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Old
01-13-2013, 06:44 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
This is an interesting point. Both Campbell and Phaneuf are overpaid. Both are important to their team. Neither team regrets adding them. And yet I can count on no fingers the amount of times I've seen Florida fans talk about stealing Campbell from Chicago. And the Flames did a lot better in their deal than Chicago did.
Maybe because you never hear from Florida fans? Seriously, you're comparing Florida and Toronto?

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01-13-2013, 06:49 PM
  #152
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Maybe because you never hear from Florida fans? Seriously, you're comparing Florida and Toronto?
Wouldn't the whole fanbase size argument be more valid from someone who didn't come into the thread and whine because I said the Phaneuf trade wasn't robbery by Toronto? I feel like it would.

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01-13-2013, 06:49 PM
  #153
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Toronto would kill to have what Garth Snow has built.


You have a young superstar, locked up long term for less than $5.5 million through 2018 who looks likd he could be a top 5 player in the league. Impossible to argue Kessel and his contract which is about to run out versus Tavares.

Solid, young talent on the roster like Neideritter, Grabner, Okposo, Hamonic...some nice pieces like Moulson, and a sick prospect pool that most GMs would kill for. Ryan Strome, Griffin Reinhart, Calvin de Haan, etc...basically, Snow lets the Canadian media make fun of him, he knows Tavares is a stud, and he's being patient and building around him and should have guys coming up around him in the next 3-4 years. And Tavares is obviously bought in to that plan, hence the extension. Getting Tavares to sign that clearly means Snow is the guy there, no WAY would they replace him with Burke
Garth Snow has sat on his butt and done what Wang told him. He deserves no credit. He's literally done nothing.

The Islanders should be much better right ow than they are. Do you know how many top picks and how much rebuilding they've done?

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01-13-2013, 06:50 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Wouldn't the whole fanbase size argument be more valid from someone who didn't come into the thread and whine because I said the Phaneuf trade wasn't robbery by Toronto? I feel like it would.
I just pointed out, Burke shipped out a lot of money in that deal.

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01-13-2013, 06:52 PM
  #155
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Please point where I said Toronto is "Stacked"? I said I'm not sold on Florida's supposed amazing future.

And again, Florida making the playoffs means what? They were in a weak division and made it by buying veterans.
It means they were a more competitive and accomplished team last season. That is a goal of the NHL from what I know. Toronto also plays in a weak division and bought veterans. They even traded their two most valuable assets for a "superstar" forward. And yet they still are a bottom feeder. So yeah, I'd say Tallon's done a better job than Burke. Any comment about the prospect pool or do you know Florida's completely outclasses Toronto's?

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01-13-2013, 06:54 PM
  #156
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What does "buying veterans" even mean?

Campbell was 32 but he's a 5 year top 4 D for them.

Upshall was 28 and expected to contribute in a high end 3rd/low end 2nd line role for 4 years, in line with his career production.

Fleischmann was 27 when he was brought in and expected to be a big offensive piece for next 4 years. He played even better than expected but he was there for the medium-long haul.

Versteeg himself was bought by Toronto as a young piece, part of the rebuild before being dumped, and is a core player for them for at least 4 years.

Bergenheim was 27

All those "veterans" Tallon got were brought in to play at right through their primes for 4 years. That's one less year than Phil "franchise" Kessel.

Only real veterans Tallon bought are Theodore, Jovanovski and Weaver, and Theodore has been a (successful) bridge goalie for Markstrom, Weaver has been playing way beyond his contract and expectations laid out for him, while Jovanovski has been a nonfactor.

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01-13-2013, 06:55 PM
  #157
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Burke is worth about the cost of the cab fare to drive him to the airport.

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01-13-2013, 06:56 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
It means they were a more competitive and accomplished team last season. That is a goal of the NHL from what I know. Toronto also plays in a weak division and bought veterans. They even traded their two most valuable assets for a "superstar" forward. And yet they still are a bottom feeder. So yeah, I'd say Tallon's done a better job than Burke. Any comment about the prospect pool or do you know Florida's completely outclasses Toronto's?
Florida destroys Toronto's prospect pool. Means zero to me. I'm sick of hearing about Florida's amazing future. It's never arrived. Same thing with the Islanders.

Toronto could very well end up the better future team.

And yes, Phil Kessel is a superstar.

