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NY Post 01/14/2013: Gaborik switches sides [to LW]

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Old
01-14-2013, 11:08 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
It's not that Cally is a better player than Kreider. He's just more suited than Kreider to play on the 3rd line.
I think you have that backwards. There is no argument that Callahan is our best all around player. He is unbelievable. And having said that, that is why he is a much better FIT than kreider on that 3rd line. But hey, that is just too unreasonable to be even thought about let alone discussed...

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01-14-2013, 11:12 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
While at this point it's debatable whether or not Hagelin has "top six" skills, there's no denying that he's the kind of guy who can stir the drink on a scoring line. Very few guys are as fast as he is, and even fewer are as willing to work their ***** off in the dirty areas. Couple that with his passing ability and you have a guy who likely will continue to be a very effective complimentary player for a long time.
Good point, and I agree. I dont think Hagelin has traditional top 6 playmaking/scoring skills, but his speed is definitely an X-factor. This team is talented enough that he can be relied upon to upon up lanes and hunt down pucks with that speed.

My only issue is that I kind of liked having Hagelin on the 3rd line because a Boyle/Pyatt combination is going to be used in a shutdown role and I think Hagelin is a smart enough player to handle that. Kreider, right now? Im not so sure.

In some ways, Kreider might have more pressure on him playing on the 3rd line, as opposed to the first line where he can worry primarily about offense. Dont get me wrong, I want Kreider to learn the defensive side of the puck and become a better all-around player. But its going to be difficult to learn on the job in a 48 game season where the Rangers are expected to make a deep run.

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01-14-2013, 11:15 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
I see nothing wrong with Kreider on the 3rd line. This isn't pre 2005 lockout where 3rd lines were all checking players. You put Chris with Boyle and Pyatt, you give that line a breakaway threat.
And who's gonna get him the pass?

Chris Kreider would be looked at to carry all the offensive production on that third line while having the pressure of having to face the toughest minutes on the team against the other team's best players.

On the second line, he can keep a low profile under Gabby, not have as much defensive responsibility (relatively speaking, any forward playing under Torts is going to get plenty of defensive responsibility) and score without having to shoulder the offensive load. Putting him on the second line is putting him in a position for success. Putting him on the third is setting him up for failure.

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01-14-2013, 11:15 AM
  #54
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01-14-2013, 11:18 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
I think you have that backwards. There is no argument that Callahan is our best all around player. He is unbelievable. And having said that, that is why he is a much better FIT than kreider on that 3rd line. But hey, that is just too unreasonable to be even thought about let alone discussed...
Sure, we can discuss it. I just wholeheartedly disagree with you considering Callahan, being the Rangers best all-around forward, should be playing more than 10-15 minutes a night at ES.

Kreider needs to learn to play both ways. Let him develop on the 3rd line and when Torts mixes up the lines bring him up if he proves he can be consistent.

Callahan had 29 goals last year. 29. Kreider played in the NCAA. We all hope Kreider turns out to be a good player but taking away the Rangers best all-around forward's minutes is not a good way to go about that.

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01-14-2013, 11:20 AM
  #56
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You put Kreider with other offensive players you're making that line a defensive liability.

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01-14-2013, 11:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
I think you have that backwards. There is no argument that Callahan is our best all around player. He is unbelievable. And having said that, that is why he is a much better FIT than kreider on that 3rd line. But hey, that is just too unreasonable to be even thought about let alone discussed...
Yep, that should be either "it's not that Kreider is a better player than Cally" or "it's not that Cally is not a better player than Kreider".

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01-14-2013, 11:25 AM
  #58
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01-14-2013, 11:27 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Sure, we can discuss it. I just wholeheartedly disagree with you considering Callahan, being the Rangers best all-around forward, should be playing more than 10-15 minutes a night at ES.

Kreider needs to learn to play both ways. Let him develop on the 3rd line and when Torts mixes up the lines bring him up if he proves he can be consistent.

