HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Boston Bruins
Notices

Fighting to increase dramatically this year?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-14-2013, 07:12 PM
  #76
deliciouspie
the best post
 
deliciouspie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: sf, austin, here
Country: United States
Posts: 2,778
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to deliciouspie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Spot on IMO.

Fighting sure looks like it works for the Bruins. I've watched enough hockey in my life to know a good scrap can wake up a team or cause a momentum swing.

Some things can't be quantified with stats, that doesn't mean thy don't exist.
i respectfully disagree: if you're claiming that something that is measurable as a stat ("When Thornton fights, the Bruins win more often") it is measurable by a stat; it's a tautological argument

if your argument is that stats don't show your argument, you're either 1) looking at the wrong stat or 2) wrong

that having been said: from 2010 to 2012, there appears to be about a 6.5% boost in winning % when shawn thornton plays and fights versus when shawn thornton plays and does not fight

i will agree that on first glance when shawn thornton plays the bruins are better when he fights; i haven't taken any weighting for who is being played or things of that nature

deliciouspie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:18 PM
  #77
Artemis
Took the red pill
 
Artemis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Mount Olympus
Country: United States
Posts: 17,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
The same first line winger accepted Orr and Carkner. Julien should have left it up to Looch. It wasn't the playoff for crying out loud. Looch took tonkuch crap for that.

And how come people never have a problem when our first line winger beats the crap out of the Komisareks of the world?
Because Komisarek is not a goon. He may have fallen in stature since, but when he first fought Lucic, he was considered to be a top-line defenseman.

There is a big difference between a fight sparked by emotion/circumstance and one initiated by "invitation." Laraque's attempted engagement of Lucic was definitely the latter, and Julien was smart to tell Lucic to avoid it. If some Habs fans are still ******** about it, so much the better.

Artemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:19 PM
  #78
Fire Julien
Registered User
 
Fire Julien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bergen
Country: Norway
Posts: 17,200
vCash: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
The problem with the Bruins is they usually lose in the exchange, whoever fights. Thats why, as much as I want to see it, you don't want Lucic fighting a bum like Scott.
If Ruff and Scott/Ott/Kaleta/McCormick etc are smart, they won't give the Bruins the choice. They will jump and take a few shots at our players. This isn't Jack Martin and George Laraque we're talking about.

Fire Julien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:21 PM
  #79
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Did I miss something? You said Lucic was afraid of Laraque. The very idea that Milan Lucic was "afraid" of Laraque is unless, of course, you're a Montreal fan. Then, of course, it's gospel.

A first-line winger isn't going to accept an "invitation" to fight from a goon. That's just common sense. The Bruins won that game and Lucic scored a goal, which he wasn't going to do from the penalty box. If Lucic had fought Laraque, the Canadiens would have been ecstatic.
Really? So you are telling me 1st liners like Cam Neely, Gordie Howe, Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, Todd Bertuzzi, Eric Lindross etc never fought goons?

That's your contention? Really?

Of course the Bruins won the game. Of course Lucic scored a goal. But that's completely irrelevant. Lucic is not simply a "first liner" as you've oh so simply put it. He's a tough guy, a fighter, a pf. He was challenged and turned it down. You can give all the rationalizations you want, but he turned down a fight when asked.

In the fight world that's kind of a no-no.

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:22 PM
  #80
WBC8
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Da Wood, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 34,476
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Because Komisarek is not a goon. He may have fallen in stature since, but when he first fought Lucic, he was considered to be a top-line defenseman.

There is a big difference between a fight sparked by emotion/circumstance and one initiated by "invitation." Laraque's attempted engagement of Lucic was definitely the latter, and Julien was smart to tell Lucic to avoid it. If some Habs fans are still ******** about it, so much the better.
So it's OK to lose our top line winger for 5 min against crap players he can beat up "in the heat of the moment", but not goons? What about when he went with Sestito, Orr or Carkner?

