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Old
01-14-2013, 03:31 PM
  #251
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Steve Sullivan would be helpful, if we still had him.
True story. But we don't. I like the idea of putting Letang in that spot and shifting Sid to the point where Letang was. Looks like they did that with Neal instead at today's practice, with Sid playing Neal's old spot. The problem we have is that Sid, Neal and Geno really all belong in the same 2 spots since they are all LHS and none of them have the big slapshot to really excel at the point.

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01-14-2013, 03:35 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
You used the stat to compare Engelland's offensive production to Letang's offensive production. That is ridiculous. Paul Martin is a MUCH better offensive player than Deryk Engelland.

To support that, here are my stats. Engelland scores about .19 points per game compared to Martin's .39.
The stats you are providing are actually of considerably less value since you are grouping several sets of data with unequal frequency distributions into one data point. The stats that you quoted were at least normalized. Engelland gets less ES time and almost zero pp time so Martin has a huge advantage to score more points overall.

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01-14-2013, 03:39 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
You used the stat to compare Engelland's offensive production to Letang's offensive production. That is ridiculous. Engelland scores about .19 points per game compared to Martin's .39. Paul Martin is a MUCH better offensive player than Deryk Engelland.
Engelland gets NO/ZERO/ZILCH pp time. You don't even factor that in. He's getting zero points on the bench while Martin is getting them at twice the rate on the PP vs 5v5. Martin also averages more 5v5 ice time / game than Engelland. You aren't comparing apples to apples.

Martin has many more opportunities to earn points than Engelland. That means you can't compare his PPG. This is general rule of thumb for comparing ANY players by PPG. It totally lacks context on how they are utilized. You can't ever compare PPG and expect to get reliable results. A "game" is not a standard unit. A "game" is drastically different to Crosby compared to Adams with respect to not only how many minutes they play, but to what type of minutes they play.

pts/60min of 5v5 or 5v4 time is standardizing the players and removing any coach bias from the counting stats. You are comparing "rates" at this point.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...5+17+18+19+20#

Funny how even though Martin averages more pts/game he doesn't score at a higher rate/min of ice time compared to Engelland. These "rates" are fairly consistent year over year.

I wonder what would happen if Engelland was given the same opportunities as Martin? The rates are what would separate the players given equal minutes.

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01-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
It's not a training camp. Not a whole lot of time to **** around. If Despres isn't making the team then fair enough. But like Rowdy said, at least put a guy next to Niskaen with a friggin' point shot. Dupuis would be a better option, sad as that is.

I'm not giving DB an inch. If people find that annoying, you're welcome to say so.
He is what scares me more than our iffy defense.

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01-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
The stats you are providing are actually of considerably less value since you are grouping several sets of data with unequal frequency distributions into one data point. The stats that you quoted were at least normalized. Engelland gets less ES time and almost zero pp time so Martin has a huge advantage to score more points overall.
why does Martin get more ice time and power play time than Engelland? Because Martin is better than Engelland. Stats can't tell the whole story in a situation like this.

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01-14-2013, 03:43 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Steve Sullivan would be helpful, if we still had him.
Ughhh good lord, no. Of all the players we traded away or didn't re-sign he is the guy I will miss the least.

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01-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
why does Martin get more ice time and power play time than Engelland? Because Martin is better than Engelland. Stats can't tell the whole story in a situation like this.
Truth, PM is def. in my dog house, but if it comes down to Martin or DE handling pucks at the point its martin 10/10.

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01-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Geno Machino View Post
actually DK is usually pretty good with his sources within the Pens & as a columnist that is his job to stir up some ****.
I would humbly suggest you spend some time researching what the actual job of journalists is, even if they're sports journalists. He's not a talk show host, he's a sports reporter. And like Rossi and most of others in your town, a seemingly incompetent one.


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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
We don't really need anymore evidence than we already have....

There hasn't been a competent Pens beat guy who understands the game and reports it with integrity since Tom McMillian left.
Correct.


