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*ALL* Luongo Talk (News/Speculation/Rumors/Proposals)

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Old
01-14-2013, 02:16 AM
  #351
Cogburn
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
Look, the longer a team is a contender, the weaker their prospect pool is going to be. It's the way it works (with Detroit being the exception). Crap teams like mine stockpile young players while cup contenders stockpile veterans.

If the Leafs were a Cup contender (yeah who's kidding who right?) then my expectation is that my GM is not hanging on to 19 year olds who might be a 2nd line Center 5 years from now when my star players are retired. I want my GM to send that kid to a bottom feeder for a early to mid 30's player who might be the missing piece to winning the cup.

That is the point isn't it?

As far as Lu goes, I think the situation around him is really the problem here. I don't need to re-iterate why his return is going to be so low, I am not going to say anything that hasn't already been said. All I will say that it will have nothing to do with his skill, which is fantastic.
What about Pittsburgh? They've been contending as long as we have, actually longer, and their prospect pool seems at least passable, even with out bombing since Crosby and Malkin were drafted. On the other side, what about Columbus? Their prospects aren't spectacular for a team that's been so low for so long, or Winnipeg as well. I don't mean to say they are "poor", but outside of a few key players, it's not spectacular on either front either.

At the same time, Gillis throws around the words "perennial" and "contender" around a lot. With the exception of Hodgson, who apparently had some ill feelings on either side here, we are getting decent players at the top end of our prospect pool that are expected to contribute eventually, say in the few years our stars and core start to cool off. We've seen the "trade our youth for rentals" thing with Burke, it doesn't end well. This is why I think Leafs and Canucks fans need to hope their teams find other teams to deal with, we're not a good match at all.

His contract is a negative, but you can't honestly expect a perfect fit, can you? There isn't a 25 year old (ish) player that has already been a starter with the same kind of career numbers Luongo has that is being shopped. That simply doesn't happen. Luongo is available now, and the reason we're at each others throats is we can't decide how much of a negative his contract is.

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01-14-2013, 02:18 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
LOL, Luongo, Kesler, Schneider, Sedin, Sedin, Bieksa, Burrows, Edler, etc. Guess who brought Vancouver's core in.

Anselmi said the plan is to continue building. The reason they kept the staff was because they liked the direction the Leafs are heading.



Not sure what the point is about bringing those players in? Nonis still got booted with those players here correct?


Continue ___building___, not tanking. Reason for termination: Win/Loss Record. They kept the staff and fired Burke as well. If Anselmi was willing to give Nonis a free pass, as you state it, why cite a win/loss record as grounds to fire Burke?

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01-14-2013, 02:20 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
LOL, Luongo, Kesler, Schneider, Sedin, Sedin, Bieksa, Burrows, Edler, etc. Guess who brought Vancouver's core in.

Anselmi said the plan is to continue building. The reason they kept the staff was because they liked the direction the Leafs are heading.
And yet Burke left a team that had to let several higher profile players walk when it came down to it, and Nonis got into the playoffs once in three years, entirely on the back of the player who's value we're allegedly discussing.

Gillis has said we're not moving Luongo unless it benefits the team, today actually, and that's given a rough ride as him posturing. You can see why we have a hard time believing other fans believe sound bytes from owners/management when ours get shot down as being deceitful, right? All but the most jaded fan believes their team.

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01-14-2013, 02:22 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not sure what the point is about bringing those players in? Nonis still got booted with those players here correct?


Continue ___building___, not tanking. Reason for termination: Win/Loss Record. They kept the staff and fired Burke as well. If Anselmi was willing to give Nonis a free pass, as you state it, why cite a win/loss record as grounds to fire Burke?
It was part of the reason obviously, but not the entire reason he was fired. Burke was fired after 4 seasons of missing the playoffs meaning he had 3 seasons to miss without being fired.

When Nonis reaches his 3rd/4th season of missing the playoffs then we'll say he's desperate. But for a GM who had no final say in any personnel moves for this rosters, He hasn't even started his work in Toronto.