Let Lucic pick his spots vs whomever he wants...He knows how to do this thing better then we do.

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:23 PM
  #81
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
The same first line winger accepted Orr and Carkner. Julien should have left it up to Looch. It wasn't the playoff for crying out loud. Looch took tonkuch crap for that.

And how come people never have a problem when our first line winger beats the crap out of the Komisareks of the world?
LOL I remember someone here, can't remember who it was.. who suggested that Lucic go after Kessel the 1st time they played.

Laraque, when he was at his best, was the best fighter in the league. I can understand someone turning him down, but don't deny that he turned him down.

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:23 PM
  #82
I Am Beat You
Registered User
 
I Am Beat You's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,055
vCash: 500
The Bruins are still arguably the toughest team in the league, you guys don't have much to worry about.

I Am Beat You is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:25 PM
  #83
smithformeragent
Moderator
 
smithformeragent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Manchester NH
Country: United States
Posts: 8,646
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to smithformeragent
Love to see bench clearing brawls like the Stars game a couple years back. It was obvious that the event created a spark for that team. Love to see a guy like Ference jump to the defense of a teammate and drop the gloves.

Hate the staged fight between the two "enforcers" who serve little to no purpose on their team. I know that everyone here loves Thornton, but I personally hate the enforcer role.

smithformeragent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:26 PM
  #84
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Why do the Bruins have Shawn THornton on the roster?
Why do players grow beards in the playoffs. They do it because they think it helps. Do you think facial hair increases a team's chance to win?

So to answer your question: Just because a team THINKS something helps them win doesn't mean it does. Teams think that punting on 4th and short most of the time is the right way. Most analyses of it say that if you went for it on 4th down every single time you'd actually be making the smarter move.

Conventional wisdom isn't always correct.

Oh, and also, to answer your question, because Shawn Thornton does other things besides fight.

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:26 PM
  #85
WBC8
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Da Wood, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 34,476
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
The problem with the Bruins is they usually lose in the exchange, whoever fights. Thats why, as much as I want to see it, you don't want Lucic fighting a bum like Scott.
I agree. Not many first line D or first line LWs in the league will go with the Shelley's and Orr's of the world. It's a terrible trade off... but there is always a time and a place for it, and both of them know when. Lucic will go with Scott if feels it needs to be done at a certain point of the game.

January 31st will be interesting (If Scott makes it that far).. It's at home, so see if the Sabres have the balls to start their goons... If they do, I would expect Claude to match up... WOuld not shock me to see a Rangers/Devils 3 on 3 with McCormick, Ott and Scott vs MacDermid, Campbell and THornton.

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:27 PM
  #86
WBC8
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Da Wood, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 34,476
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by gudas View Post
The Bruins are still arguably the toughest team in the league, you guys don't have much to worry about.
We're really not... just want to be prepared for the other teams who feel like trying to make a name for themselves...

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:27 PM
  #87
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Spot on IMO.

Fighting sure looks like it works for the Bruins. I've watched enough hockey in my life to know a good scrap can wake up a team or cause a momentum swing.

Some things can't be quantified with stats, that doesn't mean thy don't exist.
But by definition, it takes 2 guys to fight. If a fight "wakes up" one team and spurs them to win, what does it do for the other?

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:28 PM
  #88
Therick67
Registered User
 
Therick67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South of Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 4,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
i respectfully disagree: if you're claiming that something that is measurable as a stat ("When Thornton fights, the Bruins win more often") it is measurable by a stat; it's a tautological argument

if your argument is that stats don't show your argument, you're either 1) looking at the wrong stat or 2) wrong

that having been said: from 2010 to 2012, there appears to be about a 6.5% boost in winning % when shawn thornton plays and fights versus when shawn thornton plays and does not fight

i will agree that on first glance when shawn thornton plays the bruins are better when he fights; i haven't taken any weighting for who is being played or things of that nature
I'm not claming fighting is directly tied to winning, because you have to have talent to win also, but when the players talk about it and it helps bring a group closer together I think its a definite edge and can certainly be a contributing factor. I think it played a role in the bruins winning the cup.
The Sabres went to crap last season after Miller got run over by Lucic. I'm not sure thats a measurable stat though.