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"Simon, we are disappointed in your lack of dedication, so you're not invited to training camp"

*Arrives at training camp and gets a look with the Pens #1 defenseman.



I'm glad it's the reporter looking like an ass and not Elmer. He's making it, *****es... YAH!


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Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
All this talk about Tangradi's skating and no specifics makes me sad.

Since I spent a good portion of yesterday's practice watching Tangradi I will give it a go. Those true students of the game, feel free to correct me if necessary.

Start with the positives:
Tangradi has excellent top-end speed for a big man, especially a 230 pounder. At speed he has good "edges", and can make tight turns and quick stops, hence he is also reasonably agile. At speed on the rush, he has no problem keeping up with our world class skating franchise Centers.

Now the negatives: Tangradi has issues when not at speed. He is not very agile or quick with his stop and start skating in tight spaces, and he also has a ways to go with his lateral aglity. It usually takes several strides for him to really get going. The thing that pains me, is just how awkward he looks when not skating with any kind of speed and trying to play the puck. I think this draws a lot of critiscm from less informed posters.

So how did I do pinch hitting for the Geno Machine guys?
Mistuh Galla-bini... that is a well-thought-out, lucid and intelligent observation. OverRULED.



(Just kidding about the overruled part... I'll take your word for it as it matches my impressions of him skating in games. Ineffective when stuck down in the corners, more effective when on the move.)

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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Martin and Dupuis have no business on a PP unit. Especially when there are better options. Same old ****.
It is hard to imagine how a coach thinks those two should ever be on a PP, even in camp. Talk about an offensive skill vacuum. Those guys only convert when someone else creates the offensive opportunity for them / they're left open (basically).

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01-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Let's not let Dejan off the hook. He reported it in his chat and then wrote an article that contradicted what he previously said (only he never admitted the discrepancy).
I'm not letting him off the hook, though.

If he wrote that story based on that source, which I'm assuming he did, because that was the only other person who reported it, it's just as bad.

Maybe reporters will start reading HF for stories. Just in case, in the immortal words of Eric Godard "you suck, Rossi!"

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01-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Engelland gets NO/ZERO/ZILCH pp time. You don't even factor that in. He's getting zero points on the bench while Martin is getting them at twice the rate on the PP vs 5v5. Martin also averages more 5v5 ice time / game than Engelland. You aren't comparing apples to apples.

Martin has many more opportunities to earn points than Engelland. That means you can't compare his PPG. This is general rule of thumb for comparing ANY players by PPG. It totally lacks context on how they are utilized. You can't ever compare PPG and expect to get reliable results. A "game" is not a standard unit. A "game" is drastically different to Crosby compared to Adams with respect to not only how many minutes they play, but to what type of minutes they play.

pts/60min of 5v5 or 5v4 time is standardizing the players and removing any coach bias from the counting stats. You are comparing "rates" at this point.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...5+17+18+19+20#

Funny how even though Martin averages more pts/game he doesn't score at a higher rate/min of ice time compared to Engelland. These "rates" are fairly consistent year over year.

I wonder what would happen if Engelland was given the same opportunities as Martin? The rates are what would separate the players given equal minutes.
Given equal minutes, I can pretty much guarantee you that Engelland's rates would drop dramatically. Give him the minutes and opponents that Martin goes up against and everyone would be calling for him to be waived or bought out.

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01-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #261
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What's the problem not to put Kennedy on 1st PP? He isn't as bad as people saw/see him (or at least I think)

1st:
----------Crosby
Kennedy------Neal/Malkin
----Letang----Malkin/Neal

2nd:
-----Tangradi/Dupuis/Cooke
Sutter-------Kunitz
---Niskanen---Despres/Martin

Something like that.

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01-14-2013, 03:47 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
why does Martin get more ice time and power play time than Engelland? Because Martin is better than Engelland. Stats can't tell the whole story in a situation like this.
This is DB style of thinking. With the gut in place of brain.