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01-14-2013, 02:23 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
And yet Burke left a team that had to let several higher profile players walk when it came down to it, and Nonis got into the playoffs once in three years, entirely on the back of the player who's value we're allegedly discussing.

Gillis has said we're not moving Luongo unless it benefits the team, today actually, and that's given a rough ride as him posturing. You can see why we have a hard time believing other fans believe sound bytes from owners/management when ours get shot down as being deceitful, right? All but the most jaded fan believes their team.

Yeah because they were still young and developing. They hadn't hit their peak as a team yet. Burke/Nonis get credit for building that team up, not Gillis' depth moves.

Maybe if the owners kept those two around longer, they would have finished the job Gillis' can't. Burke proved he could take a good team and put them over the top in Anaheim.


Last edited by A1LeafNation: 01-14-2013 at 02:32 AM.
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01-14-2013, 02:24 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
You are correct in all of the above examples. So Gillis can sit Luongo indefinitely and not have any negative consequences to himself huh? Not sure that'll fly with ownership.

It's advantageous for both sides to make a trade work. Gillis needs Luongo gone and Luongo needs to play. If Luongo just sits and waits out Gillis, it's going to be bad for him too. That's all I am suggesting.
actually ya. It's nice that Ownership has put their entire trust into Gillis. Don't have to worry about them getting in the way of the best possible outcome for the team

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01-14-2013, 02:24 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
What about Pittsburgh? They've been contending as long as we have, actually longer, and their prospect pool seems at least passable, even with out bombing since Crosby and Malkin were drafted. On the other side, what about Columbus? Their prospects aren't spectacular for a team that's been so low for so long, or Winnipeg as well. I don't mean to say they are "poor", but outside of a few key players, it's not spectacular on either front either.

At the same time, Gillis throws around the words "perennial" and "contender" around a lot. With the exception of Hodgson, who apparently had some ill feelings on either side here, we are getting decent players at the top end of our prospect pool that are expected to contribute eventually, say in the few years our stars and core start to cool off. We've seen the "trade our youth for rentals" thing with Burke, it doesn't end well. This is why I think Leafs and Canucks fans need to hope their teams find other teams to deal with, we're not a good match at all.

His contract is a negative, but you can't honestly expect a perfect fit, can you? There isn't a 25 year old (ish) player that has already been a starter with the same kind of career numbers Luongo has that is being shopped. That simply doesn't happen. Luongo is available now, and the reason we're at each others throats is we can't decide how much of a negative his contract is.
I should have used the term "generally" because I am generalizing, obviously it's possible to maintain a strong prospect pool and remain competitive but it's awfully difficult to do so. It would mean that you really don't go after rentals much and can draft well year in and year out late in the draft (because you never get top picks, ever).

I don't like talking about Pittsburgh in this light though. They tanked at the best possible time and nailed two of the best players in the game. The oilers just got 3 #1 picks and they'll never even get a whiff to what Pittsburgh got in Malkin and Crosby. They are going to be solid for a very very long time and hit the jackpot. Not saying they didn't earn their success, but it's just not a recipe you can repeat when the secret ingredients are ridiculously rare.

You are right though, this is the core of teh debate. "How much has Luongo's contract devalued his worth as a player" hopefully we find out soon.

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Old
01-14-2013, 02:32 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
I didn't say it always worked did I?

Let's not get into who's pool is better, that's just not productive to this discussion in any way whatsoever. You remember you asked me earlier about that homerism stuff? Head's up.


There is no homerism. Just facts.

You said that bad teams stockpile younger player which is not true.

Nor do those teams necessarily have better younger prospect pools than contenders as I was pointing out.

Leafs miss the playoffs. Prospect pool is mediocre.

Canucks make the playoffs. Prospect pool is mediocre.

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01-14-2013, 02:34 AM
  #359
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Traditionally, you would be right. However, Gillis has been very vocal in following the DET model. Which means, doing a slow development on his prospects so as to _extend_ his team's competitive window.
Sheesh..

Get with the program. Detroit model is out, Edmonton model is in.

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01-14-2013, 02:34 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Yeah because they were still young and developing. They hadn't hit their peak as a team yet. Burke/Nonis get credit for building that team up, not Gillis' depth moves.

