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Old
01-14-2013, 12:39 PM
  #176
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I wasn't going to talk about ALL is trades. The point I was trying to make was that it's quicker for a GM coming in and make changes if all it took was signing cheques without having to deal with shuffling assets. Until this coming summer the Leafs have NEVER had a ton of cap room unless contracts were moved first. Which makes signings a LOT more complicated.

But I'll humour you.

Komisarek & Beauchemin were good signings at the time according to every analyst who cared to voice their opinion. Komi turned out to be a dud on a run and gun style team but Beauchemin (who is still very good for the Ducks) netted us Lupul and Gardiner. Let's call this a 50/50 even though we got two very good players vs. 1 bad one.

Bozak was a free wallet out of college

Connelly was the best available centre at the time (sad but true) and was a short term 2yr deal which again expires this summer. Don't even mention Brad Richards because it was obvious that no-one would sign him other than the Rangers to play for his buddy Torts.

Lombardi got us Franson (whom I like) and let us get rid of Lebderp. Yes the same Lebderp that was a -3 in a 9-3 win over Atlanta.

Ron Wilson was NOT a Burke hire but he did extend him for one year at a time when they were in the playoff standings (I think it was 7th over all?)

Giguere let us get rid of Toskalol and Jason Blake. This was a FANTASTIC move.

Gerber was the only goalie available to sign (not trade) as a backup after they shut down Toskalol mid-season

Everyone was after Gustavson and frankly I think people are harder on him than they should be.

Anything else? I think you might be forgetting about a few trades/moves.

Point is, Tallon only had to write checks for the most part, asset management is a whole different ballgame. It's 10 times worse when you inherit bad contracts with a team full of crappy players because you can't flip crappy players into superstars but you can upgrade to mediocre players and then go from there as contracts expire. And guess what! This summer the Leafs are in a PERFECT spot to sign UFA's. It's too bad Burke will not be the GM to sign them.
Tallon cleared out the entire roster so he could sign a new time. He got lots of prospects for those players. Great asset management. Burke traded bad players for other bad players and signed more bad players on top of it. You have a long line of excuses lined up but Burke completely failed for Toronto. Given his LACK of quality signings, it's good for Toronto that Burke won't be the one tasked with signing new free agents.


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-14-2013 at 01:04 PM. Reason: qmep
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01-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #177
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Assets Burke created:
Sign Komisarek (money wasted, but he "counts" as an asset)
Sign Beachemin (Flip into Lupul and Gardiner, in retrospect AMAZING DEAL) (notice those 2 assets were acquired from a FA signing, and not by giving up any current assets
Sign Bozak (college FA)
Sign Gustovson (later released, and signed by detroit)
Sign Connelly (Center, who did not pan out, I actually really liked connelly from buffalo, sadly he has never been the same player)

Trade Hagman, Stajan, White for Phaneuf (I would call this a win for the most part as he is the captain now)
Trade Toskala, Blake for Giguere (Salary dump and goalie upgrade, worth it)
Trade Lombardi for Franson (Franson will be a useful defenseman this year, i bet he even makes the top 4)


For more details see a full listing of all trades here:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/09...-the-burke-era

For the most part I think Burke did a great job trading.

Imagine this deal for Kessel.

Actual Deal: Kessel for 1st (Tyler Seguin), 1st (Doug Hamilton) 2nd (Jared Knight)
or THIS deal: Kessel for 1st (Erik Gudbranson OR ryan johansen OR nino neiderreiter);
1st (Nathan belieau or sean couterier or sven beartschi) and Jared Knight

Now, if they had placed 3rd, 4th or 5th last, You probably call the Kessel trade a win.

He gambled, and he lost. He lost his job on this one trade AND that includes Kessel being one of the best players in the league. Gudbranson, Belieau and Knight would be a great trade for Kessel.

Burke was good, he got unlucky.

My plan would have just been to TANK for 4 years
and take edmonton's draft picks. But that is just as risky a gamble.... OH and I would have been fired in 2 years, not 4

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01-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
I'm not sure where you think you are going with this. Leafs have 13 signed players and about 25 million to spend. They have to sign players, and there is no better timing to do that than with one of the best UFA crops in a very long time.

