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Sullivan: Grigorenko deserves to go pro

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Old
01-14-2013, 04:26 AM
  #26
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Agree in part that Grigorenko may very well be ready and could get a shot to start the season. Disagree with the content about Hecht's signing/use. They are not mutually exclusive.

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01-14-2013, 06:07 AM
  #27
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If he stays up all I ask of Ruff is to just let him play.

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01-14-2013, 07:05 AM
  #28
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Sully catering to the lowest common denominator. Nothing to see here. Move along.

If they send Grigorenko back, it's because Ruff/Regier can't spot talent and rely on the same old players. If he doesn't earn his roster spot and they keep him up, in three months it'll be another example of entitlement, lack of accountability, Ruff failing to develop elite young talent, and Regier mismanaging assets by burning a year of Grigorenko's ELC.

Lather, rinse, repeat. I hate being so cynical, but TBN's body of work dictates that one of those will be the narrative if things don't work out perfectly. And if they keep him and it works out, the narrative will be that Grigorenko gave them no choice to screw up. This coach and GM deserve criticism, but that rag rarely, if ever, pinpoints the actual reasons to criticize them.


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01-14-2013, 07:11 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Sully catering to the lowest common denominator. Nothing to see here. Move along.

If they send Grigorenko back, it's because Ruff/Regier can't spot talent and rely on the same old players. If he doesn't earn his roster spot and they keep him up, in three months it'll be another example of entitlement, lack of accountability, and Regier mismanaging assets by burning a year of Grigorenko's ELC.

Lather, rinse, repeat. I hate being so cynical, but TBN's body of work dictates that one of those will be the narrative if things don't work out perfectly. And if they keep him and it works out, the narrative will be that Grigorenko gave them no choice to screw up. This coach and GM deserve criticism, but that rag rarely, if ever, pinpoints the actual reasons to criticize them.
It's his MO -- as he has said to me "he builds 'em up, then tears 'em down". Such is the life of a columnist in the modern age.

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01-14-2013, 07:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I know it's poetic hyperbole, but I can't help but be excited reading praise like this.
Sullivan is making an assessment after watching him for half an hour in practice yesterday. He probably hasn't watched one game Grigorenko has played this year.

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01-14-2013, 07:13 AM
  #31
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Since Sully thinks we should keep him up, Ill go ahead and say send him to juniors for the year.

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01-14-2013, 07:19 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
The point about Hecht is a lot of BS criticism of the organization. They signed Hecht because it's irresponsible to go into a season with their center position looking like it did. Hecht in no way prevents Grigorenko from playing and the Sabres wouldn't play Grigorenko just because they 'had' to. He will stay if he impresses and he's getting the same opportunity to impress as he would otherwise, as it looks like he's beginning camp between Leino and Ott. Hecht and Grigorenko can both play wing as well, so there's no shortage of place to play these guys depending on how well they are able to perform.

Further, I don't get the impression that he's seen mcuh of Grigorenko himself or knows much about him -- or indeed really knows what he's talking about here.

As to the issue itself, I think one thing in favor of keeping Grigs is that he already played a lot of his Q season, so even if he ends up playing some games here on the 4th line or scratched (vs other games on the 3rd line and all games he's in on the PP), he wouldn't be missing much development time overall while he'd get the benefit of learning from the pros. That gives the Sabres flexibility as they shouldn't worry about scratching him or playing him on the 4th if he has some week-to-week struggles. He's already played a bit more than half of the Q reg season games he did last season and got another WJC in to boot.

I'm rooting for him to make it, which is different than saying he should make it. I want the Sabres to keep him up if he's good enough and I very much want him to be good enough, but if he isn't then he isn't. Sullivan's take, as expected, does nothing other than dumb down the conversation and refocus the standard vitriol against Ruff/front office before they've even made their decision. In other words, he's already indicated what his article 6 games into the season will be and it won't factor in how well Grigorenko actually played.
Spot on.

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01-14-2013, 07:55 AM
  #33
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I'm still waiting to see... the 5 games will really mean something.

Fingers crossed... I want him to make it

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01-14-2013, 08:03 AM
  #34
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Sully is just setting up his future narratives.

Grigs performs and sticks : It was so obvious he was good that there's no way even R&R could have messed it up.

Grigs performs and goes back : Standard R&R are morons column.

Grigs doesn't perform and goes back : R&R are stifling another elite talent, and have no clue.

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01-14-2013, 08:23 AM
  #35
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If sully is going to be on today, I almost want to call into WGR and ask him how many Quebec Ramparts games he's seen.

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01-14-2013, 08:28 AM
  #36
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Leaf fan here.

My opinion on most prospects is that it can't hurt them to spend an extra year in junior, but it can hurt them to rush them.

Buffalo obviously isn't going to contend for the SC this year, it's kind of a transition season. I don't see why he should be rushed up. He's having a pretty dominant season right now, I think it'd be good for him to continue to do so and (hopefully) dominate the playoffs. NHL training camp can provide good exposure, and being "cut" from the team can also light a fire under him going into next year.

