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Draft day: Couturier to MTL for Seth Jones

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Old
01-14-2013, 03:57 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I like Seth Jones, but I wouldn't trade Couturier for him. Couturier has played a year in the NHL and has shown to be an effective shutdown center plus 13 goals in his rookie year as a fourth liner is nothing to sneeze at. Seth Jones could be another Pronger or Doughty or he could be another Bouwmeester or Erik Johnson. Defensemen are so hard to judge that you might get the best one in round two as opposed the 2nd overall pick.
You must be kidding me. These guys are all #1 defenseman on their respective teams, and at age 18, I would definately take each of their players (including Bouwmeester and Johnson) over your 13G scoring 4th liner

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01-14-2013, 04:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
You must be kidding me. These guys are all #1 defenseman on their respective teams, and at age 18, I would definately take each of their players (including Bouwmeester and Johnson) over your 13G scoring 4th liner
I think you should rephrase that. Couturier scored 13 goals as a 4th line center primarily. This season he will definitely be more relied upon, being our 2nd/3rd center easily (behind Giroux and Briere/Schenn probably). The way you worded it made it sound like Couturier will be nothing more than he was last season.

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01-14-2013, 04:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
You must be kidding me. These guys are all #1 defenseman on their respective teams, and at age 18, I would definately take each of their players (including Bouwmeester and Johnson) over your 13G scoring 4th liner
while i WOULD do Couturier for Seth Jones as a flyers fan, this is just absolutely ridiculous. Couts is 19 and played a 4th line role because we have one of the most offensive teams in the league, and he was counted on more for his stellar defense. to refer to him as a 13g scoring 4th liner is completely taken out of context because you're assuming that that's all he will be since that's what he did as an 18-19 year old. how do you not see the lack of logic there?

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01-14-2013, 04:18 PM
  #54
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If the Habs get a top 3 pick in this draft and they trade it for only Couturier I would be very disappointed in Marc Bergevin and Habs management.

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01-14-2013, 04:21 PM
  #55
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are you kidding? not a ****ing chance from Habs POV -

subban, Jones, gorges, thrower, tinordi, ellis, beaulieu, emelin +
Price?


habs have Galchenyuk and Eller right now. I like Couturier, but anyone actually watch Seth Jones? He controls the game when he's on the ice - and he did it at the WJC against best in the world

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01-14-2013, 04:25 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
are you kidding? not a ****ing chance from Habs POV -

subban, Jones, gorges, thrower, tinordi, ellis, beaulieu, emelin +
Price?


habs have Galchenyuk and Eller right now. I like Couturier, but anyone actually watch Seth Jones? He controls the game when he's on the ice - and he did it at the WJC against best in the world
I liked Jones' play at the WJC, but he was trying to do too much at times. Overhandling the puck. Forcing plays. Trying to get shots through bodies. He would have been much better if he settled down a bit, and let his teammates do their jobs.

I'm not sure it's a lack of hockey smarts, so much as just a young kid who is used to being needed to do everything. I think they are different things.

Edit: And I'm not trying to take anything away from Jones. He's going to be a stud. I just felt he made a bunch of mistakes by trying to influence the game too much, when the simple play was the better one. I think that's the type of thing that young players learn with time, and they simplify their games.

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01-14-2013, 04:33 PM
  #57
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Jones is gonna go #1 by far the best D-men prospect in 10 years. Key word "Prospect" before homers jump on me.

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01-14-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I liked Jones' play at the WJC, but he was trying to do too much at times. Overhandling the puck. Forcing plays. Trying to get shots through bodies. He would have been much better if he settled down a bit, and let his teammates do their jobs.

I'm not sure it's a lack of hockey smarts, so much as just a young kid who is used to being needed to do everything. I think they are different things.

Edit: And I'm not trying to take anything away from Jones. He's going to be a stud. I just felt he made a bunch of mistakes by trying to influence the game too much, when the simple play was the better one. I think that's the type of thing that young players learn with time, and they simplify their games.
That is less of an issue in Portland. We have to remember that he's a draft eligible player, and most players in that position are rarely at their best at the WJCs. If the same problem is there next year, then I'll concede a point like that, but not now.

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01-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  #59
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Lmao. Any GM in the league trades Couterier for a crack at Jones. Sorry Flyers fans, you're not fooling anybody

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01-14-2013, 04:47 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
That is less of an issue in Portland. We have to remember that he's a draft eligible player, and most players in that position are rarely at their best at the WJCs. If the same problem is there next year, then I'll concede a point like that, but not now.
Oh, I agree. I really wasn't trying to imply I was disappointed in his play, because nothing could be further from the truth. He was a standout player, amongst players who were older and more experienced. Objectively though, compared to someone like Trouba, it's easy to see that Jones was raw in comparison. Trouba easily looked like the more NHL-ready and polished prospect(and to Trouba's credit, he was also a bit young for that tournament too).

