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Duchene for Gardiner (or similar defenseman) Discussion

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:33 AM
  #76
Avs44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brewmeister View Post
Only Leafs fan do this? You're hilarious.


Leafs say no
Coyotes say no to OEL
Washington doesnt need Duchene
NYR doesnt need Duchene
Montreal doesnt need Duchene
Edmonton needs D more than they need Duchene


That leaves you Anaheim, Carolina and Chicago.

Good luck.
Good luck? That part confuses me. You seem to be under the impression we actually want to trade Duchene...? I'll clear it up for you: We don't want to trade Duchene



And to the people bringing up stats comparing Duchene to Gardiner last year and saying Gardiner outscored him so he is more valuable.... One of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen on HF.

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Old
01-13-2013, 11:43 AM
  #77
Leafsforlife98
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
Typical HF post...

take a players worst year to date due to multiple injuries (Duchene) and compare it to a players only/best year (Gardiner).

Duchene and Gardiner aren't even in the same league. Duchene has a almost 70pts season at age 20, Gardiner had a decent rookie year lets wait and see if he progresses or stays the same.

If Toronto wants Duchene, one of Reilly or Kessell needs to be coming back.

It's actually not your typical post. You're typical post is Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak and a 1st round pick.

I never said that Duchene isn't worth more then Gardiner, but not as much as some people think and are saying.


Matt Duchene's Career

24 Goals 31 Assists 55 Points
27 Goals 40 Assists 67 Points
14 Goals 14 Assists 28 Points
4 Goals 10 Assists 14 Points in 19 Games in SEL.

He had 4 goals in 19 games playing Sweeden. Wasn't even at a point per game playing against players of inferior talent. And considering the ice is bigger there, he should have been able to blow by guys with his speed.

So Really, his career high is 67 points and he coming off a season in which he had a measly 28 points. Yes, he has potential, there is no denying that, but he has yet to take that next step. And in Colorado, he won't take that next step if O'Reilly and Stastny are ahead of him on the depth chart. His defensive game also isn't that great either.

So To say his value is worth Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick is a joke. Gardiner's value may never be higher than it is today. People thought the Kessel trade was lop sided. If they traded Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick for Matt Duchene, the reception would be worse then the Kessel trade.

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:02 PM
  #78
Bender
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Originally Posted by Leafsforlife98 View Post
It's actually not your typical post. You're typical post is Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak and a 1st round pick.

I never said that Duchene isn't worth more then Gardiner, but not as much as some people think and are saying.


Matt Duchene's Career

24 Goals 31 Assists 55 Points
27 Goals 40 Assists 67 Points
14 Goals 14 Assists 28 Points
4 Goals 10 Assists 14 Points in 19 Games in SEL.

He had 4 goals in 19 games playing Sweeden. Wasn't even at a point per game playing against players of inferior talent. And considering the ice is bigger there, he should have been able to blow by guys with his speed.

So Really, his career high is 67 points and he coming off a season in which he had a measly 28 points. Yes, he has potential, there is no denying that, but he has yet to take that next step. And in Colorado, he won't take that next step if O'Reilly and Stastny are ahead of him on the depth chart. His defensive game also isn't that great either.

So To say his value is worth Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick is a joke. Gardiner's value may never be higher than it is today. People thought the Kessel trade was lop sided. If they traded Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick for Matt Duchene, the reception would be worse then the Kessel trade.
Actually it IS your typical HF board post.

It's really AWESOME how you completely ignored GAMES PLAYED. Everyone here is really thrilled with that, I can assure you. Yes, Gardiner outscored Duchene by 2 points and played 17 more games but feel free to completely ignore that point, since it seems to help you.

It's also wonderful that you ignore:

24 Goals 31 Assists 55 Points <- AS AN 18 YEAR OLD
27 Goals 40 Assists 67 Points <- AS A 19 YEAR OLD

What was Gardiner doing at that age?? Oh yeah playing COLLEGE hockey and as a 19 year old, he only put up 13 points in 41 games played!!! [a down year? is that actually possible or did he start to completely suck?? ]

Better yet, what was your precious Phil Kessel doing at age 18 & 19 in the NHL?? Putting up 29 point and 37 point seasons. OMGZZ How did he manage to get so awesome with time, experience and maturity??