What do you expect them to do? draft and play 10 kids?
When you sign Brad Richards to an overpaid UFA deal so you can pair him with an elite core you've built, it works, and could help put you over the top.

When you sign a bunch of UFAs (Redden, Gomez, Drury) to insta-build a team, thinking it will put you over the top, it fails miserably.

The Leafs are not built well. They have shoddy defense, no goaltending, no centers, and no offensive depth.

I'm not sure what UFAs you think the Leafs are going to sign, but say they were to sign Corey Perry this summer it would not come close to making them a cup contender.

I would say the Leafs, had it not been for Burke's mismangement- could at least be in a situation like Colorado or St. Louis, where yes, there was a lot of losing but they had a bunch of young kids on their team developing and now are in a good place.

Or, in a position like the Blue Jackets this year where after another debacle of a year, they at least have a fresh roster filled mostly with young players with upside.

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01-14-2013, 01:04 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Seriously?

Tallon purged Horton, Ballard, Booth, Wideman, Allen off the top of my head.

Burke got rid of Kubina and Antropov and had a ton of cap space and spent it all on various shades of crap.
If Tallon had 12million in cap space available then he had WAY more to work with than Burke did the moment Tallon walked in the door.

Kubina and Antropov freed up only 7mill and HAD to be moved first.

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01-14-2013, 01:16 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
If Tallon had 12million in cap space available then he had WAY more to work with than Burke did the moment Tallon walked in the door.

Kubina and Antropov freed up only 7mill and HAD to be moved first.

Don't act like moving Nik Antropov was some amazing feat of general managing - he was an impending UFA that they dealt for a pick at the deadline.

And then, the 4 year deal UFA he signed with Atlanta/Winnipeg was for $4.06 million a year.

Burke gave TIM CONNALLY a 2-year UFA deal that is $4.75 million a year, which is more than Antropov and he is obviously WAY less productive center.

So really, if the goal was making the playoffs the last couple years, and Antropov was willing to take a 4 year deal at only $4 million per...clearly Burke should have just resigned him. Considering he was never able to replace him, and the centers he brought in, Bozak, Lombardi, and Connally, were all worse (and Lombardi and Connally were similar cap hits). Connally and Antropov are both UFA after this year.


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01-14-2013, 01:37 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Don't act like moving Nik Antropov was some amazing feat of general managing - he was an impending UFA that they dealt for a pick at the deadline.

And then, the 4 year deal UFA he signed with Atlanta/Winnipeg was for $4.06 million a year.

Burke gave TIM CONNALLY a 2-year UFA deal that is $4.75 million a year, which is more than Antropov and he is obviously WAY less productive center.

So really, if the goal was making the playoffs the last couple years, and Antropov was willing to take a 4 year deal at only $4 million per...clearly Burke should have just resigned him. Considering he was never able to replace him, and the centers he brought in, Bozak, Lombardi, and Connally, were all worse (and Lombardi and Connally were similar cap hits). Connally and Antropov are both UFA after this year.
I never said trading Antropov was an amazing feat, I was replying to the other poster specifically pointing out those two trades. Don't that stop you from rambling on though.

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01-14-2013, 01:47 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Seriously?

Tallon purged Horton, Ballard, Booth, Wideman, Allen off the top of my head.

Burke got rid of Kubina and Antropov and had a ton of cap space and spent it all on various shades of crap.
Errr I am not sure you are making valid points at all with your argument.

The guys that Tallon "purged", namely Horton, Booth, Wideman are all solid NHL players, with Horton playing a significant role on a top team in the league (concussions aside which is neither the fault of Florida or Boston).

Burke moved out Stajan, Poni, Antropov, Hagman, Mayers, etc. Most of these guys are fringe NHLers who should have never been on any team, and many aren't on any teams anymore.

Your argument is actually counter productive because in this sense I would say Burke did a much better job than Tallon.

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01-14-2013, 02:08 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Errr I am not sure you are making valid points at all with your argument.

The guys that Tallon "purged", namely Horton, Booth, Wideman are all solid NHL players, with Horton playing a significant role on a top team in the league (concussions aside which is neither the fault of Florida or Boston).

