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Old
01-14-2013, 07:41 PM
  #326
NJDevs26
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I love that that clown Melrose thought the defense was going to get so much worse because PARISE left lol. Never mind we have a stable full of quality defense or that Parise wasn't actually a defenseman, Marty's going to see soooo much more rubber because Parise's not here. What a crock.

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01-14-2013, 07:43 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
I love that that clown Melrose thought the defense was going to get so much worse because PARISE left lol. Never mind we have a stable full of quality defense or that Parise wasn't actually a defenseman, Marty's going to see soooo much more rubber because Parise's not here. What a crock.
Melrose probably thinks we still play the trap like many of the mainstream hockey media still do.

Parise had nothing to do with Marty not seeing a lot of rubber. One of the main reasons Marty doesn't see a lot of rubber is because of his ability to handle the puck, and keep it out of the zone. When Moose played I think we averaged a few more shots on goal against per game.

I'd maybe accept the argument Parise may have had something to do with seeing less shots against on the PK. At even strength hell no.

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01-14-2013, 07:45 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
It has to do with playing level vs expected playing level. I expect Greene to be a top pairing D-man on this team. I expect Zidlicky to be solid on the PP. They consistently do that.

I expect Clarkson to score 15-20 goals a season. He just hit 30. I expect Tallinder to be a traffic cone. In the SCF, he looked like a decent hockey player.

The latter two are the types you trade. GMs care more about what the player has done recently. When they see the tape, they'll see those two guys better than they really are, and that's how you get maximum value out of a trade. If the players keep up the "over their head" pace, then you got fair value. If they regress to normal, you got a steal. Very rarely does a player play above his normal abilities, get dealt, and continue to improve. I guess someone like Andrew Ladd would be an example. Most GMs know where their own guys should be.
I guess the real difference is also that you consider Greene a top pairing defenseman, when I think he really is a good middle-bottom pair Dman in the NHL - no better than say an Oduya...who we traded at his peak value to get Kovy...and since Zid was a healthy scratch in Minnesota (albeit misused) I think it very possible they both regress to the mean this year.

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01-14-2013, 07:52 PM
  #329
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Odontya wasn't on Greene's level. He did have that anomaly season where he was a +28 or something leading the team in that category. Mike Mottau also had a +26 or something one year too! I figured with all the pucks he helped the other team deflect into his own net that he would have been a -500000000!

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01-14-2013, 08:27 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by billingtons ghost View Post
I guess the real difference is also that you consider Greene a top pairing defenseman, when I think he really is a good middle-bottom pair Dman in the NHL - no better than say an Oduya...who we traded at his peak value to get Kovy...and since Zid was a healthy scratch in Minnesota (albeit misused) I think it very possible they both regress to the mean this year.
I don't think Greene is a top pairing D-man anywhere, just for this team. I trust him the most out of any of our 8 guys in any situation. That's the reason I don't want to see him move. I thought we overpaid him as a UFA, but in hindsight it looks like a steal.

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01-14-2013, 08:51 PM
  #331
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I've never been a huge Andy Greene fan, but he was absolutely stellar the end of the season into the playoffs and was a big reason along with Salvador and Fayne that the defense really came through.

Hopefully there will be a seamless transition from Robinson to Stevens and Greene will continue that into next year.

I cringed when Lou gave him that contract, but as it turned out, Greene under Lemaire was more the norm, than the Greene that played under MacLean.

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01-14-2013, 08:53 PM
  #332
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Hopefully no one saw their "norm" under Maclean.

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01-14-2013, 09:01 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggers View Post
Hopefully no one saw their "norm" under Maclean.
Granted I'm not old enough to remember the early to mid 80s teams well enough, but the MacLean Devils were the worst Devils hockey I've ever seen. I mean it was painful to watch and hurt to watch some of the guys like Elias and Brodeur just at a loss for words.

Then to watch Lemaire and the run we went on, was just crazy.

As I said before, we as Devils fans, can't say we've been bored at all the last few years. Lots of excitement and ups and downs.