Callahan had 29 goals last year. 29. Kreider played in the NCAA. We all hope Kreider turns out to be a good player but taking away the Rangers best all-around forward's minutes is not a good way to go about that.
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
You put Kreider with other offensive players you're making that line a defensive liability.
First of all, how many of Callahan's goals were ES? All stats show he is a pedestrian (offensive) ES player, and no Kreider-in-the-top-6-supporter (or whatever you want to call us) will argue against Callahan getting top PP/PK time. He will still get his goals on the PP, will still get his ice time, and will still get his points at ES (which favor a rough forecheck/cycle style anyway- which is what he'd be doing with Boyle and Pyatt. He would not be doing that with Stepan and Gaborik, while also forcing Gaborik to his non-natural LW since Callahan was terrible on his off-wing)

@ Antithesis, any line you put Kreider on will be somewhat of a defensive liability, because he's not a good defensive player, which is why I would 100% rather put him on a line where he's not being counted on to shutdown the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Kovalchuk, Tavares.etc

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01-14-2013, 11:28 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Good point, and I agree. I dont think Hagelin has traditional top 6 playmaking/scoring skills, but his speed is definitely an X-factor. This team is talented enough that he can be relied upon to upon up lanes and hunt down pucks with that speed.

My only issue is that I kind of liked having Hagelin on the 3rd line because a Boyle/Pyatt combination is going to be used in a shutdown role and I think Hagelin is a smart enough player to handle that. Kreider, right now? Im not so sure.

In some ways, Kreider might have more pressure on him playing on the 3rd line, as opposed to the first line where he can worry primarily about offense. Dont get me wrong, I want Kreider to learn the defensive side of the puck and become a better all-around player. But its going to be difficult to learn on the job in a 48 game season where the Rangers are expected to make a deep run.
I agree about having Hagelin on the 3rd line. I think if you matched those 3 together, they might not be an elite "shutdown line" but they'd certainly be a nightmare on the forecheck. Kreider could ultimately have a similar role that Hagelin might have, but I don't think he's necessarily the puck-retrieval type.

I would have liked to see the team at least invite a 3rd line type to camp in case Kreider isn't quite ready for a long stint in the NHL. I think the worst thing they can do right now is throw the kid into the deep end and hope for the best. Then again, I'm not terribly happy with the situation in CT either. That team is a ****-show.

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01-14-2013, 11:32 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
First of all, how many of Callahan's goals were ES? All stats show he is a pedestrian (offensive) ES player, and no Kreider-in-the-top-6-supporter (or whatever you want to call us) will argue against Callahan getting top PP/PK time. He will still get his goals on the PP.
Points Per Game (ES)
Callahan: .49
Richards: .51
Nash: .49
Stepan: .43

I guess we have lots of "pedestrian" offensive players at ES. LOL.

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01-14-2013, 11:34 AM
  #62
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Torts puts RW on left side? What else is new? Ah, the hockey is finally back... that what it was!

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01-14-2013, 11:36 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Torts puts RW on left side? What else is new? Ah, the hockey is finally back... that what it was!
It beats arguing over make-whole provisions.

Its been said already, but if Gaborik doesn't work on the left side he'll be back over in about 3 games maximum. Tortorella has decided to create two powerful lines by splitting our 40 goal guys, he just seems to think this is the best way to do it. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on it.

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01-14-2013, 11:37 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Sure, we can discuss it. I just wholeheartedly disagree with you considering Callahan, being the Rangers best all-around forward, should be playing more than 10-15 minutes a night at ES.

Kreider needs to learn to play both ways. Let him develop on the 3rd line and when Torts mixes up the lines bring him up if he proves he can be consistent.

Callahan had 29 goals last year. 29. Kreider played in the NCAA. We all hope Kreider turns out to be a good player but taking away the Rangers best all-around forward's minutes is not a good way to go about that.
Listen I respect what you are saying and I understand your point of view but I still disagree with kreider being on that 3rd line. Whether it's callahan or hagelin, one of the two should be on the 3rd line. And especially to the bolded part of your post, He still will play more than those minutes in general. I think if you consider PP and PK time, callahan will play 12-17 minutes a night of ES time regardless of what line he is on. Him being put on the 3rd line does not mean at all his ice time will decrease. Because in late game situations, or in any crucial situations callahan will be bumped up to the top 6 to have more defensive stability when holding a lead or with big faceoffs in the defensive end. He will be double shifted.