Burke moved out Stajan, Poni, Antropov, Hagman, Mayers, etc. Most of these guys are fringe NHLers who should have never been on any team, and many aren't on any teams anymore.

Your argument is actually counter productive because in this sense I would say Burke did a much better job than Tallon.
This is the point I was trying to make in my previous post where I posted the teams Tallon and Burke inherited. 14 of the 35 players on that roster do not play in the NHL anymore and with exception of 2 maybe 3 players the rest are barely holding on to their jobs and making peanuts.

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01-14-2013, 02:08 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Errr I am not sure you are making valid points at all with your argument.

The guys that Tallon "purged", namely Horton, Booth, Wideman are all solid NHL players, with Horton playing a significant role on a top team in the league (concussions aside which is neither the fault of Florida or Boston).

Burke moved out Stajan, Poni, Antropov, Hagman, Mayers, etc. Most of these guys are fringe NHLers who should have never been on any team, and many aren't on any teams anymore.

Your argument is actually counter productive because in this sense I would say Burke did a much better job than Tallon.
Burke move out Stajan Poni, Antropov, Mayers, etc.

And he replaced them with the same type of expendable players:

MacArthur, Komisarek, Steckel, Maclement, Lombardi, Connally, Bozak, Armstrong, Orr, Brown, etc.

Yes - Tallon recognized Horton, Wideman, Booth were solid players that weren't in his long term plans with their contracts. So, yes he dealt them and got good value and picks.

BUT - unlike Burke, he replaced those guys with PRODUCTIVE players like Fleishman, Versteeg (both he had better offensive seasons than Booth and Horton) Bergenheim and Campbell. And, he didn't sacrifice and #1 picks or any future prospects to make his playoff push (which was successful)or fill his current roster.

So if your argument is that Burke did a good job of purging the roster of garbage players...well, 4 years into his tenure, the roster is still pretty much expendable garbage players outside of Phaneuf, Kessel, Gardiner, JvR, and Lupul. And Kessel and Lupul are nearing UFA status, and Lupul is almost 30.


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01-14-2013, 02:16 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Burke move out Stajan Poni, Antropov, Mayers, etc.

And he replaced them with the same type of expendable players:

MacArthur, Komisarek, Steckel, Maclement, Lombardi, Connally, Bozak, Armstrong, Orr, Brown, etc.

Yes - Tallon recognized Horton, Wideman, Booth were solid players that weren't in his long term plans with their contracts. So, yes he dealt them and got good value and picks.

BUT - unlike Burke, he replaced those guys with PRODUCTIVE players like Fleishman, Versteeg (both he had better offensive seasons than Booth and Horton) Bergenheim and Campbell. And, he didn't sacrifice and #1 picks or any future prospects to make his playoff push (which was successful)or fill his current roster.

So if your argument is that Burke did a good job of purging the roster of garbage players...well, 4 years into his tenure, the roster is still pretty much expendable garbage players outside of Phaneuf, Kessel, Gardiner, and LupulJVR, Ashton, Biggs, Percy, plus other prospects.

All of his trades were amazing deals for the Leafs, however, his UFA signings were horrible at best. Ask anyone and they will agree that the Leafs had nothing in their system or roster, to having a better outlook going forward.

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01-14-2013, 02:25 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
All of his trades were amazing deals for the Leafs, however, his UFA signings were horrible at best. Ask anyone and they will agree that the Leafs had nothing in their system or roster, to having a better outlook going forward.

The Beauchamin for Gardiner deal and the Phanuef deal were clear wins. That does not make his 4-year tenure as GM a success. Sure he has made some solid moves, but judging the whole body of work, it was pretty awful. Not to get into the Kessel deal, but obviously, that was not an "amazing deal" for the Leafs.

Also - comparing Burke to an even more terrible regime I don't feel is valid either. I mean, as a Blue Jacket fan, of course, Scott Howson has been better than the disaster that was Doug Maclean. Does that mean Scott Howson is a good GM? Not even close. Any GM will look good when compared to pre-Burke leafs or pre-Howson Jackets or the old Atlanta regime or Pierre Gauthier. But you need to set your standards higher, especially when you are a cap team with unlimited resources like the Leafs.