After what Duchene has shown at such a young age, trading him for Gardiner at this point would be beyond retarded.

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:04 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsforlife98 View Post
It's actually not your typical post. You're typical post is Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak and a 1st round pick.

I never said that Duchene isn't worth more then Gardiner, but not as much as some people think and are saying.


Matt Duchene's Career

24 Goals 31 Assists 55 Points
27 Goals 40 Assists 67 Points
14 Goals 14 Assists 28 Points
4 Goals 10 Assists 14 Points in 19 Games in SEL.

He had 4 goals in 19 games playing Sweeden. Wasn't even at a point per game playing against players of inferior talent. And considering the ice is bigger there, he should have been able to blow by guys with his speed.

So Really, his career high is 67 points and he coming off a season in which he had a measly 28 points. Yes, he has potential, there is no denying that, but he has yet to take that next step. And in Colorado, he won't take that next step if O'Reilly and Stastny are ahead of him on the depth chart. His defensive game also isn't that great either.

So To say his value is worth Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick is a joke. Gardiner's value may never be higher than it is today. People thought the Kessel trade was lop sided. If they traded Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick for Matt Duchene, the reception would be worse then the Kessel trade.
You make it sound like his career high of 67 point is not that impressive. Did you know before last season, Kessel's career high was 64 points? 67 points at his age is very impressive. He had a bad year last year, he did. His year was broken up with injuries and he never really found his game. He is also 21. Unless he follows that 28 point performance with something similar this year, I'm not going to judge him off it at all. The Avs will be more than happy to hang on to Duchene and wait for him to reach his potential. The only way a team would get him is if they are massively overpaying. If the Leafs don't wish to do that, fine.



Perhaps to you his value might not be worth Gardiner, Kadri, 1st. Perhaps to all the other teams in the league his value might not be that. But to the Avs? Yes. And quite honestly, I wouldn't even trade Duchene for that package even if it was offered. It does not really fill our needs, and with the uncertainty around ROR, Duchene goes nowhere. Add on to that Duchene's great contract, and the fact he is a life long Avs fan with superstar potential? You don't trade guys like that. I also think you're overrating Gardiner. He had one 30 point season. Look no further than J.M.Liles to see a player who did exactly the same thing. Other players who have already been mentioned in this thread who did that: Meszaros and Ballard. A 30 point rookie season does not guarantee you will be a great player. Is Gardiner's value at its highest? Absolutely. Is it nearly as high as some Leafs fans think? I don't think so. Tell me, how many players enter the league, put up 55 points, then follow that up with 67 points?



From the Avs end, we will happily keep Duchene. We have no reason to trade him. Unless an offer fills our needs, even if it is considered massive overpayment, we won't even consider moving him. Even then, Duchene is literally untouchable until the O'Reilly situation gets resolved.


Last edited by Avs44: 01-13-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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Old
01-13-2013, 12:07 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsforlife98 View Post
It's actually not your typical post. You're typical post is Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak and a 1st round pick.

I never said that Duchene isn't worth more then Gardiner, but not as much as some people think and are saying.


Matt Duchene's Career

24 Goals 31 Assists 55 Points
27 Goals 40 Assists 67 Points
14 Goals 14 Assists 28 Points
4 Goals 10 Assists 14 Points in 19 Games in SEL.

He had 4 goals in 19 games playing Sweeden. Wasn't even at a point per game playing against players of inferior talent. And considering the ice is bigger there, he should have been able to blow by guys with his speed.

So Really, his career high is 67 points and he coming off a season in which he had a measly 28 points. Yes, he has potential, there is no denying that, but he has yet to take that next step. And in Colorado, he won't take that next step if O'Reilly and Stastny are ahead of him on the depth chart. His defensive game also isn't that great either.