Maybe if the owners kept those two around longer, they would have finished the job Gillis' can't. They proved they could take a good team and put them over the top in Anaheim.
I know we're not exactly seeing eye to eye anyway, but we're talking about Burke, who yes, drafted Kesler and the Sedins, but also nixed Gretzky, traded Bure and due to trading for rentals or overpaying for other players and poor drafting, kept our team from moving forward with any internal development. I remember Jason King and Brandon Reid being our best young players for awhile.

Nonis was better, and I sincerely hope he's better there, at building youth up here wasn't a strong point, it was either hit or miss. Bourdon and Grabner or White, that kind of extreme, and 2nd and third round picks were generally shifted out too.

Burke proved he could take existing assets, sign a "gimmie" free agent, and inherit a cup. What has happened after he decided to move to Toronto? The team imploded. Prongers gone, Beauch was gone, Niedermayer retired and nearly any semblance of the team that won it all is gone just to break even. I'm not saying anything they would have won anyway, but if it wasn't won that year, Anaheim would have likely ended up like the Canucks, immediately post lockout.

Nonis was kept to try to clean up Burkes' mess, and for the first time since before Burke, we have some kind of a future developping. Saying Gillis "can't" get it done is simply insulting at this point though, because he's taken us farther then we'd been in 17 years. Burke has....made another mess for Nonis to clean up. As I said, I sincerely, honestly, hope Nonis is at least as good as he was here.

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01-14-2013, 02:39 AM
  #361
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I know we're not exactly seeing eye to eye anyway, but we're talking about Burke, who yes, drafted Kesler and the Sedins, but also nixed Gretzky, traded Bure and due to trading for rentals or overpaying for other players and poor drafting, kept our team from moving forward with any internal development. I remember Jason King and Brandon Reid being our best young players for awhile.

Nonis was better, and I sincerely hope he's better there, at building youth up here wasn't a strong point, it was either hit or miss. Bourdon and Grabner or White, that kind of extreme, and 2nd and third round picks were generally shifted out too.

Burke proved he could take existing assets, sign a "gimmie" free agent, and inherit a cup. What has happened after he decided to move to Toronto? The team imploded. Prongers gone, Beauch was gone, Niedermayer retired and nearly any semblance of the team that won it all is gone just to break even. I'm not saying anything they would have won anyway, but if it wasn't won that year, Anaheim would have likely ended up like the Canucks, immediately post lockout.

Nonis was kept to try to clean up Burkes' mess, and for the first time since before Burke, we have some kind of a future developping. Saying Gillis "can't" get it done is simply insulting at this point though, because he's taken us farther then we'd been in 17 years. Burke has....made another mess for Nonis to clean up. As I said, I sincerely, honestly, hope Nonis is at least as good as he was here.
There is no mess in Toronto, we have a ton of cap space this summer and a lot of building blocks. The future in Toronto is pretty bright, we are just waiting on the kids to develop(it'll take a few years). And we will credit Burke/Nonis for that in Toronto, not the current GM who took over the "mess".

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01-14-2013, 02:41 AM
  #362
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It was part of the reason obviously, but not the entire reason he was fired. Burke was fired after 4 seasons of missing the playoffs meaning he had 3 seasons to miss without being fired.

When Nonis reaches his 3rd/4th season of missing the playoffs then we'll say he's desperate. But for a GM who had no final say in any personnel moves for this rosters, He hasn't even started his work in Toronto.


So the 3 seasons of missed playoffs contributed nothing to Burke's firing? Is that what you are implying? It all adds up to get him fired. It goes on his record. 4 seasons of losing and losing big.



Nonis has a free pass for 3/4 seasons? No way. The mandate was to _continue_building_ from this point on. When Burke took over, the franchise was at rock bottom. It was primed for a rebuild, but he decided instead to retool, and is now unemployed. Nonis can't go that route. The Leafs' best assets are on their roster (minus Reilly of course), so they can't rebuild like Burke was allowed to do. Nonis is under a completely different set of circumstances, so these two situations are not the same. Anselmi all but confirmed it in his interview with McCowan.



