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Fighting to increase dramatically this year?

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Old
01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #101
Dr Quincy
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Yeah, OK, you'd better let Lucic know then. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
I'm laughing that you actually took the time to write that as some sort of reasoned response to an argument you couldn't refute.

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01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
LOL I remember someone here, can't remember who it was.. who suggested that Lucic go after Kessel the 1st time they played.

Laraque, when he was at his best, was the best fighter in the league. I can understand someone turning him down, but don't deny that he turned him down.
No one can deny the fact that Lucic said no to Laraque, he did, more than once. He has also said no to plenty other guys. So has Shawn Thornton, so has John Scott, so has Steve MacIntyre, so has Jody Shelley, so has Parros.

Guys don't fight for the sake of fighting everytime someone taps them and says you wanna go. Nor should they be expected to. The only reason Lucic gets shelled for saying no to Laraque is because the habs made a huge spectacle out of it by having Laroque chase him around all game, the french media ate it up, and habs fans cling to it for dear life as the only time in the past 20 years they've looked even remotely tough.

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01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #103
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http://www.thebruinsblog.net/2011/03...liot-to-fight/

“Well, he fought [Krejci]. He’s pretty tough when he fights [Krejci] but when he has to fight a guy his own size he clearly won’t do it,” Lucic told TheBruinsBlog.net in a 1-on-1 chat after practice today at Ristuccia Arena.

Couldn't the same be said about beating up Komisarek (he has size, but everyone knows he cannot fight well) and not fighting BGL?

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01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Clod said he told Lucic not to fight Laraque. Clod was trying to protect a 19 yr old from fighting a guy who at one time was a great fighter.
That game had a build up to it, everyone knew what was going to happen.
Clode?

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01-14-2013, 08:52 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
>>Why do players grow beards in the playoffs. They do it because they think it helps. Do you think facial hair increases a team's chance to win?
So to answer your question: Just because a team THINKS something helps them win doesn't mean it does.

We're going to make that conclusion here and essentially overrule what the players, coaches, GMs, believe? I don't know man... that's a pretty self assured pose to strike for fans.
while i'm usually all for arguing from expertise, the whole field of stats and how it relates to sports is relatively new enough that i feel comfortable saying the following

a whole lot of decisions made in sports, of which hockey is a type of sport, are without any sort of statistical merit, often to the detriment of the team

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01-14-2013, 08:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
His point is clear, and the only self-contradiction I see is yours.

YOU say that Lucic doesn't fight goons, only "players" because it's not worth losing Lucic in a fight vs a goon.

But that's not truth. Either you don't know those facts (but they've been pointed out to you, so now ignorance can't be an excuse) or you are ignoring them.

Lucic has fought a bunch of 4th line bums before. So that can't be your excuse for his not fighting Laraque. So if not wanting to lose Lucic for 5 min to a bum of a player (which they've allowed him to do many many times in his career) isn't the reason... what do you suppose the reason is? I'd love to know your thinking on that.
Nothing is "one size fits all." Circumstances change, situations change. You claim Lucic didn't fight Laraque because he was "afraid" of him. Julien refuted that. Lucic did not fight Laraque because that's what the Canadiens wanted him to do. Why should he oblige the Canadiens?

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01-14-2013, 08:59 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by hopkinsj31 View Post
No one can deny the fact that Lucic said no to Laraque, he did, more than once. He has also said no to plenty other guys. So has Shawn Thornton, so has John Scott, so has Steve MacIntyre, so has Jody Shelley, so has Parros.

Guys don't fight for the sake of fighting everytime someone taps them and says you wanna go. Nor should they be expected to. The only reason Lucic gets shelled for saying no to Laraque is because the habs made a huge spectacle out of it by having Laroque chase him around all game, the french media ate it up, and habs fans cling to it for dear life as the only time in the past 20 years they've looked even remotely tough.
It does happen all the time, but Lucic did it so he's chicken. It's not like he went out and played a good game and scored a goal or anything.

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01-14-2013, 09:10 PM
  #108
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It's important for a player to be able to choose when they fight. If lucic takes the bait every time every goon calls him out he will never be the player he can be.

It doesn't have to be a choice between playing tough and playing smart. If they roll Scott out against Boston's top line to shadow lucic it's a big advantage for Boston to keep the puck in play.

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01-14-2013, 09:16 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
while i'm usually all for arguing from expertise, the whole field of stats and how it relates to sports is relatively new enough that i feel comfortable saying the following

a whole lot of decisions made in sports, of which hockey is a type of sport, are without any sort of statistical merit, often to the detriment of the team
The field of sports statistics right now is like an MP3 recorded at a bit rate of 16Kbs. They are formative and inexact enough that a lot of meaning is sifting through the grainy models and measurements that are fashionable. Just because there is not a formula or stat out there that captures how certain things influence outcome and how variables conflate in meaningful ways does not mean it does not happen or matter. Deciding "statistical merit" is a highly subjective, not objective, endeavor.