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01-14-2013, 09:45 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor Zach View Post
I cringed when Lou gave him that contract, but as it turned out, Greene under Lemaire was more the norm, than the Greene that played under MacLean.
Ya, I worried about that too. He wasn't good under Sutter either, and so the only coach who had ever gotten anything good from him was the twice-retired Lemaire. Greene did well under DeBoer and I hope it continues that way.

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01-14-2013, 09:51 PM
  #335
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Once they all got comfortable with DeBoer's blueprint for the team, seemed to me that mostly all the veteran blueliners started to play above my expectations.

(Exception: Tallinder, since he was out as the team started to settle down)

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01-14-2013, 09:59 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor Zach View Post
Granted I'm not old enough to remember the early to mid 80s teams well enough, but the MacLean Devils were the worst Devils hockey I've ever seen. I mean it was painful to watch and hurt to watch some of the guys like Elias and Brodeur just at a loss for words.

Then to watch Lemaire and the run we went on, was just crazy.

As I said before, we as Devils fans, can't say we've been bored at all the last few years. Lots of excitement and ups and downs.
I'm old enough to remember the 80s or at least some of them. I was young, and didn't understand the game as well as I do now either like many fans when they first start watching. The first half of the 10/11 season was probably as bad or worse than the 80s team when you take into consideration a few things.

Back then scoring was much higher. At both ends. Goals against, and goals for those days was at least a game per game higher on each end on average. The goalies didn't clog up the entire net. Now they do, but the net is the same size. Those teams actually played defense that was close to competent even though well below league average. The Maclean Devils did not even play fundamental defense. The 80s Devils also had some ****** rosters. The 10/11 team didn't have as ****** of a roster considering what they did the year before with mostly the same personnel, and what they did the half season after. Aside from the carousel of bottom pairing defensemen.

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01-15-2013, 08:09 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Melrose probably thinks we still play the trap like many of the mainstream hockey media still do.

Parise had nothing to do with Marty not seeing a lot of rubber. One of the main reasons Marty doesn't see a lot of rubber is because of his ability to handle the puck, and keep it out of the zone. When Moose played I think we averaged a few more shots on goal against per game.

I'd maybe accept the argument Parise may have had something to do with seeing less shots against on the PK. At even strength hell no.
Shots Against Per Minute:
11-12
Brodeur: 0.43
Hedberg: 0.45

10-11
Brodeur: 0.42
Hedberg: 0.45

Assuming quality of opponent was similar, seems like there's a slight difference in Brodeur's favor.

However, a good puck possession / forechecking forward can definitely lower shots against amounts. If the puck is in the other end of the ice, the opposition won't get shots.

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01-15-2013, 08:29 AM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
I love that that clown Melrose thought the defense was going to get so much worse because PARISE left lol. Never mind we have a stable full of quality defense or that Parise wasn't actually a defenseman, Marty's going to see soooo much more rubber because Parise's not here. What a crock.
Don't you know? Melrose knows everything about hockey. He learned everything he knows from Ballard.

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01-15-2013, 10:11 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Shots Against Per Minute:
11-12
Brodeur: 0.43
Hedberg: 0.45

10-11
Brodeur: 0.42
Hedberg: 0.45

Assuming quality of opponent was similar, seems like there's a slight difference in Brodeur's favor.

However, a good puck possession / forechecking forward can definitely lower shots against amounts. If the puck is in the other end of the ice, the opposition won't get shots.
One of the major, but seldom talked about reasons the Devils shot totals (and other scorer-discretion stats) are so low is that our official scorer is historically and consistently among the stingiest in the league.

Related:
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/defending-brodeur
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/31/did-...-roy-and-hasek

I also don't think that Melrose is off-base if his assertion is that we might give up some more goals now that Parise isn't around. It's seems pretty logical that losing one of the better defensive forwards in the league would have that effect.

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01-15-2013, 10:40 PM
  #340
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Melrose is probably not so wrong, but it's the smugness in the way he makes the prediction that annoys me.

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01-15-2013, 10:47 PM
  #341
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Hopefully no more Parise means no more of this.



This pretty much describes what Zach Parise did in the SCF.

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