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Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
01-12-2013, 06:37 PM
  #326
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I wouldn't guess you would, with all due respect. I learned a lot about the game and the position just from watching Marty. A lot of young goalies tell me that they take a lot from his game...but have so much trouble duplicating his style...even his own son...

In his prime, he was a treat to watch. I rarely say an individual player is worth the price of admission and Brodeur is on that short list, for sure.
Patrick Roy was the only goalie I got that feeling from.

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01-12-2013, 06:44 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
If you rank him so low then it's no wonder you think a Bill Parcells quote can trump a Cruyff quote.

Well, after all you are American too, what more can I say.
So where does he belong Mr. Soccerpants?

Seriously, is he top 5?

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01-12-2013, 10:10 PM
  #328
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To those that are saying Lundqvist hasn't done much in the playoffs, it is useful to keep in mind that his team usually has not given him much goal support.

From 2006 to 2012, the Rangers scoring in the playoffs, not counting empty net goals:
GP - 56
GF - 120
GF/G - 2.14

Roberto Luongo has also faced similar difficulties, although not to the same extent:

2007 to 2012 Canucks scoring in the playoffs:
GP - 64
GF - 150
GF/G - 2.34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
So where does he belong Mr. Soccerpants?

Seriously, is he top 5?
OT: I won't pretend to know much about the history of soccer, but in most lists I've seen Cruyff is in the top 5 with Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, and Di Stefano, in some order, and occasionally you'll see Platini, (Brazilian) Ronaldo, or Zidane in the mix with them too. But I don't think I've ever seen Cruyff listed outside the top 10 before.

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01-13-2013, 06:51 AM
  #329
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
To those that are saying Lundqvist hasn't done much in the playoffs, it is useful to keep in mind that his team usually has not given him much goal support.

From 2006 to 2012, the Rangers scoring in the playoffs, not counting empty net goals:
GP - 56
GF - 120
GF/G - 2.14

Roberto Luongo has also faced similar difficulties, although not to the same extent:

2007 to 2012 Canucks scoring in the playoffs:
GP - 64
GF - 150
GF/G - 2.34



OT: I won't pretend to know much about the history of soccer, but in most lists I've seen Cruyff is in the top 5 with Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, and Di Stefano, in some order, and occasionally you'll see Platini, (Brazilian) Ronaldo, or Zidane in the mix with them too. But I don't think I've ever seen Cruyff listed outside the top 10 before.
Where's Messi?

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01-13-2013, 07:16 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Patrick Roy was the only goalie I got that feeling from.
Hmm, i rarely post here partly becouse i'm not in the voters category, but i have to add Hasek here. Come on man, he was all over the place and got the job done. I can still see him singlehandedly winning the 1998 olympics. They should have given only him a medal and then melted down the rest for charity.

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01-13-2013, 08:40 AM
  #331
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this is an interesting conversation, so I don't want to delete it, but please steer back to the topic at hand (the 15 goalies up for consideration).

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01-13-2013, 10:47 AM
  #332
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Not every .900 game is equal, but I had the numbers lying around:


Playoff Games
Cloutier: 60% under .900
Bryzgalov: 47% under .900
Niemi: 44% under .900
Nabokov: 41% under .900
Lundqvist: 40% under .900
Fleury: 39% under .900
Miller: 38% under .900
Theodore: 38% under .900
Ward: 37% under .900
Giguere: 37% under .900
Osgood: 36% under .900
Luongo: 33% under .900
Kiprusoff: 30% under .900

Quick: 25% under .900
Thomas: 22% under .900

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01-13-2013, 11:50 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Hmm, i rarely post here partly becouse i'm not in the voters category, but i have to add Hasek here. Come on man, he was all over the place and got the job done. I can still see him singlehandedly winning the 1998 olympics. They should have given only him a medal and then melted down the rest for charity.
I don't want to get too far off-topic, but the Czechs did outshoot Canada in that game.

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01-13-2013, 12:54 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Not every .900 game is equal, but I had the numbers lying around:


Playoff Games
Cloutier: 60% under .900
Bryzgalov: 47% under .900
Niemi: 44% under .900
Nabokov: 41% under .900
Lundqvist: 40% under .900
Fleury: 39% under .900
Miller: 38% under .900
Theodore: 38% under .900
Ward: 37% under .900
Giguere: 37% under .900
Osgood: 36% under .900
Luongo: 33% under .900
Kiprusoff: 30% under .900

Quick: 25% under .900
Thomas: 22% under .900
I'd just like to point out how incredible it is that he's at SIXTY PERCENT under .900. That is maybe the most mind blowing (not necessarily surprising though) stat to me that we've seen revealed so far in this process hahaha.

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01-14-2013, 05:16 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I don't want to get too far off-topic, but the Czechs did outshoot Canada in that game.
It was'nt just that game, he was great all along. Obviously the czechs played a smart game with what they got, but without him it would'nt have worked.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 01-14-2013 at 05:27 AM.
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01-14-2013, 01:16 PM
  #336
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please don't send me any votes until tonight - I have to clear out room in my PM box first. Yes, even mods eventually run out of room.

