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Fighting to increase dramatically this year?

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Old
01-14-2013, 05:12 PM
  #51
Bridges31
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I disagree with everyone being worried about McQuaid dropping the gloves. Concussion history or not, this guy is one of the best fighters on the team IMO. I'm sure he's not worried about fighting and neither am I. We need him to be able to keep doing that.

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01-14-2013, 05:35 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
meanwhile nobody has answered how fighting actually results in wins
All I know is that there are countless examples - and no I am not going to "prove it" by pasting in some links for you here, there are tons of interviews and stories out there to go find - of players, coaches, GMs, etc., talking about how much energy guys and "role players" and tough guys mean to their teams and how much impact they have on the momentum of games. While fans debate this, I just default to listening to what the people directly involved have to say and they seem to constantly confirm the value of "those kinds of players" to their teams. It's just part of the fabric of many teams and, like any other part of a team's makeup, it has it's place, and value.

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01-14-2013, 05:49 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
All I know is that there are countless examples - and no I am not going to "prove it" by pasting in some links for you here, there are tons of interviews and stories out there to go find - of players, coaches, GMs, etc., talking about how much energy guys and "role players" and tough guys mean to their teams and how much impact they have on the momentum of games. While fans debate this, I just default to listening to what the people directly involved have to say and they seem to constantly confirm the value of "those kinds of players" to their teams. It's just part of the fabric of many teams and, like any other part of a team's makeup, it has it's place, and value.
and meanwhile we all talk about how "clutch" or "unclutch" certain players are in a variety of sports with the same breathless tones, yet remain unable to quantify or correlate what that means and how it actually affects teams

the thread was started under the following premise: that fighting in lockout shortened seasons will go up and whether the bruins would have enough pugilists to win these fights; in fairness, colt never made the direct correlation of winning fights to winning games, but certainly one could be forgiven for making that jump

i took a look at that particular season's fighting data and point values and saw no direct correlation; is there data that supports his claim

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01-14-2013, 05:52 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
and meanwhile we all talk about how "clutch" or "unclutch" certain players are in a variety of sports with the same breathless tones, yet remain unable to quantify or correlate what that means and how it actually affects teams

the thread was started under the following premise: that fighting in lockout shortened seasons will go up and whether the bruins would have enough pugilists to win these fights; in fairness, colt never made the direct correlation of winning fights to winning games, but certainly one could be forgiven for making that jump

i took a look at that particular season's fighting data and point values and saw no direct correlation; is there data that supports his claim
Have you taken a look at games that this current team has played in?

I'm sure it has been stated, but the Bruins have a pretty solid record when Shawn Thornton gets into a fight.

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01-14-2013, 06:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
and meanwhile we all talk about how "clutch" or "unclutch" certain players are in a variety of sports with the same breathless tones, yet remain unable to quantify or correlate what that means and how it actually affects teams

the thread was started under the following premise: that fighting in lockout shortened seasons will go up and whether the bruins would have enough pugilists to win these fights; in fairness, colt never made the direct correlation of winning fights to winning games, but certainly one could be forgiven for making that jump

i took a look at that particular season's fighting data and point values and saw no direct correlation; is there data that supports his claim
But do you really want to, have to, take a "Sabremetrics" type approach about this? Maybe it's very difficult to quantify or it's ala a placebo, or whatever. If you want to make a definitive conclusion that "fighting has no bearing on winning," then you have to do a little more work in my book as to why every GM who signs a "tough guy," every coach who plays a tough guy, including in the Stanley Cup final, every player who says tough guy X is very important to the team, is essentially wrong to waste resources on such players. Either they have some value or they don't, and if so many teams/managers/players are wasting resources on players with no value and they are "wrong" for doing so, I say you have some work to do to really build a definitive case. Not "a" case, a "definitive" case. You are taking on some fairly credible hockey professionals by saying they are all wet for continuing to employ tough guys.

Just because you can't figure out the form of the correlation or because it's ephemeral or elusive or it's more psychological-than-statistical-but-maybe-that-counts-as-statistical-in-some-way-of-looking-at-things... leaves it as an open question. Here's a correlation for you... the Bruins won the Stanley Cup while giving SCF ice time to enforcer Shawn Thornton, therefore winning the Stanley Cup sometimes is correlative with employment of an enforcer. The incidence of that and what it means... I leave to you to worry about.