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01-14-2013, 02:31 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
The Beauchamin for Gardiner deal and the Phanuef deal were clear wins. That does not make his 4-year tenure as GM a success. Sure he has made some solid moves, but judging the whole body of work, it was pretty awful. Not to get into the Kessel deal, but obviously, that was not an "amazing deal" for the Leafs.

Also - comparing Burke to an even more terrible regime I don't feel is valid either. I mean, as a Blue Jacket fan, of course, Scott Howson has been better than the disaster that was Doug Maclean. Does that mean Scott Howson is a good GM? Not even close. Any GM will look good when compared to pre-Burke leafs or pre-Howson Jackets or the old Atlanta regime or Pierre Gauthier. But you need to set your standards higher, especially when you are a cap team with unlimited resources like the Leafs.
If you mortgage the future in the way that past GM's had done with the Leafs than the only way you can do better is by building up your prospects. All of the successful teams from 2006-2012 have had a youth movement and it takes time to build that. I will not fault Brian Burke because of his predecessors, but when this team starts to build success again than I will attribute some of that to Burke.

Its an easy task to build a team within 2 or 3 years.

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01-14-2013, 02:38 PM
  #188
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Why are we acting like Burke inherited a complete pile of crap?

Kulemin
Grabovski
Schenn
Gunnarsson
Kaberle
White
Reimer
Stalberg
Tlusty

Then players like Hagman, Stajan, Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Kubina who at the time all had 2nd round deadline value give or take, all of which aside from Kubina Burke capitalized on.

Then tons of cap space. All he really needed was to figure out an identity and stick to it. Instead he threw together a bunch of pylons on D, creampuffs on O, no goaltending and a coach that didn't know how to use either and stuck with it for 4 years.

He could have probably had a top 3 pick in 2009 if he didn't claim Gerber off of waivers. He still got a high pick and botched it about as badly as he could have. He could have had Kessel and a late 1st rounder for Kaberle and the Kadri pick ffs!

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01-14-2013, 02:45 PM
  #189
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IHeartZherdev, I really don't think you and a few others have an appreciation as to how bad the Leafs were when Burke got here and fair enough, neither did Burke. There was literally NOTHING here for him to do anything with and what's worse he had to get rid of them in order to purge the Blue and White disease. I know it sounds stupid but a complete purge of any players of that team had to be done to change the mindset and attitude on this team.

I'll admit, some players brought in weren't ideal and maybe a couple were a step back in the position but in the latter case it was still a step forward because it was a new body. It was that bad around here.

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01-14-2013, 02:57 PM
  #190
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I hear you - if anything, as a Blue Jackets fan, I can sympathize with what the Leafs fans have gone through the last 4 years.

But Burke was a disaster, I honestly cannot fathom how Toronto fans could defend him. Ownership is also at fault though if they were pushing a "make the playoffs now" mandate

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01-14-2013, 03:17 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I hear you - if anything, as a Blue Jackets fan, I can sympathize with what the Leafs fans have gone through the last 4 years.

But Burke was a disaster, I honestly cannot fathom how Toronto fans could defend him. Ownership is also at fault though if they were pushing a "make the playoffs now" mandate
IMHO the team today is 100x better than what we had when he got here. Could the Leafs be 200x better? Maybe, but that would mean having a crystal ball to see what other GM's would have done in the same situation and hindsight is 20/20. I wouldn't call him a disaster.

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01-14-2013, 03:58 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Assets Burke created:


For the most part I think Burke did a great job trading.

Imagine this deal for Kessel.

Actual Deal: Kessel for 1st (Tyler Seguin), 1st (Doug Hamilton) 2nd (Jared Knight)
or THIS deal: Kessel for 1st (Erik Gudbranson OR ryan johansen OR nino neiderreiter);
1st (Nathan belieau or sean couterier or sven beartschi) and Jared Knight

Now, if they had placed 3rd, 4th or 5th last, You probably call the Kessel trade a win.

He gambled, and he lost. He lost his job on this one trade AND that includes Kessel being one of the best players in the league. Gudbranson, Belieau and Knight would be a great trade for Kessel.

Burke was good, he got unlucky.

My plan would have just been to TANK for 4 years
and take edmonton's draft picks. But that is just as risky a gamble.... OH and I would have been fired in 2 years, not 4
How come a Leafs team desperate for goaltending got nothing out of Giggy, who then went on to be lights out for Colorado?

