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Subban to DET

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:14 PM
  #51
last_sd
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I wouldn't trade Smith as part of the package.
Yes Subban is better than Smith now but I want to see how Smith can do as regular.

MON and DET aren't really good trading partner

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:18 PM
  #52
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
36 point Number 1 dman. Good luck with that. Subban sucked last season. He has a long way to go to be a number 1 or a franchise dman that MTL thinks he can become. But I was speaking strictly value.

If you want to keep a dman keep a dman. The OP's proposal (value wise) puts you in the discussion for quite a few top defenseman better than Subban.
So a young defenceman who is already 1 of only 15 defencemen in the entire NHL to play over 23 minutes per game, plays against the opposition's BEST lines, AND gets over 30 points, AND gets over 100 hits, AND gets over 100 blocked shots, AND draws more penalties than almost every other defenceman in the league, AND plays in every single situation possible (ES, PP, PK), has a "long way to go to be a number 1"?

You might want to actually learn a bit more about the player you are attempting to diminish the value of. You could state that the value in the offered trade is too much for your organization to give up due to your team's needs, and I would understand that. However, to say that Subban is not worth a package like that because "quite a few" of the pieces in that proposal will become better than Subban is so wrong it is beyond silly. To further state that Subban has a long way to go before becoming a number one defenceman clearly shows you know nothing about hockey OR about Subban...if not both.

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:21 PM
  #53
IceDaddy
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
So you want a top six forward, a potential top six forward, and a potential top pairing defender for a current top pairing defender?

Uhh yea, thats how trades work in the real world. Want a stud now its gonna hurt to get him.....

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombi View Post


Filppula
Nyquist
Jurco
Ouellet
2nd 2013



Subban
Red wings fan here, Wow do you overvalue Subban. Lets be honest, this package could get us any player in the league.

Filppula is a #1 top line forward right now! (66pts in 81 games)
Nyquist is easily our "top prospect" - pt per game AHL. (he is all potential right now)
Jurco is our next "youngest" "top prospect" i.e. maybe the next datsyuk (he is all potential right now)
Ouellet was on team canada as a defenseman, so he provides fair potential to make the NHL one day.

I like Subban, I think he is very good BUT...

This package implies you are ready to sign a contract for Subban at 4 years at 7Mil per year. Are you ready to do that??? If you are not, you do not get this package in return.

You also have to understand how detroit works to trade with detroit.
We do not trade prospects. We develop prospects. Our team only trades young players once they FAIL to make the team after a few years of trying. (that also means they have pretty much no trade value, and we give them away for a chance to make other NHL teams)

We have very often however traded draft choices for NHL talent (1st for Quincey as an example)

We are very happy to keep Jurco, Ouellet, and Nyquivst and see how they pan out.

I will bet you Smith does alot better than everyone here thinks. I would just stick with Smith as our new defender. We will not pay a "high price" for new players because honestly, the Red Wings no longer have organizational depth that affords them to make this kind of trade. It would kill the team. Its very possible our team is on the way down anyway, last time our "crappy prospects" churned out Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Maybe in 3-4 years you will all know the names of Jurco and Nyquivst, and maybe not, maybe detroit falls and has an opportunity to draft better. But in either case, we would never make this trade, even though Subban is a good player (time will prove if he turns out to be as good as you think, its too early IMO)

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I wouldn't trade Perry straight up for Subban, even if he was signed to an extension. I'd want someone younger, it's all about the future for the Habs.
I love Subban. I am a HUGE Habs fan.

Subban could not land Perry and I would happily add to Subban to get Perry and then drive Subban to the airport. That is a foolish thing to say.

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I love Subban. I am a HUGE Habs fan.

Subban could not land Perry and I would happily add to Subban to get Perry and then drive Subban to the airport. That is a foolish thing to say.
I usually agree with everything you say but not in this. Subban only played two seasons and he still looked good on a last place team which was pretty much half his career at this point (ie. small sample size) but backed by an incredible rookie campaign and playoffs showing each of those two years. It would be incredibly shortsighted to deal him away right now, and Perry would not be an acceptable target especially since we would have to add in the deal.

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Old
01-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
So a young defenceman who is already 1 of only 15 defencemen in the entire NHL to play over 23 minutes per game, plays against the opposition's BEST lines, AND gets over 30 points, AND gets over 100 hits, AND gets over 100 blocked shots, AND draws more penalties than almost every other defenceman in the league, AND plays in every single situation possible (ES, PP, PK), has a "long way to go to be a number 1"?

You might want to actually learn a bit more about the player you are attempting to diminish the value of. You could state that the value in the offered trade is too much for your organization to give up due to your team's needs, and I would understand that. However, to say that Subban is not worth a package like that because "quite a few" of the pieces in that proposal will become better than Subban is so wrong it is beyond silly. To further state that Subban has a long way to go before becoming a number one defenceman clearly shows you know nothing about hockey OR about Subban...if not both.
Subban is a great player but you guys are ignoring some obvious holes in his game. When he broke out in the playoffs a few years back he played a style of game that does not age well. He played so aggressive and skated so fast that he caught people by surprise.