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01-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
and meanwhile we all talk about how "clutch" or "unclutch" certain players are in a variety of sports with the same breathless tones, yet remain unable to quantify or correlate what that means and how it actually affects teams

the thread was started under the following premise: that fighting in lockout shortened seasons will go up and whether the bruins would have enough pugilists to win these fights; in fairness, colt never made the direct correlation of winning fights to winning games, but certainly one could be forgiven for making that jump

i took a look at that particular season's fighting data and point values and saw no direct correlation; is there data that supports his claim
In fairness, he also said that the thread was not meant to turn into a debate about fighting...

Back on topic, I think the shortened season ramps up the intensity, so I would expect more fights per game this year. I agree that we are going to be ready. Just the thought of Kaleta being even more of a d-bag because Scott is there makes me sick.

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01-14-2013, 06:13 PM
  #57
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Yeah okay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
According to many members of hockeyfights.com we have a bunch of spot pickers and psuedo tough guys.
Because THORNTON only fought guys like BOOGAARD, BRASHEAR, ORR, instead of the bigger/tougher guys in the league!

CHARA picked his spots and went after guys like LARAQUE and KOCI instead of bigger/tougher guys in the league!

LUCIC only fights none-fighters like ORR, PRUST, NEIL and only wins most of his bouts because he picks on inexperienced guys like these guys!

Guys like FERENCE and CAMPBELL are huge at almost 190 give or take lbs each and should actively go seek out guys like John SCOTT at a tiny 6'8" 270 or they are just plain cowards!

Adam MCQUAID, being a middle-weight clearly picks his spots and only fights guys that never drop the gloves like MARTIN, KONOPKA and ASHAM; all of bunch of choir boys.

Whomever these "members" are, they are totally ignorant regarding the NHL if they truly believe that statement. Every other team in the league wishes they could ice the team toughness that the Bruins currently enjoy.

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01-14-2013, 06:26 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
the thread was started under the following premise: that fighting in lockout shortened seasons will go up and whether the bruins would have enough pugilists to win these fights; in fairness, colt never made the direct correlation of winning fights to winning games, but certainly one could be forgiven for making that jump
Also, I don't think that is quite the line of thinking that comes into play.

Rather, it's a question of do the Bruins "match up" well enough with other team and do they actually maintain an advantage in terms of toughness, physicality, intimidation. All of which I would argue relate to some extent to fighting, both willingness and success. In recent times, this Bruins team has been one of the tougher teams around and they seem to derive a strong bond from that aspect of the team. We all know there are a couple games a year where some team "pokes the bear" and the Bruins do well in those games and seem to pull together as a team as a result. I don't know that they need to win all the fights and in fact they don't. But they show up and know they are a team that won't get pushed around.

Rather than accept your fool's errand of "proving" that the preceding materially helps the Bruins win games, meaning actually scoring more goals than the other team, let's look at an inverse situation. The Buffalo Sabres last year suffered from what many would diagnose as both a lack of tough players and team toughness. After Lucic ran over Miller, the Sabres seemed to get pretty preoccupied with questions about their collective toughness and whether they had each other's backs, etc. That was something that dogged the team. And by the way the Sabres struggled and underperformed last year. I'm not making that direct correlation but I am saying that the Sabres were not a confident team and they were spooked by the questioning of their toughness, etc. They just weren't in a good place. This cannot be an outrageous claim because after the season, they dispatched talented players (e.g., Roy) and brought in tougher players like Ott and Scott, and no doubt we'll see truculence from other fresh faces like Foligno, McNabb, etc. If this was not a need, why make roster changes? And if it wasn't important, why make roster changes? And if they did not at least partly attribute a disappointing season to this... why make roster changes?

You could make the same analysis about the Canadiens going back a few years ago. They have steadily been adding bigger, tougher players to their roster and it's partly a reaction to being pushed around too much by the Bruins. That has been a real advantage over certain teams and you want to maintain that. It's not so much a matter of having the toughest guy or winning all the fights, it's a matter of not dismissing that this has been a big part of the Bruins success and keeping up the priority of that when building out the roster.

The bottom line is not that the Bruins need to win every fight against John Scott or Jody Shelley or Big Mac or Kevin Westgarth. The point is that they need to keep pace and not lose one of their big advantages over many other teams. The good news is that they probably haven't. They still have one of the better mixes of overall willingness, individual toughness, and good sense about when it's time to respond or push down on the gas (e.g., versus Vancouver in the SC). I think they'll be tested more this year, and it will be a more level playing field with some teams, and we'll see if they need to adjust at all or if things will be just fine. I'm not worried. But I'll pay attention to this. Other teams seem to be specifically responding to the Bruins roster and of course you pay attention to that.


Last edited by DOGSTARMAN: 01-14-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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01-14-2013, 07:02 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
i took a look at that particular season's fighting data and point values and saw no direct correlation; is there data that supports his claim
And what "claim" was that again?