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01-13-2013, 07:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Garth Snow has sat on his butt and done what Wang told him. He deserves no credit. He's literally done nothing.

The Islanders should be much better right ow than they are. Do you know how many top picks and how much rebuilding they've done?
I do - pretty sure I just explained the great prospect pool and future it's got them. It's not Snow's fault he is saddled with DiPietro.

What he didn't do was trade those picks or prospects for an established player and mortgage any future, even though that meant enduring some dreadful seasons.

Of course, no one can predict the future of Florida or Toronto. That said - Florida in a year or two of Tallon was already a better team than what Brian Burke built in four years. That's not debatable, last year's record shows that.

As far as the future, again, nothing is set in stone but Florida's prospects are more highly touted.

The Panthers have a guy named Dimitri Kulikov - he is 22, the same age as Jake Gardiner, and is easily better than (or at least as good as) him with a lot more NHL experience. So you can't play the "but we have Jake Gardiner!" card either

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01-13-2013, 07:05 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I do - pretty sure I just explained the great prospect pool and future it's got them. It's not Snow's fault he is saddled with DiPietro.

What he didn't do was trade those picks or prospects for an established player and mortgage any future, even though that meant enduring some dreadful seasons.

Of course, no one can predict the future of Florida or Toronto. That said - Florida in a year or two of Tallon was already a better team than what Brian Burke built in four years. That's not debatable, last year's record shows that.

As far as the future, again, nothing is set in stone but Florida's prospects are more highly touted.

The Panthers have a guy named Dimitri Kulikov - he is 22, the same age as Jake Gardiner, and is easily better than (or at least as good as) him with a lot more NHL experience. So you can't play the "but we have Jake Gardiner!" card either
Not that I disagree with you, because I don't, but Florida was -24 last year. I love what they've done, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them take a step back this year and finish out of the playoffs. IMO they haven't hit their stride yet.

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01-13-2013, 07:06 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I do - pretty sure I just explained the great prospect pool and future it's got them. It's not Snow's fault he is saddled with DiPietro.

What he didn't do was trade those picks or prospects for an established player and mortgage any future, even though that meant enduring some dreadful seasons.

Of course, no one can predict the future of Florida or Toronto. That said - Florida in a year or two of Tallon was already a better team than what Brian Burke built in four years. That's not debatable, last year's record shows that.

As far as the future, again, nothing is set in stone but Florida's prospects are more highly touted.

The Panthers have a guy named Dimitri Kulikov - he is 22, the same age as Jake Gardiner, and is easily better than (or at least as good as) him with a lot more NHL experience. So you can't play the "but we have Jake Gardiner!" card either
All you care about is the Kessel trade. What about Gardiner and Lupul for Beauchemin? What about Burke adding Rielly, Finn, Percy, Biggs?

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01-13-2013, 07:20 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
All you care about is the Kessel trade. What about Gardiner and Lupul for Beauchemin? What about Burke adding Rielly, Finn, Percy, Biggs?
The Gardiner trade and the Phanuef trades were clear wins and great moves by Burke. I haven't said otherwise.

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01-13-2013, 07:22 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Not that I disagree with you, because I don't, but Florida was -24 last year. I love what they've done, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them take a step back this year and finish out of the playoffs. IMO they haven't hit their stride yet.
Agree. Although I'd to love to see how Markstrom does if he makes the team this year.

I can totally see guys like Versteeg and Fleishmann come back to earth a bit.

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01-13-2013, 08:04 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
All you care about is the Kessel trade. What about Gardiner and Lupul for Beauchemin? What about Burke adding Rielly, Finn, Percy, Biggs?
Burke made some draft picks. Just like every other GM . He only got Rielly due to unintentional tanking. Hardly a ringing accomplishment.

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01-13-2013, 08:29 PM
  #165
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Burke made some draft picks. Just like every other GM . He only got Rielly due to unintentional tanking. Hardly a ringing accomplishment.
In the last 4 years the Blue Jackets (for example) have drafted Moore, Savard, Johansen, Jenner, Murray, and Dansk, among others. Their fans don't seem all that thrilled though

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01-14-2013, 10:01 AM
  #166
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Maybe because you never hear from Florida fans? Seriously, you're comparing Florida and Toronto?
If you lose the sense of entitlement about Toronto, and just judge teams based on roster and performance, it will be a lot easier to have the discussion. No one is knocking the city of Toronto, their fanbase, or the history of the franchise.