So To say his value is worth Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick is a joke. Gardiner's value may never be higher than it is today. People thought the Kessel trade was lop sided. If they traded Gardiner, Kadri and a 1st round pick for Matt Duchene, the reception would be worse then the Kessel trade.
I wont even get into most of your post, because its clear your lacking knowledge.

However Duchenes defensive game has improved tremendously this year. That's all he was working on over in Europe was improving his Dgame. He's now very good defensively, and turning into a pretty good 2 way forward. That's why he was producing as much(although the SEL isn't a high scoring league, 14 in 19 is actually not bad) as he could have, was because his make focus was his play without the puck on his stick.

But again. The Avs are more then happy to keep Duchene in the Burgundy and Blue. We don't want to trade him. If you don't like his play stop trying to trade for him.

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:28 PM
  #81
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as a leafs fan I'd say duchene's value is > gardiner. gardiner may look like something special but he's only been a flash in the pan thus far, where as duchene has been at least decent for three seasons.

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:46 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Jake Gardiner hasn't done anything yet. He's certainly not as good as Erik Johnson and may not ever be.

Duchene is like 21 years old - and already has accomplished a lot. Had a tough year with injuries but way to early to give up on him, especially for a guy like Gardiner.

I get Leafs fans are high on Gardiner but you have to wait for him to actually establish himself as a legit #1 defender before thinking he has the value of one. Right now he has about as much value as guys like John Moore in Columbus, Slava Voynov in LA, Roman Josi in Nashville, etc.
I've got issues with the bolded sections.

1) Gardiner is basically the same age as Duchesne, but has one "impact" NHL season. He played 75 games, and was basically the #2 d-man on the Leafs. He was only a -2, which is a huge accomplishment considering the Leafs goaltending last year. That's not "nothing", especially for a rookie playing defense which is signicantly more difficult than contributing as a forward.
2) The guys you mention:
* Moore showed flashes in CLM, but he hasn't shown anywhere close to what Gardiner has.
* Voynov & Josi both looked good, but were playing on VERY deep bluelines anchored by all-star guys (Doughty, Weber, Suter) and on teams that had awesome defensive systems.

I'm not saying that Gardiner is equal value for Duchesne, but saying that he hasn't proven anything, or that the guys you mention have similar value is a load of crap IMO.

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:52 PM
  #83
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Matt Duchene for Keith Yandle makes a lot of sense for me

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Old
01-13-2013, 12:57 PM
  #84
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Subban for Duchene could be something that could be worked around

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Old
01-13-2013, 01:18 PM
  #85
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Avs can't and won't trade Duchene because of Stastny's and O'Reilly's contract situations.

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01-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #86
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O'Reilly, Siemens for Gardiner, Bozak, pick/prospect

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01-13-2013, 02:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Blayzer View Post
O'Reilly, Siemens for Gardiner, Bozak, pick/prospect
One of our best defensive prospects and hardest working centers for a top 4 defender with top 2 potential, upcoming UFA and something we don't want. Oh this is a great deal, I feel bad though that your getting fleeced.

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01-13-2013, 03:46 PM
  #88
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Leafs fans should just stop.

It's clear they're incapable of offering remotely fair value. Burke's Phaneuf and Gardiner deals must have done that.

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01-13-2013, 03:47 PM
  #89
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O'Reilly, Siemens for Gardiner, Bozak, pick/prospect
That is ridiculously bad.

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01-13-2013, 04:56 PM
  #90
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Gardiner is damaged goods. Concussion. Wouldn't go near him.


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Old
01-13-2013, 09:18 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by subbanged View Post
Subban for Duchene could be something that could be worked around
No, no it couldn't.

You guys need to keep Subban, being local and NOT a Habs fan, I'm enjoying the sideshow.

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01-13-2013, 09:33 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Gardiner is damaged goods. Concussion. Wouldn't go near him.
Here we go, I know it would be said.

Don't touch Crosby either.