They can also point out specific parts of his game that they want him to work on, which is much easier to do and adjust at the junior level than in your rookie season as a 18 year old.

Grigorenko might end up being a ridiculous steal. Hodgson+Grig+Girgensons+Ott looks like it could be pretty solid longterm, definitely not happy to see it in the division

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01-14-2013, 08:31 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sba View Post
I couldn't have written a better article, it portrays exactly what's going to happen, and why Ruff needs to go.



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Why do any research on the player or circumstance when you can throw out an old reliable Lindy basher? Good on Sully. He knows his market.

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01-14-2013, 08:32 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
If sully is going to be on today, I almost want to call into WGR and ask him how many Quebec Ramparts games he's seen.
0. Guananteed.

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01-14-2013, 08:34 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Leaf fan here.

My opinion on most prospects is that it can't hurt them to spend an extra year in junior, but it can hurt them to rush them.

Buffalo obviously isn't going to contend for the SC this year, it's kind of a transition season. I don't see why he should be rushed up. He's having a pretty dominant season right now, I think it'd be good for him to continue to do so and (hopefully) dominate the playoffs. NHL training camp can provide good exposure, and being "cut" from the team can also light a fire under him going into next year.

They can also point out specific parts of his game that they want him to work on, which is much easier to do and adjust at the junior level than in your rookie season as a 18 year old.

Grigorenko might end up being a ridiculous steal. Hodgson+Grig+Girgensons+Ott looks like it could be pretty solid longterm, definitely not happy to see it in the division
There's two sides of that argument, though. On the one hand, there's "Why burn a year of his ELC when the team won't be contending?", which is essentially your position. On the other hand, I think the argument could be made that now is precisely the time to break him in and get him used to the NHL, that way he'll have already experienced some of the growing pains when next season starts.

The way I see it is that the growing pains are inevitable, regardless of when he gets his first experience. Most Sabres fans don't have high expectations for the season--best case, IMO, is they finish 6th-8th and they play a tight 1st round series, thereby allowing some of the young guys to get more playoff experience--so why not get him some experience now. And "burning" a year of the ELC isn't as big of a deal now that Pegula is around and Buffalo has the wherewithal to re-sign its own stars.

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01-14-2013, 08:35 AM
  #40
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Every logical thought about Grigorenko has been made here already, but I want to know (seriously) what the best thing real fans can do to stick it to Bucky and Sully for their incessantly ignorant columns.

Can somebody start a blog or fan board that simply picks apart their drivel enough to gain widespread popularity? Is there a way to shift focus away from them and toward the team (or thoughtful discussion about the team) in the process, without giving them extra attention that they probably want anyway (even if it's negative)?

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01-14-2013, 08:37 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
Every logical thought about Grigorenko has been made here already, but I want to know (seriously) what the best thing real fans can do to stick it to Bucky and Sully for their incessantly ignorant columns.

Can somebody start a blog or fan board that simply picks apart their drivel enough to gain widespread popularity? Is there a way to shift focus away from them and toward the team (or thoughtful discussion about the team) in the process, without giving them extra attention that they probably want anyway (even if it's negative)?
Not really worth the time and effort.

They are dinosaurs in a dying industry. The segment of the fan population that gets their sports opinion from newspaper columnists is rapidly decreasing. They speak to fewer people each day.

It will work itself out.

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01-14-2013, 08:42 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
There's two sides of that argument, though. On the one hand, there's "Why burn a year of his ELC when the team won't be contending?", which is essentially your position. On the other hand, I think the argument could be made that now is precisely the time to break him in and get him used to the NHL, that way he'll have already experienced some of the growing pains when next season starts.

The way I see it is that the growing pains are inevitable, regardless of when he gets his first experience. Most Sabres fans don't have high expectations for the season--best case, IMO, is they finish 6th-8th and they play a tight 1st round series, thereby allowing some of the young guys to get more playoff experience--so why not get him some experience now. And "burning" a year of the ELC isn't as big of a deal now that Pegula is around and Buffalo has the wherewithal to re-sign its own stars.
Well there's the idea of not burning a year of the ELC as well as not rushing him and having the high expectations hurt his development, or the switch to the higher level make it difficult for him to work on the weaker parts of his game.

Not to mention Buffalo won't be SC Contenders next year either, so next year could just as easily be his "growing pains" season.

Next September he'll just have that much more experience, should have added on some muscle, etc.

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01-14-2013, 08:55 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Leaf fan here.

My opinion on most prospects is that it can't hurt them to spend an extra year in junior, but it can hurt them to rush them.

Buffalo obviously isn't going to contend for the SC this year, it's kind of a transition season. I don't see why he should be rushed up. He's having a pretty dominant season right now, I think it'd be good for him to continue to do so and (hopefully) dominate the playoffs. NHL training camp can provide good exposure, and being "cut" from the team can also light a fire under him going into next year.