That same GM worked for 4 years under the one that got fired. Do you think he had nothing to do with it? Like he had no input? He was the assistant GM of a failing franchise and he bears a responsibility for that as well. This is not like finding a completely new GM outside the organization and giving him a mandate to rebuild from the ground up. The mandate is continue building with a "GM" that's been in the mix for 4 years there.

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01-14-2013, 02:41 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by BayStBullies View Post
I'll take the aging team that has their window to win a cup dwindling; to appease a franchise that has never won a cup; as being more desperate than a team looking to rebuild with youth, not giving a **** if they finish in a lottery spot.


Your post is contradicted by how the Leafs rebuilt. I would agree with it if BB had held onto those draft picks and had Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton in your prospect pool, but that is not the case. The Leafs have tried to avoid rebuilding via the draft, so your post goes against your team's philosophy - unless you believe the Phil Kessel trade was a mistake?

And yeah, the Canucks are aging so badly. Aside from the Sedins (aged 32), have you bothered looking at the ages of our core? Either you haven't (my guess), or you are terrible at math and fumbled with the numbers. Our window is looking pretty decent, with the majority of our core being in the mid-late 20s (Kesler, Edler, Garrison, Hansen, etc.) - early 30s (Bieksa, Hamhuis, Higgins, Sedins, etc.).

And throw in a at the end of your post to negate the trollness of it, better luck next year. Funny you mention the cup too, it's been longer for the Leafs winning the cup than the Canucks have existed as a franchise, are you trying to own yourself?

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01-14-2013, 02:44 AM
  #364
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I should have used the term "generally" because I am generalizing, obviously it's possible to maintain a strong prospect pool and remain competitive but it's awfully difficult to do so. It would mean that you really don't go after rentals much and can draft well year in and year out late in the draft (because you never get top picks, ever).

I don't like talking about Pittsburgh in this light though. They tanked at the best possible time and nailed two of the best players in the game. The oilers just got 3 #1 picks and they'll never even get a whiff to what Pittsburgh got in Malkin and Crosby. They are going to be solid for a very very long time and hit the jackpot. Not saying they didn't earn their success, but it's just not a recipe you can repeat when the secret ingredients are ridiculously rare.

You are right though, this is the core of teh debate. "How much has Luongo's contract devalued his worth as a player" hopefully we find out soon.
Sorry, yeah, figured it was in generalities, there is a lot of grey area. So far, I'd give Gillis credit for doing that though. Pahlsson (due to unforeseen events) and Gragnani are the only "rentals" we've had, and Hodgson, Schroeder, Gaunce and Jensen in 4 out of 5 first rounds isn't bad. With a little luck with all of them dropping a little bit from their projections. Development trumps drafting in my humble opinion, which is why the Pittsburghs and the Detroits of the league can stay on top.

Again, a lot of luck, I concede, but since then...they've been pretty steady in terms of drafting and development. Stinking out loud, as one of my other favourite teams, they did earn it, but once again, good management, good drafting and understanding ownership make differences too. Luck helps, but I think one of the two would still have them contending now, just maybe not as early.

I maintain, as I'm sure you gather, that his contract isn't a death sentence. There are even small positives, like the Canucks getting nailed with the majority of the savings that will be charged back. You're more of the frame of mind that it marginalizes his positives. Let's hear it though, I've had some proposals absolutely dumped on, but as a midway point (I can't in all honesty say "halfway" given the history here) between the two fanbases, what could the Leafs offer? I maintain we're poorly matched partners, but we could try to get back on the rails here I guess.

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01-14-2013, 02:44 AM
  #365
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Toronto is in no position to deal for Luongo, the more I think about it. They just have nothing to offer. Their prospects aren't better than ours, their available players are redundant to us. Florida could give us equal value to what the Leafs are offering, and we could make our best goalie in franchise history happy by doing so. There is no incentive to give him to Toronto at all. We'll see if someone else has goalie issues this season, and if they enter the Luongo sweepstakes. meanwhile, we'll just roll with what we got.