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01-14-2013, 03:48 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Muscles4Malkin View Post
What's the problem not to put Kennedy on 1st PP? He isn't as bad as people saw/see him (or at least I think)

1st:
----------Crosby
Kennedy------Neal/Malkin
----Letang----Malkin/Neal

2nd:
-----Tangradi/Dupuis/Cooke
Sutter-------Kunitz
---Niskanen---Despres/Martin

Something like that.
please no.

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01-14-2013, 03:50 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
This is DB style of thinking. With the gut in place of brain.
so you really think Deryk Engelland would put up similar goal totals to Kris Letang if he was given similar ice time? Isn't that what your stat suggested?

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01-14-2013, 03:51 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I'm not letting him off the hook, though.

If he wrote that story based on that source, which I'm assuming he did, because that was the only other person who reported it, it's just as bad.

Maybe reporters will start reading HF for stories. Just in case, in the immortal words of Eric Godard "you suck, Rossi!"
Gotcha. I was assuming you were defending Dejan because it wasn't his fault some other dude made something up.

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01-14-2013, 04:01 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
why does Martin get more ice time and power play time than Engelland? Because Martin is better than Engelland. Stats can't tell the whole story in a situation like this.
My understanding was that we were comparing the offensive abilities of the two players. Ice time is allotted by several factors and overall offense is usually a lesser factor for D at ES. Martin may get (a lot) more PP time, but the results that he has produced there seem to only demonstrate that to be a mistake. Martin makes almost 10x that of Engelland. Which one is making more efficient use of their ice time?

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01-14-2013, 04:04 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
so you really think Deryk Engelland would put up similar goal totals to Kris Letang if he was given similar ice time? Isn't that what your stat suggested?
At 5v5, (GIVEN EQUAL MINUTES) it is not a terrible speculation....As stated in the stats, Letang really separates himself from the pack on the PP. That is why his counting stats are much higher. Engelland has demonstrated that rate (.2g/60min) for 2 seasons now. I would not think it is a fluke.

I would not expect DE to be as good as Letang is on 5v4. It is a decent bet that he would be better than Martin. Isn't that what this was all about to begin with?

Engelland does play against lessor competition compared to Letang, but they are closer than most would think in scoring.

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01-14-2013, 04:07 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
My understanding was that we were comparing the offensive abilities of the two players. Ice time is allotted by several factors and overall offense is usually a lesser factor for D at ES. Martin may get (a lot) more PP time, but the results that he has produced there seem to only demonstrate that to be a mistake. Martin makes almost 10x that of Engelland. Which one is making more efficient use of their ice time?
first of all, money has nothing to do with the discussion. second, I'm not suggesting Martin is a great option for the powerplay. Just that he's better than Engelland. When factoring in things like skating the puck into the zone and keeping the puck in on attempted clearing attempts, I don't see how its even debatable.

As far as the stats go, neither of our stats are overly useful. His are bad because they ignore factors like the quality of competition. My stats are 'unfair' because they are playing different times and whatnot. Mine include absolutely everything, including things like potential coach bias. Either way, my point was that stats really don't tell the whole story.

The whole story here being that Martin is obviously a better offensive player than Engelland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
At 5v5, (GIVEN EQUAL MINUTES) it is not a terrible speculation....As stated in the stats, Letang really separates himself from the pack on the PP. That is why his counting stats are much higher. Engelland has demonstrated that rate (.2g/60min) for 2 seasons now. I would not think it is a fluke.

I would not expect DE to be as good as Letang is on 5v4. It is a decent bet that he would be better than Martin. Isn't that what this was all about to begin with?

Engelland does play against lessor competition compared to Letang, but they are closer than most would think in scoring.
And you don't think the fact that your stats are completely ignoring quality of competition or factors such as player fatigue make them unreliable? Because there is no way Engelland would put up even close to Letang's numbers if he suddenly replaced Letang in all situations. He simply wouldn't.