Three problems with that.

First when players adjusted to his style he did not reach the potential people thought he would. I expected him to be a 50 point number 1 after that playoffs like everyone else. But once people expected him to run around super aggressive he became predictable.

Second, as he ages and gets injured he will inevitably slow down a bit and will probably be prone to losing his confidence and thus aggression. I am not sure his style will translate after a hit in speed/confidence.

Third, that style of play is very dependent on having a very solid competent defensive pair. Not to down play Subban but he needs a good solid Defensive D to cover for his aggression. IMO that hurts his worth a bit as a "Complete" defenseman. If you want to talk about a riverboat gambler Smith (and most cocky rookies can do the same thing). Eventually they risk coming back down to earth or losing that confidence.

So if you are going to call Subban a number 1 defender I would counter he is not a very good one, yet. Certainty no better than a Campbell or Boyle. He is and will be a step behind the Weber, Chara, Keith, Doughty etc. He is a flawed number 1 with tremendous upside.

Right now I am not sure I would even put him in the top 20. Lucky for you he is 22 so hopefully he puts it all together and becomes the top 5 dman he has the potential to be. You guys are way to hostile. He is a potential Franchise Dman (no more/ no less).

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01-14-2013, 12:47 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I love Subban. I am a HUGE Habs fan.

Subban could not land Perry and I would happily add to Subban to get Perry and then drive Subban to the airport. That is a foolish thing to say.
Perry is not going to turn the Habs into a contender and we'll end up struggling somewhere between mediocrity and decency for the next 5 years until the next GM comes in and blows it up and starts over. We're not 1 piece away from being good, especially if we trade Subban in the process.

At the most we'll gain 10 - 20 goals a season by adding Perry and whoever replaces Subban will cost us that many goals, easy.

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01-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I wouldn't trade Perry straight up for Subban, even if he was signed to an extension. I'd want someone younger, it's all about the future for the Habs.
If it is about the future, why even trade him?

In all truth, if I am MTL, and you want young players, try trades that involve dumping one or more of the following: Plekanic (30), Gionta (33), Cole (34), Bourque (31) (all good players with some trade value)

And Keep Desharnais (26), Pacciorety (24), Subban (23), Eller (23), Weber (24)

MTL to me is a team with very good heart, but can they compete this year? If yes... keep all the players and try to add by dealing AWAY prospects.

But if MTL needs more talent before competing, I would suggesting dumping the old players to competing teams that would be willing to give up some of THEIR prospects.

Toronto might be a pretty bad team right now, but they are all really young, and its hard to disagree with their team age mix.

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Old
01-14-2013, 01:03 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Uhh yea, thats how trades work in the real world. Want a stud now its gonna hurt to get him.....
No, that's how teams end up screwing up their whole franchise.

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01-14-2013, 01:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Subban is a great player but you guys are ignoring some obvious holes in his game. When he broke out in the playoffs a few years back he played a style of game that does not age well. He played so aggressive and skated so fast that he caught people by surprise.

Three problems with that.

First when players adjusted to his style he did not reach the potential people thought he would. I expected him to be a 50 point number 1 after that playoffs like everyone else. But once people expected him to run around super aggressive he became predictable.

Second, as he ages and gets injured he will inevitably slow down a bit and will probably be prone to losing his confidence and thus aggression. I am not sure his style will translate after a hit in speed/confidence.

Third, that style of play is very dependent on having a very solid competent defensive pair. Not to down play Subban but he needs a good solid Defensive D to cover for his aggression. IMO that hurts his worth a bit as a "Complete" defenseman. If you want to talk about a riverboat gambler Smith (and most cocky rookies can do the same thing). Eventually they risk coming back down to earth or losing that confidence.

So if you are going to call Subban a number 1 defender I would counter he is not a very good one, yet. Certainty no better than a Campbell or Boyle. He is and will be a step behind the Weber, Chara, Keith, Doughty etc. He is a flawed number 1 with tremendous upside.

Right now I am not sure I would even put him in the top 20. Lucky for you he is 22 so hopefully he puts it all together and becomes the top 5 dman he has the potential to be. You guys are way to hostile. He is a potential Franchise Dman (no more/ no less).
I'm scratching my head at this type of commentary. The best thing about Subban is his ability to learn and develop his game, how quickly he adapts to what is thrown his way. Plus, his motor runs at that speed comfortably, in time age will catch up with him but that's true of everyone and his ability to adapt will allow him to mellow out naturally. But, his motor will always beat that little bit faster then his peers.

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01-14-2013, 01:39 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I'm scratching my head at this type of commentary. The best thing about Subban is his ability to learn and develop his game, how quickly he adapts to what is thrown his way. Plus, his motor runs at that speed comfortably, in time age will catch up with him but that's true of everyone and his ability to adapt will allow him to mellow out naturally. But, his motor will always beat that little bit faster then his peers.
You watch him more than I do so, maybe your right. I never got the fact that Subban was a quick adapter. I actually got the opposite. What I see in Subban is a player that reacts so quickly and so confidently that the opposing team is terrified about what he is going to do.