He will still get the ice time. You are moving Kreider up to play with better offensive players because it suits his particular game better. Being that callahan is a great all around player, you can put him on any line. Kreider, imo, you cannot.

The post below is also a good response to the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
First of all, how many of Callahan's goals were ES? All stats show he is a pedestrian (offensive) ES player, and no Kreider-in-the-top-6-supporter (or whatever you want to call us) will argue against Callahan getting top PP/PK time. He will still get his goals on the PP, will still get his ice time, and will still get his points at ES (which favor a rough forecheck/cycle style anyway- which is what he'd be doing with Boyle and Pyatt. He would not be doing that with Stepan and Gaborik, while also forcing Gaborik to his non-natural LW since Callahan was terrible on his off-wing)

@ Antithesis, any line you put Kreider on will be somewhat of a defensive liability, because he's not a good defensive player, which is why I would 100% rather put him on a line where he's not being counted on to shutdown the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Kovalchuk, Tavares.etc

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01-14-2013, 11:40 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
First of all, how many of Callahan's goals were ES? All stats show he is a pedestrian (offensive) ES player, and no Kreider-in-the-top-6-supporter (or whatever you want to call us) will argue against Callahan getting top PP/PK time. He will still get his goals on the PP, will still get his ice time, and will still get his points at ES (which favor a rough forecheck/cycle style anyway- which is what he'd be doing with Boyle and Pyatt. He would not be doing that with Stepan and Gaborik, while also forcing Gaborik to his non-natural LW since Callahan was terrible on his off-wing)
Callahan notched twice as many points at ES as he did on the PP. His PP production accounted for 31% of his "total offense". How exactly does that make him a "pedestrian" offensive player? 27% of Gaborik's offense came on the PP. 36% of Richards points were on the PP.

Call me crazy, but I'll take a proven Callahan in my top-six over an unproven Kreider any day of the week. Gift-wrapping minutes to kids is the antithesis of what this team is all about. You can try and justify it with this "shutdown line" stuff, but there's no merit behind what you're saying. Callahan is one of this teams best forwards. He belongs on one of the top two lines. If Kreider can't cut the mustard on the third line because he's a liability, then he should go back to CT to learn how to play defense.

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01-14-2013, 12:02 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Points Per Game (ES)
Callahan: .49
Richards: .51
Nash: .49
Stepan: .43

I guess we have lots of "pedestrian" offensive players at ES. LOL.
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Callahan notched twice as many points at ES as he did on the PP. His PP production accounted for 31% of his "total offense". How exactly does that make him a "pedestrian" offensive player? 27% of Gaborik's offense came on the PP. 36% of Richards points were on the PP.

Call me crazy, but I'll take a proven Callahan in my top-six over an unproven Kreider any day of the week. Gift-wrapping minutes to kids is the antithesis of what this team is all about. You can try and justify it with this "shutdown line" stuff, but there's no merit behind what you're saying. Callahan is one of this teams best forwards. He belongs on one of the top two lines. If Kreider can't cut the mustard on the third line because he's a liability, then he should go back to CT to learn how to play defense.
We certainly do have many pedestrian offensive players. That is why despite having the best goalie in the NHL and arguably the top defense in the NHL it took us 14 games to get past the first two rounds of the playoffs, and it's why we lost to NJ in the conference finals.

Richards was slumping all of last year, and I think a lot of that was because he was playing with Callahan and Dubinsky for the majority of the year. Again, Cally and Dubi are not bad players by ANY stretch, but they simply don't fit Richie's style. That is not the game he plays (and before somebody tries to compare Cally/Dubi to James Neal/Loui Eriksson, they are not at all similar players). Once he started playing with Gabby and Hags (players who DO fit his style) he started putting up big points.

I don't know how you can honestly compare Nash and Callahan. Nash was playing on the worst team in the NHL and Cally was on one of the best. If you think Cally and Nash's ES PPG will be anywhere near each other this year (even if Cally plays in the top-6, which he almost definitely will, since Torts obviously loves him (and for good reason)) I don't know what to tell you.