I'll post here again (and PM you as always) after I'm ready.

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01-14-2013, 01:50 PM
  #337
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
please don't send me any votes until tonight - I have to clear out room in my PM box first. Yes, even mods eventually run out of room.

I'll post here again (and PM you as always) after I'm ready.
I'll take round 10 votes if you want. better that I do it four of ten times, instead of three.

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01-14-2013, 03:38 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Not every .900 game is equal, but I had the numbers lying around:


Playoff Games
Cloutier: 60% under .900
Bryzgalov: 47% under .900
Niemi: 44% under .900
Nabokov: 41% under .900
Lundqvist: 40% under .900
Fleury: 39% under .900
Miller: 38% under .900
Theodore: 38% under .900
Ward: 37% under .900
Giguere: 37% under .900
Osgood: 36% under .900
Luongo: 33% under .900
Kiprusoff: 30% under .900

Quick: 25% under .900
Thomas: 22% under .900
The converse of this is that when Lundqvist has been good in the playoffs, he's been very good. He's had a save percentage of 0.950 or above in 33% of his playoff games, which is almost a guaranteed win. It's a big reason why Lundqvist has an overall playoff save percentage of .917 vs .916 for Luongo (which is effectively the same).

5 shutouts in 61 career playoff games for Luongo, 6 shutouts in 55 career playoff games for Lundqvist.

Luongo's playoff stats might be helped by the fact that he didn't play a playoff game until he was 27 years old. Lundqvist was 23 when he posted 3 games under 0.900 in 2006 (Kevin Weekes was in goal for the other game when the Rangers were swept and also posted a sub-.900. Not that either goalie played well, but the Rangers team defense was an absolute mess).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-14-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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01-14-2013, 06:25 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'll take round 10 votes if you want. better that I do it four of ten times, instead of three.
Yeah, you can do next time. I cleared out space, so I can take votes now - as always everyone listed in post 2 of this thread can vote.

Remember you can also vote on whether or not to extend our final list from 40 to 50 names.

Send votes by 7PM E.S.T on Wednesday

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01-14-2013, 07:02 PM
  #340
Mike Farkas
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Does a simple majority overrule 40 to 50?

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01-14-2013, 07:36 PM
  #341
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I added a few more games to this.

Some stats for Ottawa in 1930-31.

PlayerGPMINWLTGAGAASOH GPH MINH WH LH TH GAH GAAH SOR GPR MINR WR LR TR GAR GAARSO
Beveridge9520080323.6906340050152.6503180030175.670
Connell362190102241103.013171020692492.8821911704132613.131
Opponents44271030104912.0192213501642411.8262213601462502.213

For games I found shot totals for

PlayerGPMINWLTGAGAASOGSV%SOSOG/60H GPH MINH WH LH TH GAH GAAH SOGH SV%H SOH SOG/60R GPR MINR WR LR TR GAR GAAR SOGR SV%R SOSOG/60
Beveridge8460070303.91235.872030.656340050152.65159.906025.412120020157.5076.803038.00
Connell2213306133582.62759.924134.2412710372312.62381.919032.2010620361272.61378.929136.58
Opponents2917902063602.01930.935531.1712740831282.27359.922229.111710501232321.83571.944332.63

I'm finding about half the games have shot totals.

The Falcons had a record 31 shots in the 2nd period of the December 14th game vs the Rangers. Roach stopped all 62 shots for the shutout.

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01-14-2013, 07:48 PM
  #342
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Does a simple majority overrule 40 to 50?
What do you think?

We could require an absolute majority to change things - which means 14 of the 27 "registered" voters need to vote for it. Which in reality means 14 of 21-23 still active voters.

Or we could just require a majority of the votes we do get (which has been hovering at 21 for a few rounds).

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01-14-2013, 08:07 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What do you think?

We could require an absolute majority to change things - which means 14 of the 27 "registered" voters need to vote for it. Which in reality means 14 of 21-23 still active voters.

Or we could just require a majority of the votes we do get (which has been hovering at 21 for a few rounds).
I don't think.

Disclaimer: I'm biased against the idea of changing it. That said, for the duration of the project, it was said to be 40 but it just takes 11 people to go, "20% more!" or whatever it is...seems a little flimsy. On the topic of flims, frankly, there isn't much talent left in the tank really. We got a few goalies on the board that literally have two seasons of being noteworthy and are passing it off as an all-time best career, did it get to that point on the d-man list? To me, it's just not really worth discussing, with all due respect. I mean, if Roberto Luongo gets a shutout on Saturday he's gonna jump up the rank two spots! Plus, the ATD probably has some overlapping people in it and they might want to turn their attention to that over deciding what one-hit wonder was higher on the UK charts than the other...

I'll rank the top-5 Sutter's ever...not the top 20 though...I don't know their dog's name...

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01-14-2013, 08:10 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I don't think.