Of course, like you said, it is different. If Jones is even available for the US next year, you'd expect him to be just that much better. I just thought it was worth mentioning that, yes, he was very good at the WJC(with extra emphasis on his draft eligiblity) but there is plenty of room for growth and improvement in his game, and I'd argue there were better defensemen out there on the ice(though perhaps none who were more impressive).

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01-14-2013, 04:47 PM
  #61
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I think the Habs keep Jones if they are lucky enough to get him. Jones, Subban, Gorges, and hope one of Tinordi/Beaulieu/Thrower/Ellis/etc pan out to be a top 4 D. Price will probably find his life much more easier with that in front.

If they want a forward though, I'm sure they won't be disappointed with Drouin/Mackinnon/Barkov/Lindholm

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01-14-2013, 04:52 PM
  #62
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Also, to add on the OP's hypothetical scenario, the Habs, in a position to draft Jones, would need him more than they would need Couturier.

Jones would solidify our D-corps and give us one of the best in the league for years to come if he and a couple of our other prospects (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis) can play in a top 4 role.

Couturier, while being a nice piece, isn't a surefire 1st line center. If he tops out as a 60-70 points player, we would simply end up with a Plekanec 2.0. Not only that, but if Galchenyuk reach his potential of first line center, we won't need Couturier. And we won't need him on the second line either, since we will have Desharnais, Plekanec and probably Eller ready to assume the role of 2nd line center.

Speaking of Eller, he's currently the Habs' own version of Couturier. He's older and took more time to develop, but most Habs fan think he's approaching the capacity of being a legitimate 2nd line center, judging by the way he bulked up this summer and played in the SM-Liga (15 points in 15 games, compared 23 in 29 games for Rich Peverley who was on the same team).

So basically, as good as Couter is, unless he turns into a superstar (which, despite what Flyers fan make him out to be at the moment, he's far from) the Habs would find Jones much more serviceable, even if he tops out as a N.2 defenseman.

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01-14-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Also, to add on the OP's hypothetical scenario, the Habs, in a position to draft Jones, would need him more than they would need Couturier.

Jones would solidify our D-corps and give us one of the best in the league for years to come if he and a couple of our other prospects (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis) can play in a top 4 role.

Couturier, while being a nice piece, isn't a surefire 1st line center. If he tops out as a 60-70 points player, we would simply end up with a Plekanec 2.0. Not only that, but if Galchenyuk reach his potential of first line center, we won't need Couturier. And we won't need him on the second line either, since we will have Desharnais, Plekanec and probably Eller ready to assume the role of 2nd line center.

Speaking of Eller, he's currently the Habs' own version of Couturier. He's older and took more time to develop, but most Habs fan think he's approaching the capacity of being a legitimate 2nd line center, judging by the way he bulked up this summer and played in the SM-Liga (15 points in 15 games, compared 23 in 29 games for Rich Peverley who was on the same team).

So basically, as good as Couter is, unless he turns into a superstar (which, despite what Flyers fan make him out to be at the moment, he's far from) the Habs would find Jones much more serviceable, even if he tops out as a N.2 defenseman.
You basically typed all that out when "Not sure if serious?" would have sufficed!

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01-14-2013, 05:23 PM
  #64
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I'd trade Seth Jones for Couturier. I'd always take the established young player if it was close.

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01-14-2013, 05:26 PM
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I'd trade Seth Jones for Couturier. I'd always take the established young player if it was close.
That's probably where some of the disagreement comes from. Just how close is it? Personally, I think Seth Jones has much higher potential. Franchise potential. I think Couturier will be a damn good player, but I don't think he can match that, even at his best. That's just my opinion.

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01-14-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
That's probably where some of the disagreement comes from. Just how close is it? Personally, I think Seth Jones has much higher potential. Franchise potential. I think Couturier will be a damn good player, but I don't think he can match that, even at his best. That's just my opinion.
Yeah, what is Seth Jones? Pronger? Not mean enough for that? Erik Johnson? Hedman? Something less...? I don't know. I like him a lot. But my experience in 30 years of watching prospects come and go is that the odds of them living up to max potential projections is pretty low, even at the top end. He's not Sidney Crosby, anyway. I'm not sure what Couturier is or how good he is going to be either, mind you. So it's certainly not an easy call. But Couturier is doing something in the NHL today, and could help my team today, so I'd make the swap. I guess Burke did something like that too, and got burned on it, although I'm not talking of dealing Seth Jones *and* another 1st... Whenever it's even close you also have to engage the rest of your staff, maybe there's a scout that could sway me on keeping Jones instead.