As far as Stepan, I think everyone would say Callahan is a much better player than Stepan. Stepan is not an offensive force at this point in his career, and again, I don't think he ever will be. But for the fifth time, his playing style perfectly compliments Kreider, and I'm sure as hell not putting Gaborik on the third line, which is why I have Callahan down there.

If we didn't have "pedestrian ES players", we would've been celebrating at a parade about six months ago.


EDIT:

And considering the first game of Kreider's career outside of college Kreider comes into the NHL playoffs and started on the first line, I think it's very fair to say that Torts has no problem in giving people ice time for reasons more than simply "he earned it". Why was he on the first line? Because he wanted Kreider to serve a role, which was to try and replace Hagelin's speed on the first line. Was he the third best forward on the team which is why he was on the first line? Hell no. But Torts wanted him to serve a role. Putting him in a third line checking role when he is not an established two-way forward at this time (and likely never will be) is a recipe for failure.

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01-14-2013, 12:04 PM
  #67
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I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone. Just pointing out that Callahan's ES scoring rates are just fine. You made it sound like he's incapable of scoring unless we're a man up.

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01-14-2013, 12:08 PM
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3 pages of this thread and only one person mentioned why this actually happened. Funny stuff guys.

Step 1.) Tortorella wants Nash to play with Richards
Step 2.) Tortoerlla wants to separate Nash and Gaborik
Step 3.) Stepan is a righty playmaker with a tendency to dish to his left
Step 4.) Move the goal-scorer on Stepan's line to his left

Really pretty simple. If that's the logic, moving Nash to Richards' left when Richards is a lefty defeats the purpose.

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01-14-2013, 12:12 PM
  #69
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Our even strength scoring wasn't a problem last year, so i'm much, much more interested in what we do with the groups on the power play than on even strength.

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01-14-2013, 12:13 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone. Just pointing out that Callahan's ES scoring rates are just fine.
I agree with you. I'm not saying Callahan doesn't belong in the top-6 because his scoring his too low to be in the top-6. I'm just saying I disagree with the fact that it's asinine to take him out of the top six because he scored 54 points last year.

Brandon Dubinsky scored 32 ES points last year.
Ryan Callahan scored 37 ES points last year.
Artem Anisimov scored 32 ES points last year.

Some of Arty's points were with Gabby, yes, but some of Cally's points were with Richie. Yet Arty was always bounced around to the 3rd and 4th lines, and nobody thought it was that ridiculous.

Again, I'm not saying Callahan isn't a valid top-6er and should be moved down because he lacks the production of an "ideal top-6er". That is asinine. I'm saying he would fit the role of a third line winger MUCH better than a Chris Kreider, and our team would be more balanced and better off with that set-up.

EDIT: And I would love for you to show me where I said he is incapable of scoring ES. Pedestrian does not mean incapable. If you look at your average second liners, I bet they hover right around what Callahan gets ES, which is exactly what I meant by pedestrian (i.e. average).

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01-14-2013, 12:15 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
3 pages of this thread and only one person mentioned why this actually happened. Funny stuff guys.

Step 1.) Tortorella wants Nash to play with Richards
Step 2.) Tortoerlla wants to separate Nash and Gaborik
Step 3.) Stepan is a righty playmaker with a tendency to dish to his left
Step 4.) Move the goal-scorer on Stepan's line to his left

Really pretty simple. If that's the logic, moving Nash to Richards' left when Richards is a lefty defeats the purpose.
Yet, Stepan had no problem setting up Gaborik for most of the year.

I think Tortorella is over thinking this...

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01-14-2013, 12:17 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Our even strength scoring wasn't a problem last year, so i'm much, much more interested in what we do with the groups on the power play than on even strength.
Yes. We had one of the best GF/GA ratios at even strength. Our PP was pathetic and downright unwatchable, save for the Devils series.

I'd like to load up the first unit. Nash. Richards. Gaborik. DZ. Callahan or Stepan. With this caliber of players, there are no excuses this year.

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01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Tortorella explained exactly what his thought process is in this decision. If folks would only take the extra five seconds to read past the headline.