I hear lots of talk about leadership helping teams win. I believe in it, but can anyone quantify that with a stat?

Therick67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:31 PM
  #89
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Lucic was 2 or 3 years older when he fought those guys. maybe Clod was trying to protect him or not let the Canadiens dictate how things were going to go.
So when he was younger he didn't fight 4th line goons? You mean like Eric Boulton? BJ Crombeen? Mike Brown? Ivanans?

I love it. Lucic can't fight Laraque because that would be a bad trade off for the Bruins. But fighting Joseph Melichar, or Ivanans is a fair trade off for the Bruins?

Is that the contention? That Lucic is only as valuable as Ivanans?

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:32 PM
  #90
Therick67
Registered User
 
Therick67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South of Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 4,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
But by definition, it takes 2 guys to fight. If a fight "wakes up" one team and spurs them to win, what does it do for the other?
It doesn't help them

The Bruins have had 2 fight filled games with the Stars, and it sure looked to me like those fights bosted the Bruins. It got the building going and the bruins played with a purpose.

Therick67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:35 PM
  #91
Therick67
Registered User
 
Therick67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South of Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 4,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
So when he was younger he didn't fight 4th line goons? You mean like Eric Boulton? BJ Crombeen? Mike Brown? Ivanans?

I love it. Lucic can't fight Laraque because that would be a bad trade off for the Bruins. But fighting Joseph Melichar, or Ivanans is a fair trade off for the Bruins?

Is that the contention? That Lucic is only as valuable as Ivanans?
I'm not sure how you got any of that out of what I posted.

The build up to that game was Laraque was going to go after Lucic. Clod put a stop to it before it happened becuase everyone knew it was coming.

I don't recall any build up to any of the fights you mentioned above.

Therick67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:37 PM
  #92
deliciouspie
the best post
 
deliciouspie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: sf, austin, here
Country: United States
Posts: 2,778
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to deliciouspie
to be fair, i think the "leadership" stuff is more fatuous than fighting so I'm at least consistent

deliciouspie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:37 PM
  #93
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Because Komisarek is not a goon. He may have fallen in stature since, but when he first fought Lucic, he was considered to be a top-line defenseman.

There is a big difference between a fight sparked by emotion/circumstance and one initiated by "invitation." Laraque's attempted engagement of Lucic was definitely the latter, and Julien was smart to tell Lucic to avoid it. If some Habs fans are still ******** about it, so much the better.
You are drawing distinctions that don't exist. Lucic has fought goons. He has fought goons when not "sparked by emotion/circumstance". Your rather arbitrary decision that there is a distinction between an invitation to fight and a "emotion" fight is your own personal feeling and has no basis in the NHL. Many many fights happen at the dot by "invitation".

And again, Komisarek may have been a player, but was Melichar? Brown? Ivanans? Boll? Crombeen? Boulton? Orr? Why is it that you completely ignore this? Because it doesn't fit your argument?

Lucic has historically accepted fights with fighters who are worse players than him. He has done this over and over.

Laraque, some fight watchers will argue, had never really been beaten in a fight (others will say he lost a couple decisions). Accepting a fight with one stiff while avoiding one with a stiff who is the best fighter seems like ducking.... which is why you don't do it.

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:40 PM
  #94
Artemis
Took the red pill
 
Artemis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Mount Olympus
Country: United States
Posts: 17,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
So it's OK to lose our top line winger for 5 min against crap players he can beat up "in the heat of the moment", but not goons? What about when he went with Sestito, Orr or Carkner?

Let Lucic pick his spots vs whomever he wants...He knows how to do this thing better then we do.
I have absolutely no clue what point you're attempting to make here, sorry. You appear to be contradicting yourself.

Artemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:42 PM
  #95
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
I'm not sure how you got any of that out of what I posted.

The build up to that game was Laraque was going to go after Lucic. Clod put a stop to it before it happened becuase everyone knew it was coming.

I don't recall any build up to any of the fights you mentioned above.
You said that Lucic fought guys like Orr when he was older, and that he was younger when Laraque wanted to go. But Lucic fought those bums I mentioned when he was younger.

Why was he able to fight some end of the bench goons when he was younger but not Laraque?

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:43 PM
  #96
Artemis
Took the red pill
 
Artemis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Mount Olympus
Country: United States
Posts: 17,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
You are drawing distinctions that don't exist. Lucic has fought goons. He has fought goons when not "sparked by emotion/circumstance". Your rather arbitrary decision that there is a distinction between an invitation to fight and a "emotion" fight is your own personal feeling and has no basis in the NHL. Many many fights happen at the dot by "invitation".

And again, Komisarek may have been a player, but was Melichar? Brown? Ivanans? Boll? Crombeen? Boulton? Orr? Why is it that you completely ignore this? Because it doesn't fit your argument?

Lucic has historically accepted fights with fighters who are worse players than him. He has done this over and over.

Laraque, some fight watchers will argue, had never really been beaten in a fight (others will say he lost a couple decisions). Accepting a fight with one stiff while avoiding one with a stiff who is the best fighter seems like ducking.... which is why you don't do it.
Yeah, OK, you'd better let Lucic know then. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Artemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:43 PM
  #97
WBC8
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Da Wood, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 34,476
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I have absolutely no clue what point you're attempting to make here, sorry. You appear to be contradicting yourself.
No, you are saying a first line LW like Lucic shouldn't be fighting a goon like Laraque, or in this case it would be Scott.. You let him make the decision...not the coach...him. Especially when nobody complains about losing him when he beats the tar out of someone...

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:45 PM
  #98
Dr Quincy
Registered User
 
Dr Quincy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I have absolutely no clue what point you're attempting to make here, sorry. You appear to be contradicting yourself.
His point is clear, and the only self-contradiction I see is yours.

YOU say that Lucic doesn't fight goons, only "players" because it's not worth losing Lucic in a fight vs a goon.

But that's not truth. Either you don't know those facts (but they've been pointed out to you, so now ignorance can't be an excuse) or you are ignoring them.

Lucic has fought a bunch of 4th line bums before. So that can't be your excuse for his not fighting Laraque. So if not wanting to lose Lucic for 5 min to a bum of a player (which they've allowed him to do many many times in his career) isn't the reason... what do you suppose the reason is? I'd love to know your thinking on that.

Dr Quincy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:46 PM
  #99
Therick67
Registered User
 
Therick67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South of Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 4,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
You said that Lucic fought guys like Orr when he was older, and that he was younger when Laraque wanted to go. But Lucic fought those bums I mentioned when he was younger.

Why was he able to fight some end of the bench goons when he was younger but not Laraque?
Clod said he told Lucic not to fight Laraque. Clod was trying to protect a 19 yr old from fighting a guy who at one time was a great fighter.
That game had a build up to it, everyone knew what was going to happen.

Therick67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2013, 07:46 PM
  #100
DOGSTARMAN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,971
vCash: 500
>>Why do players grow beards in the playoffs. They do it because they think it helps. Do you think facial hair increases a team's chance to win?
So to answer your question: Just because a team THINKS something helps them win doesn't mean it does.

We're going to make that conclusion here and essentially overrule what the players, coaches, GMs, believe? I don't know man... that's a pretty self assured pose to strike for fans.

>>Oh, and also, to answer your question, because Shawn Thornton does other things besides fight.

Eh, c'mon now. Thornton is one of the better players amongst fighters in the league, meaning legit fighters, enforcers, heavyweights, etc. His skill level is passable for that type of player. But it's the only reason in the league. If he fought 2 times per year, he would have 5 NHL games on his resume.

DOGSTARMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:35 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.