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01-14-2013, 05:50 PM
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while i WOULD do Couturier for Seth Jones as a flyers fan, this is just absolutely ridiculous. Couts is 19 and played a 4th line role because we have one of the most offensive teams in the league, and he was counted on more for his stellar defense. to refer to him as a 13g scoring 4th liner is completely taken out of context because you're assuming that that's all he will be since that's what he did as an 18-19 year old. how do you not see the lack of logic there?
If you look back at the post I quoted you would notice that he was touting Couturier as some impressive 13G scoring rookie 4th liner. Do I understand that he was 18-19 and obviously has higher upside than a 4th liner? Obviously. Am I instantly convinced he has PPG/Selke winning upside as many Flyer fans suggest on this board? Definately not.

In reality, Couturier is still very much unproven (offensively) and certainly hasn't shown enough to justify trading a potential franchise defenseman who will likely be drafted top 2 in this upcoming draft.

There was a reason why Couturier dropped to 8th overall in the 2011 Entry Draft and there really isn't any reason to assume he would catapult to the top 2-3 in the 2013 Entry Draft.

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01-14-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
If you look back at the post I quoted you would notice that he was touting Couturier as some impressive 13G scoring rookie 4th liner. Do I understand that he was 18-19 and obviously has higher upside than a 4th liner? Obviously. Am I instantly convinced he has PPG/Selke winning upside as many Flyer fans suggest on this board? Definately not.

In reality, Couturier is still very much unproven (offensively) and certainly hasn't shown enough to justify trading a potential franchise defenseman who will likely be drafted top 2 in this upcoming draft.

There was a reason why Couturier dropped to 8th overall in the 2011 Entry Draft and there really isn't any reason to assume he would catapult to the top 2-3 in the 2013 Entry Draft.
Not to support the posters idea but to say there was a reason Couturier dropped to 8th over all is patently false. That is like stating Jarri Kurri dropped or Mike Bossy dropped to there positions for a reason.

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01-14-2013, 06:00 PM
  #69
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Lmao. Any GM in the league trades Couterier for a crack at Jones. Sorry Flyers fans, you're not fooling anybody
What a silly statement.....obviously you badly underestimate Sean...in reality, he himself was favored to be the # 1 draft when he went 8th...and his first year on the 4rth line was great.....honestly, your hyperbole is stunning...

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01-14-2013, 06:05 PM
  #70
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If the habs draft Seth Jones they will not trade him for a poor guy like Couturier, comon...

I have to admit this is an interesting thread considering how the flyers fans value couturier but I prefer Jones over him whatever happen with the habs.

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01-14-2013, 06:08 PM
  #71
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Jones won't be there at No. 3.
Exactly

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01-14-2013, 06:11 PM
  #72
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We will see after this season, if Sean progresses offensively like most Flyers fans think he can, then no. If not, then yes.

I gotta say though, Jones didn't really WOW me like I thought he would at the WJC's, though you can definitely see the massive potential if he puts it all together. Couturier's hockey sense is off the charts, which I think is why he's become "overrated" by Flyers fans.

I don't see Jones going 1st overall at all, infact, I'd give Drouin a better chance at going 1st than Jones. Defenders are just too unpredictable. Remember when Hedman was going to go 1st overall? Johnson over Toews? Even Doughty over Stamkos would of been a mistake.
just like Mcdonagh and this is one of the reasons why Gauthier traded him to the rangers, maybe Jones didnt show anything special at the wjc but he didnt make mistake, he did his job and it was perfect.

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01-14-2013, 06:20 PM
  #73
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Couturier will never become the Flyers 1c simply because of giroux.

That does not mean he couldn't become another teams 1c.

Jones will never become the Canadiens 1d because of Subban, but he could become the flyers 1d.

It comes down to who has more impact on the game, i dont see any of these 2 players as generational talents. I think it comes down to need .

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01-14-2013, 06:20 PM
  #74
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Flyers certainly don't.
Agreed. What exactly has Jones done in the NHL again? Just because you have talent, doesn't mean your going to make it. Alexander Daigle says hello

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01-14-2013, 06:21 PM
  #75
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That is like stating Jarri Kurri dropped or Mike Bossy dropped to there positions for a reason.
There was a reason, that being that any GM that passed on them for something other than filling a hole at another position was an idiot.

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