways to improve the team long term over short term but that being said I don't think these things are mutually exclusive from building a team that can compete, entertain and win now.

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01-14-2013, 12:19 AM
  #846
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
But it's not really years of losing. It's literally 48 games. With the right trades we could end up with 6 picks in the top 60, one of those being top 5. In a deep draft!

That means in the past 2 years we'd have done the rebuilding that some teams take 5 years to achieve.

Gally
Colberg
Hudon
Vail
Thrower
Top 5
1st(traded for)
2nd
2nd
2nd
2nd (traded for)

In basically a year and a half's worth of games. No brainer.
It would be more than that because we are trading our proven veterans now in order to tank for picks. Who's going to win games for us next year? If we decide to blood all these rookies into the team at the same time we will ensure ourselves high first rounders for years to come...Edmonton's got nothing on us.

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01-14-2013, 12:40 AM
  #847
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While every other year there seems to be some version of Tampa, Carolina, Anaheim, Chicago what I'm against is the years of losing and obscurity these fans endure between brief flashes in the show.
We've had twenty years of losing and obscurity. Have you not noticed?
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I could turn around your point and ask if you watched while the habs were in the playoffs or if you turned the tv off in disgust because they were wasting a potential year of draft pic collection.
I'll watch no matter what. So will you. We just came off our worst season ever and folks are excited about Galchenyuk... nobody is going away and a couple of years in the basement (if it happened) isn't going to change this.
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I am excited about having Galchenyuk he's going to be a hell of a player.
Three or four years from now are you going to remember the losing season we had to get him? Do you think last season will have been worth it if the guy becomes a star or leads us to a cup?

Be honest.
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I'm a habs fan and I want them to win and entertain. The "tankers" list their plan as if it is a guaranteed blueprint for success but for every Tampa and Carolina which get their chance in the sun there is Columbus, Florida, hell even Toronto which show losing doesnt always breed winning..it can also breed more losing.
Losing is not the same thing as rebuilding. The Islanders lost for years and traded away tons of future stars in the name of the quick fix, ditto with Toronto. Over the years those two clubs have dealt away picks and prospects that have turned into superstars...

I'm saying we should do the opposite of those teams and rebuild. And it makes sense to rebuild esp with our fanbase, economics and scouting resources.
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Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
I agree with many of your posts about being pragmatic with our resources, expiring veteran contracts and looking for ways to improve the team long term over short term but that being said I don't think these things are mutually exclusive from building a team that can compete, entertain and win now.
Maybe we will win now. Nobody is suggesting we try to lose.

I'm just saying that we deal away teh vets and try to rebuild. If the club wins... great. But let's not have any more stupid quick fix trades (like picking up Kaberle) to try to get into 8th place. Those moves do nothing to get us a cup and actually put us further away from a championship.

Rebuild, let the chips fall where they may and let the coaches and players play as hard as they can. But make deals that benefit the team long term. That's the key. We haven't done nearly enough of this and it's hurt us.

We've done it once in recent memory and it landed us a pick that turned into Max Paccioretty. All I'm saying is we should try to make more of those kinds of deals.

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01-14-2013, 07:28 AM
  #848
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Like Price getting Vezina nomination, Cole and Max scoring 30g + again, DD having a 70 pts season, Plekanec getting 65 pts, Gio and Bourque scores 20-25g? Markov plays like himself, PK getting even better, Gorges being Gorges etc?
That is extremely unlikely.

You listed 10 different items. Even if each of those items has a 50% chance of going the right way, the odds of all 10 of them going the right way is 2^10:1, or 1 part in 1024.

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01-14-2013, 07:33 AM
  #849
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According to this thread:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3#post57554843

The Habs have the easiest schedule in the NHL next season.

We're also starting with 9 of 11 games at home or something like that.

That is too bad. The results might give Bergevin some false confidence. The team could end up in 9th or 10th with all these advantages, and he'll think it is because of his changes.

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01-14-2013, 07:35 AM
  #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We've had twenty years of losing and obscurity. Have you not noticed?

I'll watch no matter what. So will you. We just came off our worst season ever and folks are excited about Galchenyuk... nobody is going away and a couple of years in the basement (if it happened) isn't going to change this.

Three or four years from now are you going to remember the losing season we had to get him? Do you think last season will have been worth it if the guy becomes a star or leads us to a cup?

Be honest.

Losing is not the same thing as rebuilding. The Islanders lost for years and traded away tons of future stars in the name of the quick fix, ditto with Toronto. Over the years those two clubs have dealt away picks and prospects that have turned into superstars...

I'm saying we should do the opposite of those teams and rebuild. And it makes sense to rebuild esp with our fanbase, economics and scouting resources.

Maybe we will win now. Nobody is suggesting we try to lose.

I'm just saying that we deal away teh vets and try to rebuild.
If the club wins... great. But let's not have any more stupid quick fix trades (like picking up Kaberle) to try to get into 8th place. Those moves do nothing to get us a cup and actually put us further away from a championship.

Rebuild, let the chips fall where they may and let the coaches and players play as hard as they can. But make deals that benefit the team long term. That's the key. We haven't done nearly enough of this and it's hurt us.

We've done it once in recent memory and it landed us a pick that turned into Max Paccioretty. All I'm saying is we should try to make more of those kinds of deals.
Trading away all the talent in an effort to surgically tank is pretty much the definition of trying to lose. I'm all for good asset management but that doesn't mean always sacrificing the present for the future. We can rebuild without intentionally losing...intentionally losing and doing a fire-sale for draft picks just takes alot of the guess work out of it, although it is still no guaranteed plan for winning.

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