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01-14-2013, 09:18 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
It's important for a player to be able to choose when they fight. If lucic takes the bait every time every goon calls him out he will never be the player he can be.

It doesn't have to be a choice between playing tough and playing smart. If they roll Scott out against Boston's top line to shadow lucic it's a big advantage for Boston to keep the puck in play.
How about this? Jan 31st Buffalo comes in and starts Scott at RW. You line up Lucic there- tell him he has your blessing and that's it? Ive always tried to deal with the inevitable right away. Then move on.

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01-14-2013, 09:28 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
How about this? Jan 31st Buffalo comes in and starts Scott at RW. You line up Lucic there- tell him he has your blessing and that's it? Ive always tried to deal with the inevitable right away. Then move on.
No way. Tell lucic to play his game and fill the net when scott's on the ice. If Scott wants to go and will force the issue then he can. What was so funny about Laraque was that he kept asking "pretty please?"

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01-14-2013, 09:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
No way. Tell lucic to play his game and fill the net when scott's on the ice. If Scott wants to go and will force the issue then he can. What was so funny about Laraque was that he kept asking "pretty please?"
Yeah Scott is cut from the same mold or used to be... He never fought Kassian or McGrattan in the West... I don't think he has the intestinal fortitude for the east to be honest..He only dressed for 6 games with the Rangers...only 5 fights all year..He's not that great of a fighter..

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01-14-2013, 09:53 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Yeah Scott is cut from the same mold or used to be... He never fought Kassian or McGrattan in the West... I don't think he has the intestinal fortitude for the east to be honest..He only dressed for 6 games with the Rangers...only 5 fights all year..He's not that great of a fighter..
Steve McKenna says hello. Scott is effective but not scary - see parros and westgarth fights, did all you could ask him too. Will be interesting to see if Ruff actually plays him. He's about as good on skates as Mitch Fritz out there.

If Toronto plays MacIntyre, that would be different. Guy is a beast. Not sure who wants to go with him in the east

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01-14-2013, 10:08 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Why do players grow beards in the playoffs. They do it because they think it helps. Do you think facial hair increases a team's chance to win?

So to answer your question: Just because a team THINKS something helps them win doesn't mean it does. Teams think that punting on 4th and short most of the time is the right way. Most analyses of it say that if you went for it on 4th down every single time you'd actually be making the smarter move.

Conventional wisdom isn't always correct.

Oh, and also, to answer your question, because Shawn Thornton does other things besides fight.
Are you for real with this stuff? You think that players grow beards because it helps them win?

You also think that every GM in league is wrong for thinking that adding toughness helps them? GM's in the NHL have been adding toughness and carrying guys that fight to their teams forever. They're all wrong?

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01-14-2013, 10:11 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Are you for real with this stuff? You think that players grow beards because it helps them win?

You also think that every GM in league is wrong for thinking that adding toughness helps them? GM's in the NHL have been adding toughness and carrying guys that fight to their teams forever. They're all wrong?
Those guys just don't know how to read stats. Some would say

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01-14-2013, 10:22 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Those guys just don't know how to read stats. Some would say
I just don't get where they are coming from.

The Bruins only have a few guys that don't fight or can't fight. That's by design and they're a damn good team and other teams take notice.

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01-14-2013, 10:30 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
I just don't get where they are coming from.

The Bruins only have a few guys that don't fight or can't fight. That's by design and they're a damn good team and other teams take notice.
There's a debate to have about fighting in hockey and I respect some of the folks here who have strong feelings against it. I just have a problem with the certitude of some people and how they say that, effectively, all the people working in the NHL are wrong. At the very least, it's not black and white.

Lots of different kinds of teams win in the NHL. Our team is more rambunctious than many. That works for Boston and seems to fit what this market wants. It's all good.

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01-14-2013, 10:34 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
There's a debate to have about fighting in hockey and I respect some of the folks here who have strong feelings against it. I just have a problem with the certitude of some people and how they say that, effectively, all the people working in the NHL are wrong. At the very least, it's not black and white.

Lots of different kinds of teams win in the NHL. Our team is more rambunctious than many. That works for Boston and seems to fit what this market wants. It's all good.
The removal of fighting is something that I don't want to see, at all, even at the Jr. level. I know that my views are seen as barbaric by some. But fighting is a necessity and a lot better than the second option(cheap shots). It's not as easy of removing fighting and everything stays the same. Fights act almost like a reset when the tension gets too high.

I agree with you, all those GMs are not wrong.