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01-14-2013, 02:47 AM
  #366
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Your post is contradicted by how the Leafs rebuilt. I would agree with it if BB had held onto those draft picks and had Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton in your prospect pool, but that is not the case. The Leafs have tried to avoid rebuilding via the draft, so your post goes against your team's philosophy - unless you believe the Phil Kessel trade was a mistake?

And yeah, the Canucks are aging so badly. Aside from the Sedins (aged 32), have you bothered looking at the ages of our core? Either you haven't (my guess), or you are terrible at math and fumbled with the numbers. Our window is looking pretty decent, with the majority of our core being in the mid-late 20s (Kesler, Edler, Garrison, Hansen, etc.) - early 30s (Bieksa, Hamhuis, Higgins, Sedins, etc.).

And throw in a at the end of your post to negate the trollness of it, better luck next year. Funny you mention the cup too, it's been longer for the Leafs winning the cup than the Canucks have existed as a franchise, are you trying to own yourself?
Drafted: Reilly, Kadri, Finn, Percy, Biggs, Blacker, D'Amigo, Ross, McKegg. Brought in: Ashton, Colborne, Gardiner, Franson, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Phaneuf Scrivens. Developing: Gunnarsson, Frattin, Kulemin, Reimer

Leafs have definitely been drafting, bringing in, and developing young players the last 3-4 seasons.

Don't know what you're talking about.

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01-14-2013, 02:48 AM
  #367
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Toronto is in no position to deal for Luongo, the more I think about it. They just have nothing to offer. Their prospects aren't better than ours, their available players are redundant to us. Florida could give us equal value to what the Leafs are offering, and we could make our best goalie in franchise history happy by doing so. There is no incentive to give him to Toronto at all. We'll see if someone else has goalie issues this season, and if they enter the Luongo sweepstakes. meanwhile, we'll just roll with what we got.

Yeah, Toronto really needs to add a 1st or Gardiner to really justify a trade for Luongo, otherwise it's just filler and probably meaningless assets that would not contribute to our current roster. I mean, if fans are rejecting the thought of offering Kulemin - a 2nd/3rd line tweener on a lottery team - then we aren't good trading partners.

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01-14-2013, 02:50 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Drafted Reilly, Kadri, Finn, Percy, Biggs, Blacker, D'Amigo. Brought in Ashton, Colborne, Gardiner, Franson, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Phaneuf. Developing: Gunnarsson, Frattin, Kulemin, Reimer

Leafs have definitely been drafting, bringing in, and developing young players the last 3-4 seasons.

Don't know what you're talking about.

Every team drafts, that is an obvious and apparent part of pretty much any sports league.
BB tried to avoid the conventional team rebuild by acquiring immediate help (Kessel) at the expense of developing youth (draft picks). Most the players you mentioned were drafted after BB's initial strategy backfired. I hope you understand now.

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01-14-2013, 02:50 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Drafted Reilly, Kadri, Finn, Percy, Biggs, Blacker, D'Amigo, Ross, McKegg. Brought in Ashton, Colborne, Gardiner, Franson, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Phaneuf. Developing: Gunnarsson, Frattin, Kulemin, Reimer

Leafs have definitely been drafting, bringing in, and developing young players the last 3-4 seasons.

Don't know what you're talking about.
Add in one of MacKinnon or Jones or Drouin if we crap the bed. The one position I don't want to be in is finishing 9th or 10th. I hope we can squeak into the playoffs, or get a lottery pick. We have definitely been drafting and developing young players and that will continue with Nonis.

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01-14-2013, 02:54 AM
  #370
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There is no mess in Toronto, we have a ton of cap space this summer and a lot of building blocks. The future in Toronto is pretty bright, we are just waiting on the kids to develop(it'll take a few years). And we will credit Burke/Nonis for that in Toronto, not the current GM who took over the "mess".
After tanking for 4 seasons, the team is no where near where a well managed team would be. Showing almost no progression in that time, and actual regression looking at the stats, isn't a positive either. Keeping the same two hole open that must have haunted him here in Vancouver (a number one center and a goalie that can actually steal a win once in a while). Maybe mess isn't the right word, but these sorts of things are familiar calling cards, and again, absolutely sincerely when I say the following, I hope it turns out better then the Burke and Nonis show did here.