Stepan is a right-handed shot. His natural instinct is to go to the left with the puck. Tortorella wants Gaborik on Stepan's strong side.

http://snyrangersblog.com/2012-13-pl...pot-on-the-lw/

Its right there as clear as day.
That's all fine and good.

But Nash has played alot mroe LW than Gaborik has throughout his career and would be better suited to making that shift.

Nash is also a Left handed shot.

Still makes no sense to have Gaborik shift wings.

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01-14-2013, 12:29 PM
  #74
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We certainly do have many pedestrian offensive players. That is why despite having the best goalie in the NHL and arguably the top defense in the NHL it took us 14 games to get past the first two rounds of the playoffs, and it's why we lost to NJ in the conference finals.

Richards was slumping all of last year, and I think a lot of that was because he was playing with Callahan and Dubinsky for the majority of the year. Again, Cally and Dubi are not bad players by ANY stretch, but they simply don't fit Richie's style. That is not the game he plays (and before somebody tries to compare Cally/Dubi to James Neal/Loui Eriksson, they are not at all similar players). Once he started playing with Gabby and Hags (players who DO fit his style) he started putting up big points.

I don't know how you can honestly compare Nash and Callahan. Nash was playing on the worst team in the NHL and Cally was on one of the best. If you think Cally and Nash's ES PPG will be anywhere near each other this year (even if Cally plays in the top-6, which he almost definitely will, since Torts obviously loves him (and for good reason)) I don't know what to tell you.

As far as Stepan, I think everyone would say Callahan is a much better player than Stepan. Stepan is not an offensive force at this point in his career, and again, I don't think he ever will be. But for the fifth time, his playing style perfectly compliments Kreider, and I'm sure as hell not putting Gaborik on the third line, which is why I have Callahan down there.

If we didn't have "pedestrian ES players", we would've been celebrating at a parade about six months ago.
Richards took time to adjust to playing on this team. He admitted that much himself. It had very little to do with suddenly getting the right players on his line. If Gaborik was so perfect for him, why wasn't he producing early on in the season where he started on a line with Gaborik?

Nobody is "comparing" Nash and Callahan. However, what nyr2k2 and I both demonstrated to you is that if you remove the PP production from a players point totals, you can make just about anyone look "pedestrian." Take away Shea Weber's PP numbers and he's a 25pt D-man and not a perennial Norris candidate.

Quote:
EDIT:

And considering the first game of Kreider's career outside of college Kreider comes into the NHL playoffs and started on the first line, I think it's very fair to say that Torts has no problem in giving people ice time for reasons more than simply "he earned it". Why was he on the first line? Because he wanted Kreider to serve a role, which was to try and replace Hagelin's speed on the first line. Was he the third best forward on the team which is why he was on the first line? Hell no. But Torts wanted him to serve a role. Putting him in a third line checking role when he is not an established two-way forward at this time (and likely never will be) is a recipe for failure.
Tortorella needed someone to replace Hagelin after he was suspended. Had he not been suspended, there's a high probability that he would have never even cracked the lineup. If it was Callahan who was suspended, he likely would have started on the 2nd line. If he was so perfect for the role, then he wouldn't have been removed from that role as soon as Hags returned to the lineup. Hell, I don't even think he lasted the entire game on the first line.

Right now, Hagelin and Callahan are both better options in the "role" that you're speaking of. Until Kreider can prove that he's a better option than either of them, he belongs on the 3rd line or in Hartford.

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01-14-2013, 12:33 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
3 pages of this thread and only one person mentioned why this actually happened. Funny stuff guys.

Step 1.) Tortorella wants Nash to play with Richards
Step 2.) Tortoerlla wants to separate Nash and Gaborik
Step 3.) Stepan is a righty playmaker with a tendency to dish to his left
Step 4.) Move the goal-scorer on Stepan's line to his left

Really pretty simple. If that's the logic, moving Nash to Richards' left when Richards is a lefty defeats the purpose.
I think this is a good move. We have been discussing splitting up the offense so it is a more balanced attack. Shouldn't put your eggs all into one basket. Gaborik and Stepan had success last year on the GAS line. It is a good move.

Put Gabby-Richie-Nash on the PP unit together even if its Richie on the point with Stepan at center.

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