It is ridiculously simplistic, but people ask if there is evidence to support your team fighting to equal winning. It is one of the stupidest questions out there; it takes 2 to fight and only 1 team can win, so it is impossible for a fight to = a win. *HOWEVER* what can and does win games (amongst other things) is intimidation and imposing your will on the other team --both can be achieved through a physical brand that requires fighting to back it up from time to time.

The Bruins have found great success promoting this brand of hockey in their teams. For the B's it is pretty much started in the post-Lewis era and culminated in the Cup. I just think it is legit to debate the possibilities that teams are going to be loading up their 4th line and 6th Dman this year to play the Bruins and neutralize that part of our game. Are we ready for it? Well, only if Lucic, Horton and Chara are ready to fight more. Reworded: only if 2/3 of our top line and our #1 Dman are ready to fight more.

I guess this comes down to asking if Lane McDermid is ready to get quite a few games as the 4th line LW because he is a willing combatant and takes fights away from the oft-concussed Horton and McQuaid. He could handle himself with many of the guys in the conference if he stays away from the top heavies.

Edit: I see the Canucks just signed the very, very tough Jim Vandermeer and the Isles just picked up the 6'8 245pd Finley from waivers.


Last edited by Colt.45Orr: 01-14-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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01-14-2013, 07:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
I guess this comes down to asking if Lane McDermid is ready to get quite a few games as the 4th line LW because he is a willing combatant and takes fights away from the oft-concussed Horton and McQuaid. He could handle himself with many of the guys in the conference if he stays away from the top heavies.
My view is that the Bruins have enough skill guys, and should be able to produce enough offense, to "carry" a guy like MacDermid. He should have to earn a job, just like Bourque or Spooner or Caron (when healty) or Pandolfo. But if he's a viable option, he would give them other attributes that could be useful to this team. If one of the other kids is a hustle machine who looks confident and like he might chip in offense, fair enough. But MacDermid should be part of the conversation.

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01-14-2013, 07:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Totally unbiased source there.

There are to this day Habs fans who insist that Lucic is afraid of Laraque and Chara is a monster who routinely kills people. It's hilarious.
Lucic was afraid of Laraque. Chara has never killed anyone.

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01-14-2013, 07:27 PM
  #62
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I'm with pie. Zero evidence that fighting helps a team win. Yes the Rangers and B's were teams 1 and 2 in fighting last year, but CBS was #3. The top 10 fighting teams last year had 5 playoff teams and 5 nonplayoff teams. The team that ousted the Bs in the 1st round was 26th in fighting. Detroit is always last or near last in fighting.

Zero correlation.

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01-14-2013, 07:36 PM
  #63
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a Red Wings scout's assessment of ted Lindsay at the time while playing in juniors.....

"Saw this kid Lindsay. STOP. His team lost 3-2. STOP. He scored both goals, started and won 2 fights. STOP.I think we should get him. STOP"

The other Pie's assessment of said player....His team lost. no correlation of fights (or his 2 goals) to any victory that I can see. I say we pass and go for the 2nd line LWer on the winning team because they won with him.

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01-14-2013, 07:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Lucic was afraid of Laraque. Chara has never killed anyone.
This is sarcasm, right? Guess my meter needs a 1,000-mile checkup.



Nov. 22, 2008:

Quote:
On their first shift together, Laraque tapped Lucic on the leg with his stick, then got in his face, asking the Bruin to drop his gloves. Lucic didn't bite. For the rest of the period, Laraque was talking to Lucic, no doubt questioning his courage in the most explicit of ways.

Lucic continued to decline, prompting the Montreal fans to boo the forward and chant his name. But Lucic had someone more important to answer to than Laraque.

Namely, his boss.

"There was no way it was going to happen," said coach Claude Julien, who had, before the game, forbidden Lucic from fighting Laraque. "[Shawn] Thornton was there, ready for Georges. Nothing happened. My tough guy was ready for their tough guy. Simple as that. I told him not to fight. It was me."
Quote:
Lucic landed a game-high nine hits last night but never dropped the gloves. Instead, Lucic scored his sixth goal of the season to tie the game at 11:11 of the second period.
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/..._off_a_suitor/

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01-14-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I'm with pie. Zero evidence that fighting helps a team win. Yes the Rangers and B's were teams 1 and 2 in fighting last year, but CBS was #3. The top 10 fighting teams last year had 5 playoff teams and 5 nonplayoff teams. The team that ousted the Bs in the 1st round was 26th in fighting. Detroit is always last or near last in fighting.