Disclaimer: I'm biased against the idea of changing it. That said, for the duration of the project, it was said to be 40 but it just takes 11 people to go, "20% more!" or whatever it is...seems a little flimsy. On the topic of flims, frankly, there isn't much talent left in the tank really. We got a few goalies on the board that literally have two seasons of being noteworthy and are passing it off as an all-time best career, did it get to that point on the d-man list? To me, it's just not really worth discussing, with all due respect. I mean, if Roberto Luongo gets a shutout on Saturday he's gonna jump up the rank two spots! Plus, the ATD probably has some overlapping people in it and they might want to turn their attention to that over deciding what one-hit wonder was higher on the UK charts than the other...

I'll rank the top-5 Sutter's ever...not the top 20 though...I don't know their dog's name...
I really don't see why you have such a dim opinion of goalies at this level. There are several Hockey Hall of Famers, some of them NHL-era who haven't even been added yet. And it's pretty tough to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame as a goalie.

I think we'll require 14 yes votes to continue.

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01-14-2013, 08:27 PM
  #345
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I really don't see why you have such a dim opinion of goalies at this level. There are several Hockey Hall of Famers, some of them NHL-era who haven't even been added yet. And it's pretty tough to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame as a goalie.

I think we'll require 14 yes votes to continue.
I haven't liked the talent left for a while really, to be honest. Not sure why, I was just expecting more I think...maybe I'm just a curmudgeon...carry on as the group sees fit, I'm not gonna throw my crayons across the floor regardless of the decision...

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01-14-2013, 08:46 PM
  #346
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The converse of this is that when Lundqvist has been good in the playoffs, he's been very good. He's had a save percentage of 0.950 or above in 33% of his playoff games, which is almost a guaranteed win. It's a big reason why Lundqvist has an overall playoff save percentage of .917 vs .916 for Luongo (which is effectively the same).
Well, Luongo has been at .950 or above in 33% of his playoff games too, so I doubt that has much to do with it. The reason they're close in overall save percentage is because with Luongo against Chicago and Boston, when it rains it pours. Those 6, 7, and 8-goal games (of which there are four of them) absolutely kill his save percentage, even if with the exception of Game 6 in 2009, they don't really hurt his team after the first few goals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
5 shutouts in 61 career playoff games for Luongo, 6 shutouts in 55 career playoff games for Lundqvist.
Can't really fault Luongo for not getting credited for a shutout in Game 5 against Dallas in 2007. 66 minutes of shutout hockey until Dallas scored in overtime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Luongo's playoff stats might be helped by the fact that he didn't play a playoff game until he was 27 years old.
Oh, I doubt that. He was a top-ten save percentage goaltender six times before his first playoff game, but only twice since then.

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01-14-2013, 08:54 PM
  #347
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Oh, I doubt that. He was a top-ten save percentage goaltender six times before his first playoff game, but only twice since then.
Maybe you're right. But the playoffs are often when young "high save percentage" goaltenders fall apart. For example, a 23 year old Henrik Lundqvist, who finished 4th in save percentage in 2005-06.

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01-14-2013, 09:25 PM
  #348
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For games I found shot totals for

PlayerGPMINWLTGAGAASOGSV%SOSOG/60H GPH MINH WH LH TH GAH GAAH SOGH SV%H SOH SOG/60R GPR MINR WR LR TR GAR GAAR SOGR SV%R SOSOG/60
Beveridge8460070303.91235.872030.656340050152.65159.906025.412120020157.5076.803038.00
Connell2213306133582.62759.924134.2412710372312.62381.919032.2010620361272.61378.929136.58
Opponents2917902063602.01930.935531.1712740831282.27359.922229.111710501232321.83571.944332.63

I'm finding about half the games have shot totals.
Odd save percentages. Connell was miles better than Beveridge, but his opponents were considerably better. I can think of a couple conflicting interpretations of what those numbers mean.

Of course the small, incomplete sample might be part of the reason. Interesting numbers though.

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01-14-2013, 09:27 PM
  #349
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Maybe you're right. But the playoffs are often when young "high save percentage" goaltenders fall apart. For example, a 23 year old Henrik Lundqvist, who finished 4th in save percentage in 2005-06.


Fair enough, but for every Henrik Lundqvist in the past 30 years or so, there's a handful of goalies who knock it out of the park in their first playoff. Hextall was 22. Ward was 21. Giguere was 25. Vernon was 22. Roy was 20. Holtby was 22. Bryzgalov was 25. Varlamov was 20. And how about Luongo himself? He was 27, but he didn't struggle with the pressure at all. First playoff: .941. Heck of a way to follow a Hart-nominated season. Vokoun is another one of those "high save percentage" goaltenders. His first playoff? .939.

We're not quite at the point that we should think Luongo would be as bad as Lundqvist was in the playoffs had he gotten the opportunity to play in them during the first 2/3rds of his prime.

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01-14-2013, 09:28 PM
  #350
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Odd save percentages. Connell was miles better than Beveridge, but his opponents were considerably better.

Of course the small, incomplete sample might be part of the reason. Interesting numbers though.
I think it's probably because his opponents were usually legit starters, while Beveridge was a backup.

There seems to have been an enormous difference between the good and the bad goalies back then - look at how terrible Montreal's GAA was in the year between Georges Vezina and George Hainsworth for one example.

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