They got nothing out of Stalberg, who was dealt to Chicago for Kris Versteeg. Stalberg had a career year in Chicago (22 goals) and Toronto shipped out Versteeg...who also just had a career year in Florida (23 goals).

Leafs got nothing out of Jiri Tlusty, and shipped him out and he also just had a career year - 17 goals and he has a role in Carolina.

I know they got picks for Versteeg, and Ron Wilson was terrible, but shoving three young guys out and the door and watching them all basically become 20 goal scorers is a bad look for any GM, especially one who is managing a team that needs young talent and scoring.

As far as your Kessel analysis, by any of those potential examples you give - it's still a massive failure for the Leafs. Because you weren't "one Kessel" away from Cup contention, and now, you're in a situation where you're going to have to commit long term to him at like $7 million to keep him, when you could have had promising young talent on entry level deals developing into strong NHL talent.

The Jackets had Nash for all those years, one of the best players in the NHL - it got them nowhere. Same with Atlanta and Kovalchuk. It's only worth sacrificing that kind of price if you are one or two pieces away from contention


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01-14-2013, 04:02 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
How come a Leafs team desperate for goaltending got nothing out of Giggy, who then went on to be lights out for Colorado?

They got nothing out of Stalberg, who was dealt to Chicago for Kris Versteeg. Stalberg had a career year in Chicago (22 goals) and Toronto shipped out Versteeg...who also just had a career year in Florida (23 goals).

Leafs got nothing out of Jiri Tlusty, and shipped him out and he also just had a career year - 17 goals and he has a role in Carolina.

I know they got picks for Versteeg, and Ron Wilson was terrible, but shoving three young guys out and the door and watching them all basically become 20 goal scorers is a bad look for any GM, especially one who is managing a team that needs young talent and scoring.

As far as your Kessel analysis, by any of those potential examples you give - it's still a massive failure for the Leafs. Because you weren't "one Kessel" away from Cup contention, and now, you're in a situation where you're going to have to commit long term to him at like $7 million to keep him, when you could have had promising young talent on entry level deals developing into strong NHL talent.
Why stop there? You could go back 30 years and constantly find players who leave Toronto and become stars...search for Larry Murphy.

This phenomena is not isolated the Burke era.

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01-14-2013, 04:07 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
Why stop there? You could go back 30 years and constantly find players who leave Toronto and become stars...search for Larry Murphy.

This phenomena is not isolated the Burke era.
The thread is titled "Value of: Brian Burke" after he just got fired. I think it's relevant to showcase all of his misses, considering the lone defense seemed to be that he is an "elite trader" - I think a rebuilding team traded away 3 guys in their early 20's who go on to be 20 goal scorers is proof that he doesn't win every trade

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01-14-2013, 05:43 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Why are we acting like Burke inherited a complete pile of crap?

Kulemin
Grabovski
Schenn
Gunnarsson
Kaberle
White
Reimer
Stalberg
Tlusty


Then players like Hagman, Stajan, Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Kubina who at the time all had 2nd round deadline value give or take, all of which aside from Kubina Burke capitalized on.

Then tons of cap space. All he really needed was to figure out an identity and stick to it. Instead he threw together a bunch of pylons on D, creampuffs on O, no goaltending and a coach that didn't know how to use either and stuck with it for 4 years.

He could have probably had a top 3 pick in 2009 if he didn't claim Gerber off of waivers. He still got a high pick and botched it about as badly as he could have. He could have had Kessel and a late 1st rounder for Kaberle and the Kadri pick ffs!

Jesus, do you people even read what you post?

You are citing Stalberg and Tlusty now as evidence that Burke didn't inherit crap? If those guys are on your list of the top 9 players Burke got you are proving the point he inherited generally trash.

Kaberle, for all his "puck moving" skills was actually more of a drain on the PP because of his inability to ever shoot (ask Boston fans) and everyone knew he was going to get a contract he didn't really deserve.

He turned Schenn into JVR, which frankly I consider a pretty decent win on our end.

Kulemin, Gunnar and White are all very solid players, but they aren't the start of a dynasty exactly either...

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