A point was simply made about Brian Burke doing a terrible job, and not having great value as a GM right now. Dale Tallon proves you can accomplish what Brian Burke said he could do, which was use free agency and trades to get competitive now while also building for the future. Tallon did that in half the time Burke had while Burke defenders say he didn't have enough time.

I used the CBJ as another example - they are a terrible team, that, just like the Leafs, is known for having the worst coaching and worst GMing in the league the last 4 years. Even the bad management, their roster is in better shape than the Leafs going forward. The Jackets, like the Leafs, did some misguided win now trades and signings (Jeff Carter, Commodore, etc) that didn't work out, but still, even Scott Howson has managed to at least get his current roster full of YOUNG NHL talent with potential and stock the system with prospects a bit. If you get out GMed by Scott Howson you deserve to be done as a general manager in the NHL.

I believe this supports the argument that Burke has very low value right now. Although I do think Buffalo would want him as I said, because they want attention and want to be seen as a major player under their new owner. Burke's false bravado would certainly accomplish that.


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01-14-2013, 10:03 AM
  #167
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I think he'll do a lot of good in a place like Columbus. He certainly has the small market mentality necessary.
I think he's more of a big market guy tbh definetly loves the media. Burke is a finisher though he can make a good team great, he's not patient enough to rebuild a team from scratch though

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01-14-2013, 10:18 AM
  #168
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I don't think you'll see him employed by another team as a GM any time soon. He's worn out his welcome in the league I think, the sideshow that is Brian Burke doesn't produce results from a building perspective. He's a great trader and could put a team that has depth and talent over the edge, as he did in Anaheim, but I think people are tired of his BS.

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01-14-2013, 10:21 AM
  #169
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I do not know how anyone can compare these two GM's performances when the situation that Tallon walked into was completely different that the situation that Burke had to deal with.

How many NMC/NTC contracts did Tallon have to get rid of?
How much cap space did Tallon have to play with?

Two VERY important questions to answer in order to get an idea of how much more work had to be done within the Leaf organization.

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01-14-2013, 10:38 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I do not know how anyone can compare these two GM's performances when the situation that Tallon walked into was completely different that the situation that Burke had to deal with.

How many NMC/NTC contracts did Tallon have to get rid of?
How much cap space did Tallon have to play with?

Two VERY important questions to answer in order to get an idea of how much more work had to be done within the Leaf organization.
Burke had a ton of cap space to work with. He spent it on Komisarek, Beuchamin, Orr, Bozak, Connally, etc ...he also took on guys like Lomardi, Giguere and MacArthur etc.

None of these guys are in the Leaf's future, none of them helped them win in the present.

His coaching hire, Ron Wilson, was awful and he extended him when he should have been fired. That was a huge management blunder, and was again an example of Burke putting Burke before the team.

Tallon's UFA signings helped them win in the short term and make the playoffs (which Burke couldn't do in 4 years), his coaching hire helped them win, and he shored up his goaltending in the short term with one acquisition (Jose Theodore) while developing his goalie of the future.

Burke struck out with THREE goalie acquisitions meant to fix short term goalie issues (Gerber, Gustavsson, Guiguere)

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01-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Burke had a ton of cap space to work with. He spent it on Komisarek, Beuchamin, Orr, Bozak, Connally, etc ...he also took on guys like Lomardi, Giguere and MacArthur etc.

None of these guys are in the Leaf's future, none of them helped them win in the present.

His coaching hire, Ron Wilson, was awful and he extended him when he should have been fired. That was a huge management blunder, and was again an example of Burke putting Burke before the team.

Tallon's UFA signings helped them win in the short term and make the playoffs (which Burke couldn't do in 4 years), his coaching hire helped them win, and he shored up his goaltending in the short term with one acquisition (Jose Theodore) while developing his goalie of the future.

Burke struck out with THREE goalie acquisitions meant to fix short term goalie issues (Gerber, Gustavsson, Guiguere)
I wasn't going to talk about ALL is trades. The point I was trying to make was that it's quicker for a GM coming in and make changes if all it took was signing cheques without having to deal with shuffling assets. Until this coming summer the Leafs have NEVER had a ton of cap room unless contracts were moved first. Which makes signings a LOT more complicated.

But I'll humour you.