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01-14-2013, 11:21 PM
  #119
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dr quincy are you saying lucic should accept every challenge he gets from the goons. Yes he does accept here and there orr rosehill carkner bolton. However if he always said yes he would be fighting these guys every game . I watched orr challenge chara all game something like laraque-lucic-----was chara scared for his life. These guys simply cant take every invitation. I dont think lucic has a chance against scott or laraque but I dont think hes scared of anyone. If hes going to fight a goon he might as well take the fights hes pretty close with the guys in fighting. I know he lost to orr but that was because he got caught with a big punch ---their definitley competitive fight wise.

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01-14-2013, 11:26 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
His point is clear, and the only self-contradiction I see is yours.

YOU say that Lucic doesn't fight goons, only "players" because it's not worth losing Lucic in a fight vs a goon.

But that's not truth. Either you don't know those facts (but they've been pointed out to you, so now ignorance can't be an excuse) or you are ignoring them.

Lucic has fought a bunch of 4th line bums before. So that can't be your excuse for his not fighting Laraque. So if not wanting to lose Lucic for 5 min to a bum of a player (which they've allowed him to do many many times in his career) isn't the reason... what do you suppose the reason is? I'd love to know your thinking on that.
Were you the only Bruins fan in the world hoping a 19 year old Lucic would fight and have Laraque fall on top of him and drive their fan base into a frenzy?

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01-14-2013, 11:30 PM
  #121
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whambamcam8 the reason Scott has so few fights is because hes not a fight guys want too often. I cant recall seeing him ever lose a fight. I have seen guys hang in with him but thats about the best you can do. when you see like a westgarth fight or engelland its flat out scary.

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01-14-2013, 11:31 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
http://www.thebruinsblog.net/2011/03...liot-to-fight/

“Well, he fought [Krejci]. He’s pretty tough when he fights [Krejci] but when he has to fight a guy his own size he clearly won’t do it,” Lucic told TheBruinsBlog.net in a 1-on-1 chat after practice today at Ristuccia Arena.

Couldn't the same be said about beating up Komisarek (he has size, but everyone knows he cannot fight well) and not fighting BGL?
What the hell?! A 19 year old Lucic was nowhere on the same level as Laraque. The same cannot even be close to said about the Komisarek situation (Komisarek picked on LUCIC for a while).

Why does it even matter!? The point is, the Bruins play better when they are engaged and the Bruins are the toughest team in the league by far. Therefore it leads me to believe that more fights can only be a good thing.

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01-14-2013, 11:38 PM
  #123
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This thread has gotten painfully out of control.

To answer the title of this thread at least; yes, I anticipate fighting to increase just based on the fact that it's all in conference games. Especially so for the Bruins with the majority of Northeast teams beefing up in the offseason.

I think the Buffalo games are gonna be **** fests and I hope multiple people feed Ott fists.

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01-14-2013, 11:48 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
You are drawing distinctions that don't exist. Lucic has fought goons. He has fought goons when not "sparked by emotion/circumstance". Your rather arbitrary decision that there is a distinction between an invitation to fight and a "emotion" fight is your own personal feeling and has no basis in the NHL. Many many fights happen at the dot by "invitation".

And again, Komisarek may have been a player, but was Melichar? Brown? Ivanans? Boll? Crombeen? Boulton? Orr? Why is it that you completely ignore this? Because it doesn't fit your argument?

Lucic has historically accepted fights with fighters who are worse players than him. He has done this over and over.

Laraque, some fight watchers will argue, had never really been beaten in a fight (others will say he lost a couple decisions). Accepting a fight with one stiff while avoiding one with a stiff who is the best fighter seems like ducking.... which is why you don't do it.
I have a horrible memory for games and early in his career Lucic was more likely to fight the other teams 4rth liner/goon as he was trying to make a name for himself.

As he started scoring and becoming a dominant PF and important part of the team of course he is gunna start ducking fights.

That said Lucic is still a beast and I'm sure if you look at most of his fights in recent history it's when the Bruins are down 1 or 2 and need a spark or down 3 or 4 and he is just pissed off. Or tied and in a sluggish/frusterating game.... Lucic isn't dumb

Had that Mtl game been a blow out or Mtl had a 1 goal lead with 10 - 12 mins left I doubt Lucic would have been ducking Laraque but it never happened and you have to listen/read nonsense that he was scared.

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01-14-2013, 11:54 PM
  #125
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Yes whambamcam8 I do think you could compare the laraque-lucic thing to the pouliot-lucic thing but I didnt expect pouliot to fight him ---did any of you? Pouliot didnt push krej into that fight just like luc didnt push komiz so Id say nothing needed to be done but if someone a little higher up the latter like ference or campbell shouldve challenged him or if you want it closer in size boychuk

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