No, Burke especially, deserves no credit for this team. 0. He cost us more future talent then I can quantify. His tiff with Umberger and his contract means he would have let Kesler walk when Philadelphia offer sheeted him, and Penner in Anaheim kinda cements that. Kesler (if he did make it through the offer sheet as a Canuck), Edler and Schneider for Richards would be right up his alley as well. Bertuzzi for Luongo wouldn't have gone down. Nonis did that. If you want to give Nonis some credit for some of our guys, yes, sure, I can accept that, but he was still a poor judge of talent for a lot of his time here.

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01-14-2013, 02:57 AM
  #371
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Every team drafts, that is an obvious and apparent part of pretty much any sports league.
BB tried to avoid the conventional team rebuild by acquiring immediate help (Kessel) at the expense of developing youth (draft picks). Most the players you mentioned were drafted after BB's initial strategy backfired. I hope you understand now.
Not really, Kadri and Blacker were part of the 2009 draft. Burke's first draft.

Burke's been doing this strategy all the time. Add youth whenever possible.

Even if he screwed up the Kessel deal, we still got a ppg player and a 30-40 goal scorer out of it. He more than made up for the deal with the Gardiner and Phaneuf trade.

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01-14-2013, 03:00 AM
  #372
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Add in one of MacKinnon or Jones or Drouin if we crap the bed. The one position I don't want to be in is finishing 9th or 10th. I hope we can squeak into the playoffs, or get a lottery pick. We have definitely been drafting
and developing young players and that will continue with Nonis.



This VAN fan was never more bothered with Nonis than at the draft. I _hated_ Nonis' drafting. And if it weren't for a stellar 2004 draft, where I'm not sure you could give Nonis much credit because we was newly hired, his record would have been abysmal here. To me, passing on Kopitar for Bourdon (RIP) and Perron for White were two of his biggest gaffs.



I didn't trust his draft ability after that Perron draft. So yes, I would be hoping for the lottery pick as well. At least that way, the options to go off the board are limited, and Nonis can be saved from himself.

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01-14-2013, 03:01 AM
  #373
Lonny Bohonos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Drafted: Reilly, Kadri, Finn, Percy, Biggs, Blacker, D'Amigo, Ross, McKegg. Brought in: Ashton, Colborne, Gardiner, Franson, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Phaneuf Scrivens. Developing: Gunnarsson, Frattin, Kulemin, Reimer

Leafs have definitely been drafting, bringing in, and developing young players the last 3-4 seasons.

Don't know what you're talking about.
Which is what "every" team has been doing. Leafs just have a lot less to show for it considering their place in the standings.

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Old
01-14-2013, 03:04 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
This VAN fan was never more bothered with Nonis than at the draft. I _hated_ Nonis' drafting. And if it weren't for a stellar 2004 draft, where I'm not sure you could give Nonis much credit because we was newly hired, his record would have been abysmal here. To me, passing on Kopitar for Bourdon (RIP) and Perron for White were two of his biggest gaffs.



I didn't trust his draft ability after that Perron draft. So yes, I would be hoping for the lottery pick as well. At least that way, the options to go off the board are limited, and Nonis can be saved from himself.
Good thing we have a different scouting staff now than the one in Vancouver back then. GMs don't make the call on drafting Director of Scouting does.

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01-14-2013, 03:07 AM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Drafted: Reilly, Kadri, Finn, Percy, Biggs, Blacker, D'Amigo, Ross, McKegg. Brought in: Ashton, Colborne, Gardiner, Franson, Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Phaneuf Scrivens. Developing: Gunnarsson, Frattin, Kulemin, Reimer

Leafs have definitely been drafting, bringing in, and developing young players the last 3-4 seasons.

Don't know what you're talking about.
Out of those 22 players, how many will be in Toronto in 3-5 years...maybe 6 or 7. At least a third of the draft picks will never play in the NHL. Some of the UFA players will leave. Some players will also be traded. Burke and Nonis don't exactly have a reputation of being good at drafting and developing players. Out of all those players listed, you have very poor future option at center and a weak goaltending pool.

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