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Old
01-13-2013, 09:46 PM
  #93
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Here we go, I know it would be said.

Don't touch Crosby either.
The difference is Duchene > Gardiner as it is and concussion issues just push them further apart.

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01-14-2013, 12:57 AM
  #94
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done deal so long as we can trade Duchene for Phaneuf after and you guys pinky promise to sign Stastny after the Avs let him walk for free at the end of his contract. Then these painful threads will come to an end. Everyone wins!!

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01-14-2013, 08:32 AM
  #95
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In fact why don't we just exchange each teams core players. The Leafs can have Stastny, Duchene, Oreilly, EJ, and Varlamov. And we'll take Bozak, Gardiner, Komisarek, Kadri, and Reimer.

Seems like both sides get solid core pieces.

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01-14-2013, 09:03 AM
  #96
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Why would the leafs say no? This finally gives them the 1st line center they've been looking for for the past few years. Gardiner might be good but how often do young D men come into the league and have a good year then fade back into realistic expectations?



Happens all the time
Id go Gards for Duchene 1 for 1, from a TO standpoint. With Rielly coming up fast through the system and looking NHL ready maybe this year but probably next, a guy like Gardiner could be expendible and Duchene is a very skillful player with good speed that on paper seems would be a good fit between Kessel and Lupul.

However i do agree Duchene is a very solid player and wouldnt be surprised if a pick went back the AV's direction. Maybe a 2nd.

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01-14-2013, 09:09 AM
  #97
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The difference is Duchene > Gardiner as it is and concussion issues just push them further apart.
New out of training camp is its prcautionary why he was sat out in AHL in expectation of an NHL season. He is only showing "concussion like symptoms" which could be better or worse than it sounds. Overall he is expected to be ready for the first game in MTL on the 19th.

Neverthelss, Duchene is a better player than Gards no doubt. But if your looking for a Left handed puck moving defensemen thats young with upside, you dont get much better than Gards. Im thinking: Gardiner + 2nd for Duchene. Something along those lines.

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01-14-2013, 09:26 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lebda Snipes View Post
New out of training camp is its prcautionary why he was sat out in AHL in expectation of an NHL season. He is only showing "concussion like symptoms" which could be better or worse than it sounds. Overall he is expected to be ready for the first game in MTL on the 19th.

Neverthelss, Duchene is a better player than Gards no doubt. But if your looking for a Left handed puck moving defensemen thats young with upside, you dont get much better than Gards. Im thinking: Gardiner + 2nd for Duchene. Something along those lines.
Lol this is still a horrible offer. Even Gardiner + 1st is an easy no from the Avs. Gardiner isn't in the same ball park as Duchene when it comes to value.

Nothing on the Leafs would be tempting enough for the Avs to move Duchene. Not even Kessel at this point.

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01-14-2013, 09:47 AM
  #99
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Lol this is still a horrible offer. Even Gardiner + 1st is an easy no from the Avs. Gardiner isn't in the same ball park as Duchene when it comes to value.

Nothing on the Leafs would be tempting enough for the Avs to move Duchene. Not even Kessel at this point.
If you wouldnt move Duchene for Kessel you are clearly overvaluating Duchene.

The guy is good dont get me wrong. But Gardiner + 1st is more than ballpark for Duchene. If your looking for more than that anywhere else in the league your sadly mistaken.

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01-14-2013, 10:03 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Lebda Snipes View Post
If you wouldnt move Duchene for Kessel you are clearly overvaluating Duchene.

The guy is good dont get me wrong. But Gardiner + 1st is more than ballpark for Duchene. If your looking for more than that anywhere else in the league your sadly mistaken.
Not really. Duchene is a 21 year old who was a PPG player at the all star game two years ago, soon after that injuries and trades caused the avs to fall apart and then last year Duchene got hurt. With dutchy healthy again and the avs having real depth for once, there's no reason not to expect him to get back to where he already was, which considering his age and position makes him just as valuable as Kessel, and more valuable to the avs.

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