Komisarek & Beauchemin were good signings at the time according to every analyst who cared to voice their opinion. Komi turned out to be a dud on a run and gun style team but Beauchemin (who is still very good for the Ducks) netted us Lupul and Gardiner. Let's call this a 50/50 even though we got two very good players vs. 1 bad one.

Bozak was a free wallet out of college

Connelly was the best available centre at the time (sad but true) and was a short term 2yr deal which again expires this summer. Don't even mention Brad Richards because it was obvious that no-one would sign him other than the Rangers to play for his buddy Torts.

Lombardi got us Franson (whom I like) and let us get rid of Lebderp. Yes the same Lebderp that was a -3 in a 9-3 win over Atlanta.

Ron Wilson was NOT a Burke hire but he did extend him for one year at a time when they were in the playoff standings (I think it was 7th over all?)

Giguere let us get rid of Toskalol and Jason Blake. This was a FANTASTIC move.

Gerber was the only goalie available to sign (not trade) as a backup after they shut down Toskalol mid-season

Everyone was after Gustavson and frankly I think people are harder on him than they should be.

Anything else? I think you might be forgetting about a few trades/moves.

Point is, Tallon only had to write checks for the most part, asset management is a whole different ballgame. It's 10 times worse when you inherit bad contracts with a team full of crappy players because you can't flip crappy players into superstars but you can upgrade to mediocre players and then go from there as contracts expire. And guess what! This summer the Leafs are in a PERFECT spot to sign UFA's. It's too bad Burke will not be the GM to sign them.


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-14-2013 at 01:04 PM. Reason: not needed
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01-14-2013, 12:16 PM
  #172
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Point is, Tallon only had to write checks for the most part, asset management is a whole different ballgame. It's 10 times worse when you inherit bad contracts with a team full of crappy players because you can't flip crappy players into superstars but you can upgrade to mediocre players and then go from there as contracts expire. And guess what! This summer the Leafs are in a PERFECT spot to sign UFA's. It's too bad Burke will not be the GM to sign them.
It's quite simple - Tallon and Burke had similar mandates: build the team for the future, but also, make the playoffs and get the team competitive short term to rejuvenate the fanbase. Both had UFA money to spend and a greenlight to make tons of trades.

The guys Tallon wrote checks for performed well and helped his team make the playoffs.

The guys Burke wrote checks for performed poorly and did not help the Leafs make the playoffs.

I've not once said that all of Burke's trades or moves were bad, I've mentioned his good moves and trades. However, A few good trades doesn't make his tenure of success when judging his entire body of work.

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01-14-2013, 12:25 PM
  #173
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And guess what! This summer the Leafs are in a PERFECT spot to sign UFA's. It's too bad Burke will not be the GM to sign them.


...because building a team through 28+ year old UFAs on massive deals works so well...as if the Leafs are somehow guaranteed marquee UFAs when none ever sign there...

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01-14-2013, 12:31 PM
  #174
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...because building a team through 28+ year old UFAs on massive deals works so well...as if the Leafs are somehow guaranteed marquee UFAs when none ever sign there...
I'm not sure where you think you are going with this. Leafs have 13 signed players and about 25 million to spend. They have to sign players, and there is no better timing to do that than with one of the best UFA crops in a very long time. All they need is 1 or 2 this offseason to be that much better but that's besides the point because I'm not talking about winning the Stanley Cup after this UFA season if that was what you are implying by signing massive deals.

What do you expect them to do? draft and play 10 kids?

I mean seriously, look at this team:

http://www.capgeek.com/mapleleafs/archive/?year_id=2008

vs.

http://www.capgeek.com/panthers/archive/?year_id=2010

and try to convince me the amount of work to be done is the same. I'd say more than half the team Burke inherited is barely hanging to a NHL job and a handful haven't.


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01-14-2013, 12:37 PM
  #175
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I do not know how anyone can compare these two GM's performances when the situation that Tallon walked into was completely different that the situation that Burke had to deal with.

How many NMC/NTC contracts did Tallon have to get rid of?
How much cap space did Tallon have to play with?

Two VERY important questions to answer in order to get an idea of how much more work had to be done within the Leaf organization.
Seriously?

Tallon purged Horton, Ballard, Booth, Wideman, Allen off the top of my head.

Burke got rid of Kubina and Antropov and had a ton of cap space and spent it all on various shades of crap.

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