They can also point out specific parts of his game that they want him to work on, which is much easier to do and adjust at the junior level than in your rookie season as a 18 year old.

Grigorenko might end up being a ridiculous steal. Hodgson+Grig+Girgensons+Ott looks like it could be pretty solid longterm, definitely not happy to see it in the division
A couple thoughts as I appreciate the input but don't really agree with your premise. For one, I think teams in transition are actually typically more likely to rush players than a team in contention, though that's not to say whether or not it is wise.

Regarding the Sabres, like most of the league they are not one of the 4 or 5 teams that can legitimately say they're in the hunt for a Cup. Of course, any team that makes the playoffs has a decent enough shot, but they shouldn't be viewed as contenders. That's how it is for most teams, yet it's a poor excuse to not field the best team they can. Making the playoffs and advancing a round would do this franchise a world of good. We can debate the wisdom of that vs gaining a lottery pick, but I've never been a fan of wanting my team to not try to succeed.

The truth here is, if you look at our lines in camp, Grigorenko could be the wildcard between a team that finishes a few games out of the playoffs or a team that can win a playoff series. With Grigorenko here and the roster healthy, there are four solid lines. To me that is something worth 'rushing' him for if he can handle it.

Neither my post nor yours have addressed whether or not he is actually ready to handle protected 3rd line minutes with decent NHL linemates. That's really what should matter here. I have no idea whether he is or not, but I suspect the chances are reasonable that he is.

Edit: One more thing that I always like to note for players in Grigs situation this year is that they've already played half of a juniors season and a WJC. Even if they get this half an NHL season of stifled minutes, in total they're not missing out on many "top dog" developmental minutes while they are gaining pro experience and exposure. So long as the player is protected in the line-up, I really don't think there's much risk for most guys if their bodies are ready and their games are at a high enough level. As our lines are currently constructed in camp, Leino-Grigorenko-Ott would not be tasked with key defensive or offensive responsibilities and would receive favorable match-ups.

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01-14-2013, 08:57 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
Every logical thought about Grigorenko has been made here already, but I want to know (seriously) what the best thing real fans can do to stick it to Bucky and Sully for their incessantly ignorant columns.

Can somebody start a blog or fan board that simply picks apart their drivel enough to gain widespread popularity? Is there a way to shift focus away from them and toward the team (or thoughtful discussion about the team) in the process, without giving them extra attention that they probably want anyway (even if it's negative)?
I was thinking of doing that blog thing to pick on articles (with a heavy dose of local sports media), as I'm a bit of an *******. Haven't gotten around to it.

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01-14-2013, 08:59 AM
  #45
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Give him the 5 games and see how he does, 5 games isn't going to ruin a players development.

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01-14-2013, 09:03 AM
  #46
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A couple thoughts as I appreciate the input but don't really agree with your premise. For one, I think teams in transition are actually typically more likely to rush players than a team in contention, though that's not to say whether or not it is wise.
But that's what I would call making a team by "default". Buffalo is pretty thin down the middle, and bringing Grigorenko up just because of that may not be the best for his development, and thus may not be the best for the team longterm.

Toronto brought Schenn up right away, with the argument that he had "earned' a spot in the top 4. All he had to do was outplay the likes of Frogren, Finger, Van Ryn, and Stralman in training camp. Only one of those players is still in the NHL, and predominently plays in a bottom pairing role.

Huberdeau wasn't brought up last year, despite Florida having a pretty thing team up front. Same for Strome with NYI, ZBad with Ottawa, etc. I think the decision should be what's best for Grigorenko longterm, not what's best for the team this year. Because Grigorenkos longterm upside is very much tied to Buffalos.

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01-14-2013, 09:03 AM
  #47
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Not really worth the time and effort.

They are dinosaurs in a dying industry. The segment of the fan population that gets their sports opinion from newspaper columnists is rapidly decreasing. They speak to fewer people each day.

It will work itself out.
With TBN limiting the number of articles you can read online without a paid subscription, I'm hoping that time comes very soon.

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01-14-2013, 09:04 AM
  #48
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Give him the 5 games and see how he does, 5 games isn't going to ruin a players development.
5 games would probably be good for him IMO. Give him a taste, so he knows what he needs to work on for next year. And then he can work on those parts of his game in Junior, where it's much easier to make adjustments.

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01-14-2013, 09:04 AM
  #49
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If the kid can play at the NHL level, and be effective, then let him play. If he can't, send him back.

It's really as simple as that. Anything more is just over analyzing and trying to sound smart.

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01-14-2013, 09:10 AM
  #50
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If Grigorenko makes the team, would Ruff still try to ice a proto-typical checking line (with Ennis or Hodgson at C) or switch to a line-up of three balanced scoring lines and a grinder/checking line? I don't think anyone would want to try Grigorenko on a checking line, but I'm not sure Ennis or Hodgson would work out in that role either.

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