As far as Martin vs Engelland, I guess we can agree to disagree. Neither are good PP options. In my opinion, Martin is a significantly better one due to his skating at least.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 01-14-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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Old
01-14-2013, 04:11 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
so Letang looks to be practicing in Sullivan's spot from last year on the PP. I wonder if anyone ever thought of trying that?
I remember I totally suggested that in one of the million Jordan Staal threads, when people broke down crying about aquiring a LHS winger. I admit I`d have never come up with the Neal on point idea though. Sorry, this is why I don`t have a job coaching in the NHL.

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01-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
My understanding was that we were comparing the offensive abilities of the two players. Ice time is allotted by several factors and overall offense is usually a lesser factor for D at ES. Martin may get (a lot) more PP time, but the results that he has produced there seem to only demonstrate that to be a mistake. Martin makes almost 10x that of Engelland. Which one is making more efficient use of their ice time?
No the problem is he is using one stat and concluding from that stat (and that stat alone) that Engelland is a better offensive dman than Martin. Statisticians don't make absolute conclusions like this. Then you take that stat and it tells you that Engelland is as good offensively at ES as Letang and it's obvious there is an issue with using it to make conclusions. These stats are helpful tools but they should not be the sole thing used to make conclusions about personnel and role.

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01-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I remember I totally suggested that in one of the million Jordan Staal threads, when people broke down crying about aquiring a LHS winger. I admit I`d have never come up with the Neal on point idea though. Sorry, this is why I don`t have a job coaching in the NHL.
ya I don't know how I feel about Neal there. Or Sid, or Geno though.

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01-14-2013, 04:23 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I'm not letting him off the hook, though.

If he wrote that story based on that source, which I'm assuming he did, because that was the only other person who reported it, it's just as bad.

Maybe reporters will start reading HF for stories. Just in case, in the immortal words of Eric Godard "you suck, Rossi!"
Yeah, that WBS blogger has had a rough week. He's blaming other people on his Twitter feed for the erroneous MacIntyre info that he didn't credit anyone else with in the first place.

Looking through it, he based the entire "report" on a random tweet from an OKC Barons blogger with zero connections to the Leafs (and less than 200 followers). In other words it's hard to trust anything other than direct observations from said WBS blog.

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01-14-2013, 04:35 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Gotcha. I was assuming you were defending Dejan because it wasn't his fault some other dude made something up.
It's kind of depressing, because I was excited to see Dejan back reporting on the Pens, but he's just as bad and unreliable as the rest of them these days. I wish Jonathan Bombulie would come here.

As for the Engelland debate, I wouldn't be totally opposed to putting him out there with the second powerplay if they're going to be playing the same role as last year. If they're going out there for an offensive zone faceoff with 15 seconds left or whatever, his ability to get his shot off quickly and on net could be an asset. At least it would create a chance for a rebound or a deflection.

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01-14-2013, 04:48 PM
  #274
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Dejan sounded like an idiot today on Madden. Said they should put Kennedy on the 2nd line because he's a "sure thing" & "we know what we have in him" which is exactly why you don't put him on the second line.

Then he went on to talk about Martin not being the same offensive player after the shoulder injury. Except Martin was never really that great of an offensive player in the first place.

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01-14-2013, 04:49 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
It's kind of depressing, because I was excited to see Dejan back reporting on the Pens, but he's just as bad and unreliable as the rest of them these days. I wish Jonathan Bombulie would come here.

As for the Engelland debate, I wouldn't be totally opposed to putting him out there with the second powerplay if they're going to be playing the same role as last year. If they're going out there for an offensive zone faceoff with 15 seconds left or whatever, his ability to get his shot off quickly and on net could be an asset. At least it would create a chance for a rebound or a deflection.
All of the Pens beat guys don't truly understand the game and they want to break "news" first.

I'd rather read stuff that is written well and accurately, even if it isn't first. It's sad that when Kevin Allen broke the news Staal wasn't happy in Pgh, that people questioned who he was (only the best hockey writer of the last 25 yrs).

Allen doesn't feel the need to be first to break news or float BS rumors. So when he breaks something, as I said back in April, I put a ton of stock in it.

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