Zero correlation.
et tu, Doc Q.?

Lemme guess, are you one of those who were convinced back in the day that "Cam Neely can't score from the penalty box"?

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01-14-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
This is sarcasm, right? Guess my meter needs a 1,000-mile checkup.



Nov. 22, 2008:





http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/..._off_a_suitor/
That was wonderful reading.

Totally irrelevant, but wonderful. I think you have other meters that need fixing.

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01-14-2013, 07:40 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Pie O My View Post
et tu, Doc Q.?

Lemme guess, are you one of those who were convinced back in the day that "Cam Neely can't score from the penalty box"?
Well, it's weird. I like to watch the fights for sure, so they provide entertainment value to the fans. I just don't think there's any on ice value.

And for every, "Yeah, but one time this team was down and fought, and came back and won." I can tell you about a team that was winning, fought and blew it's lead.

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01-14-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
And for every, "Yeah, but one time this team was down and fought, and came back and won." I can tell you about a team that was winning, fought and blew it's lead.
Why do the Bruins have Shawn THornton on the roster?

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01-14-2013, 07:44 PM
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That was wonderful reading.

Totally irrelevant, but wonderful. I think you have other meters that need fixing.
Did I miss something? You said Lucic was afraid of Laraque. The very idea that Milan Lucic was "afraid" of Laraque is unless, of course, you're a Montreal fan. Then, of course, it's gospel.

A first-line winger isn't going to accept an "invitation" to fight from a goon. That's just common sense. The Bruins won that game and Lucic scored a goal, which he wasn't going to do from the penalty box. If Lucic had fought Laraque, the Canadiens would have been ecstatic.

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01-14-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Did I miss something? You said Lucic was afraid of Laraque. The very idea that Milan Lucic was "afraid" of Laraque is unless, of course, you're a Montreal fan. Then, of course, it's gospel.

A first-line winger isn't going to accept an "invitation" to fight from a goon. That's just common sense. The Bruins won that game and Lucic scored a goal, which he wasn't going to do from the penalty box. If Lucic had fought Laraque, the Canadiens would have been ecstatic.
The same first line winger accepted Orr and Carkner. Julien should have left it up to Looch. It wasn't the playoff for crying out loud. Looch took tonkuch crap for that.

And how come people never have a problem when our first line winger beats the crap out of the Komisareks of the world?

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01-14-2013, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Have you taken a look at games that this current team has played in?

I'm sure it has been stated, but the Bruins have a pretty solid record when Shawn Thornton gets into a fight.
so i went ahead and did the numbers for 2011-2012 (including shootout victories and losses, those count): when shawn thornton fought, the bruins won 61.90% of the time; when he did not, they won 58.33% of the time

given the number of fights, this isn't really statistically significant (1 less win flips the numbers more or less; one less fight does about the same), but i'll go back and do most of thornton's career with the bruins to see if it's statistically significant over time

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01-14-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
All I know is that there are countless examples - and no I am not going to "prove it" by pasting in some links for you here, there are tons of interviews and stories out there to go find - of players, coaches, GMs, etc., talking about how much energy guys and "role players" and tough guys mean to their teams and how much impact they have on the momentum of games. While fans debate this, I just default to listening to what the people directly involved have to say and they seem to constantly confirm the value of "those kinds of players" to their teams. It's just part of the fabric of many teams and, like any other part of a team's makeup, it has it's place, and value.
Spot on IMO.

Fighting sure looks like it works for the Bruins. I've watched enough hockey in my life to know a good scrap can wake up a team or cause a momentum swing.

Some things can't be quantified with stats, that doesn't mean thy don't exist.

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01-14-2013, 07:59 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
The same first line winger accepted Orr and Carkner. Julien should have left it up to Looch. It wasn't the playoff for crying out loud.
Lucic was 2 or 3 years older when he fought those guys. maybe Clod was trying to protect him or not let the Canadiens dictate how things were going to go.

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01-14-2013, 08:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Lucic was 2 or 3 years older when he fought those guys. maybe Clod was trying to protect him or not let the Canadiens dictate how things were going to go.
Love Claude. One of the few times I disagreed wth him.

I brought those two guys because I get sick of hearing the bull **** first line wingers don't fight goons defense when Lucic does it a few times a year.

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01-14-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Love Claude. One of the few times I disagreed wth him.

I brought those two guys because I get sick of hearing the bull **** first line wingers don't fight goons defense when Lucic does it a few times a year.
The problem with the Bruins is they usually lose in the exchange, whoever fights. Thats why, as much as I want to see it, you don't want Lucic fighting a bum like Scott.

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