He is not predicting what his opponent will do but rather forcing his opponent to attempt to react to him. Kinda like a high pressure penalty kill. That is what strikes me as being so impressive about him. That is what makes him a potential franchise player. As long as he stays unpredictable (Is he going to hit me, is he going to rush the puck, is he going to shoot, is he going to deke), healthy, and confident his skills should carry him. If he looses his health, unpredictability, or confidence he will just be an average top 4. It is extremely common for a young player to become predictable and that would be my biggest fear for him.

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01-14-2013, 02:28 PM
  #63
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One of the worst trades i have ever seen.

Is P.K. Subban supposed to be the black Bobby Orr?

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01-14-2013, 02:36 PM
  #64
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value is probably close, but there is no incentive for Montreal...

organization already is stockpiled in mid-level fwds, both NHL & prospect.

none of Nyquist/Filpula/Jurco/ouellet have enough likelihood of being the impact player Subban already is for Montreal (forget about what he has the potential to be in 2-3 years).

You don't trade minute eating top-pairing 23 year old dmen for packages like that unless you're in need of an organizational depth overhaul. Habs have enough solid depth, the need is at the higher end, which Subban fills.

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01-14-2013, 03:16 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
value is probably close, but there is no incentive for Montreal...

organization already is stockpiled in mid-level fwds, both NHL & prospect.

none of Nyquist/Filpula/Jurco/ouellet have enough likelihood of being the impact player Subban already is for Montreal (forget about what he has the potential to be in 2-3 years).

You don't trade minute eating top-pairing 23 year old dmen for packages like that unless you're in need of an organizational depth overhaul. Habs have enough solid depth, the need is at the higher end, which Subban fills.
Filppula had more points last year than anyone on Montreal

just saying

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01-14-2013, 03:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
Filppula had more points last year than anyone on Montreal

just saying
that really, really doesn't say much...

28 year old player with 1 season above 40points, while playing his whole career with the Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom led Red Wings... a team that 4x in his 7 year career was top 4 in the league in scoring...

sorry, not gonna sell Flippula's impact as a point producing player by virtue of his 1 season over 40 points.

and I think he's an excellent player... would love to have him on the habs, don't get me wrong.

But he's just not anywhere near the value to a team that Subban is.


even if the "value" of the package offered is worth more than Subban, for Montreal & it's current situation, adding those pieces aren't worth creating the hole Subban's void would create (unless, perhaps, it were part of a larger 3-way deal, where another top-pairing young dman wound up in montreal in the process... which would be lateral and thus still unecessary/

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Old
01-14-2013, 04:04 PM
  #67
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lol at not including a 1st. wow.


not a habs fan.

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Old
01-14-2013, 04:27 PM
  #68
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sorry, not gonna sell Flippula's impact as a point producing player by virtue of his 1 season over 40 points.
He put up 35 in 55 games two years ago. In full seasons if expect his numbers to float between 50-70 points over the next few years.

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01-14-2013, 05:09 PM
  #69
ricky0034
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
that really, really doesn't say much...

28 year old player with 1 season above 40points, while playing his whole career with the Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom led Red Wings... a team that 4x in his 7 year career was top 4 in the league in scoring...

sorry, not gonna sell Flippula's impact as a point producing player by virtue of his 1 season over 40 points.

and I think he's an excellent player... would love to have him on the habs, don't get me wrong.

But he's just not anywhere near the value to a team that Subban is.


even if the "value" of the package offered is worth more than Subban, for Montreal & it's current situation, adding those pieces aren't worth creating the hole Subban's void would create (unless, perhaps, it were part of a larger 3-way deal, where another top-pairing young dman wound up in montreal in the process... which would be lateral and thus still unecessary/
he's always been viewed as having a lot of untapped potential though

also of note is that last season he got to play on the Wing instead of as a Center

the 66 points he got last year was far from a mere fluke,he was on a line with Zetterberg all year and for huge chunks of the year it was Filppula carrying that line

as for comparing him to Subban okay sure I can accept that(although i'd disagree that there's as massive a gap as you seem to be implying)

one concern with Filppula is that he's a UFA after this year though

in any case he's definitely not a "mid-level fwd"

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Old
01-14-2013, 05:19 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
He put up 35 in 55 games two years ago. In full seasons if expect his numbers to float between 50-70 points over the next few years.
35 in 55 is 52 in 82. That's fringe 1st line and not close to 66.

It was a huge up year for him on ES. He was the biggest beneficiary of the rampage the Wings top six went on there last season. The previous 3 years he's been pretty much your average to below average 2nd line guy in scoring there. Andrei Kostitsyn is comparable to his other years.

I'd highly doubt he's fundamentally changed as a player at 28. More likely he just had a year everything broke his way.

Expecting him to repeat last season, especially without Datsyuk or Zetterberg is highly dubious. Regular 50 point guy is the highest I'd consider him.

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01-14-2013, 05:39 PM
  #71
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Not interested in Filppula, Jurco isn't worth much at this point. Ouellet and Nyqvist are interesting, but not nearly enough to get Subban.

One thing is for sure though, if Subban goes to Detroit, Smith is coming our way. I doubt you can around that unless you overpay big time.

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